Family tree

[Bettina]

I tried to search for this question, but didn't have any luck.

 

How far back in my family tree do I have to go where a change would have kept me from being born. For example, someone got killed.

 

Bettina

[Macroscopic]

I tried to search for this question' date=' but didn't have any luck.

 

How far back in my family tree do I have to go where a change would have kept me from being born. For example, someone got killed.

 

Bettina[/quote']

Not very far. If anyone above you on your family tree got killed, you wouldn't have been born.

[Nevermore]

No, what about her Uncles, aunts, cousins, ect.? Your parents, or grandparents, or greatgrandparents ect. need to be killed in order for you to not be born.

[Bettina]

I still need an answer to this. How far back can I really go. How many generations.

 

Bettina

[Phi for All]

I still need an answer to this. How far back can I really go. How many generations.

 

Bettina

You only have to go back to your parents. The event that caused them to meet gets cancelled, they never meet, you aren't born.

 

If you go back any further, your father may not get born but your mother does, but she doesn't have a child with your father, she has a child with another man, but it isn't you.

 

You can go back as far as you want in your geneology, wiping out whole branches of your family tree with accidents and happenstance, but the only thing that keeps YOU from being born is if something stops your mom and dad from getting together.

[Cadmus]

I still need an answer to this. How far back can I really go. How many generations.

If either of your parents had died before you were born, then you would not have been born. Any number of other changes in their relationship could have prevented you from being born. Therefore, your parents is the nearest generation that you might look at. Identical types of changes in either of their parents could have prevented them from being born, which would in turn have prevented your birth. Your parents had parents, who had parents, changes to whom could have prevented you being born. Perhaps you could trace this scenario back as far as the beginning of life on earth, which if it had not started you would not have been born.

 

Does this answer your question? If not, then you might consider rephrasing your question more clearly.

[Bettina]

If either of your parents had died before you were born' date=' then you would not have been born. Any number of other changes in their relationship could have prevented you from being born. Therefore, your parents is the nearest generation that you might look at. Identical types of changes in either of their parents could have prevented them from being born, which would in turn have prevented your birth. Your parents had parents, who had parents, changes to whom could have prevented you being born. Perhaps you could trace this scenario back as far as the beginning of life on earth, which if it had not started you would not have been born.

 

Does this answer your question? If not, then you might consider rephrasing your question more clearly.[/quote']

 

I'll try.

 

If I could stop time, and reverse it, I would see my fathers father, then his fathers father, etc etc. When I reach father10, I make father10 marry the sister of the girl he originally married.

 

I start time again, and watch it progress. Each family had the same amount of children. Nothing changes in quantity and gender.

 

When I come into existence, would I be me as I am now?

 

I'm not being funny here. I really would like to know.

 

Bettina

 

P.S. Newtonian.....I don't get what you mean.

[coquina]

The movies that starred Micheal J. Fox... go rent them. There's all kinds of weirdness that happens - here's the plot of the first one. As the people above said, you only have to go back in time far enough to stop your parents from meeting.

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088763/plotsummary

 

"Marty McFly is an aspiring musician, but he is not sure of what the future holds for him; first his band was rejected as the performing band for the school dance, and historically, no McFly has succeeded in anything. The only bright spots in his existence are his girlfriend and Emmett Brown, the town crackpot scientist, who is Marty's good friend. Marty was helping brown with his latest invention a time machine, which is fitted into a Delorean. The time machine needs a tremendous amount of power to work, which he gets from plutonium. Now Brown got the plutonium from some Libyans who want him to build a bomb; they find Brown and shoot him, Marty gets into the Delorean and drives off and when he reaches the speed that activates the time machine, he finds himself in 1955, cause that was the date that Brown entered, which was when he first conceived the time machine. Now having already used up all the power of the plutonium, Marty must find a way to get it working, so he can go back to his own time. Marty looks for Brown but before he does, he runs into his father as a teenager, and accidentally interferes with his father's first meeting of Lorraine, his future mother. Marty then goes to see Brown and convinces him that he is from the future and to help him. But when he learns of the amount of power that is needed to power the machine, he tells Marty that it's hopeless cause the only other thing that can generate that much power is a bolt of lightning and it's impossible to determine when and where they will strike, but Marty has with him an old newspaper cliping that states that the town clock tower will be struck by lightning, so they plan to draw the energy from the lightning so they can power the machine. But before they do, Marty must act as cupid for his parents cause it seems that because they never met they won't fall in love and get married and Marty will not exist."

 

 

The further back in time you went, the more people would be affected. For example, if someone had gone back in time and sank the Mayflower, I wouldn't be here. My 8th Grandfather back, was George Soule, who was a passenger on it . There were 102 passengers - assuming they all drowned, none of any of their descendants would be around.

 

http://www.mayflower.org/pilgrim.htm

[Cadmus]

If I could stop time' date=' and reverse it, I would see my fathers father, then his fathers father, etc etc. When I reach father10, I make father10 marry the sister of the girl he originally married.

 

I start time again, and watch it progress. Each family had the same amount of children. Nothing changes in quantity and gender.[/quote']

If father10 marries the sister, father9 would not have been born. Father10 would have had a different son from your grandfather9. That man might have had the same number of children as father9, but none of the children that you know would have been born. You would never have been born.

 

Furthermore, since father9 would have been a different person, he most likely would not have married mother9.

 

Nothing would have been the same. One thing for sure, you would never have been born, since father9 and everyone in between would not have been born.

[Gnieus]

Why don't you imagine you hanging on a chain dangling from some house. Hanging means you are born falling you are not.

 

If any chain piece breaks then you fall and wouldn't be born. Hence the chain of your ancestry would be broken.

 

Your mum and dad are the first ... but any other link would do too.

[Phi for All]

When I come into existence, would I be me as I am now?

No. If you were to change even the time your parents conceived you by one month, a different egg would be fertilized, and the you that exists today would be different.

[Bettina]

No. If you were to change even the time your parents conceived you by one month, a different egg would be fertilized, and the you that exists today would be different.

 

That's what I wanted to know. With all the generations I mentioned, and the scenario I presented, I would still be here, but a different person knowing nothing about the one I am now. My father would have still had a daughter, but it wouldn't be me. Is that correct?

 

Bettina

 

P.S. The chain scenario didnt work for me because it implies that someone was killed. I just wanted to exchange one of the links to a different one and see if the bottom link changed.

[coquina]

My father would have still had a daughter' date=' but it wouldn't be me. Is that correct?

[/quote']

 

Why do you think think your father would have had a daughter? Since the sex of the child is determined by the male, and since a hole different group of sperm have been swimming for the egg, how would you know that one bearing an xx chromosome would fertilize it, rather than one bearing an xy chromosome?

 

Pregnancy might not have happened at all - the particular egg that was released might not have been impregnated. If it was, there might have been a miscarriage.

[Gnieus]

or anything changing anywhere in the line to you would not make you you.

[Bettina]

Why do you think think your father would have had a daughter? Since the sex of the child is determined by the male' date=' and since a hole different group of sperm have been swimming for the egg, how would you know that one bearing an xx chromosome would fertilize it, rather than one bearing an xy chromosome?

 

Pregnancy might not have happened at all - the particular egg that was released might not have been impregnated. If it was, there might have been a miscarriage.[/quote']

 

He had to have a daughter because of the criteria I put in place for my scenario. No other changes would be allowed.

 

Here I am, his daughter. I go back in time 5 or 9 hundred years and see HIS father10 marry one of two sisters. He married sister01. I have a magic button, that when pushed, he marries sister02 instead. They are not twins.

 

Then without changing the rules, everyone else marries who they were originally going to, and have the same amount of kids, same gender.

 

I'm not allowing any changes to occur except the one I made.

 

Now, I'm back in my time, holding the magic button in my hand. I stand in front of my mirror, and push the button. (I love pushing buttons )

 

My father would still have ended up with a daughter. My mother still would have left me. But what would I see when I push that button. Would I:

 

(remember my rules)

 

1. Still be me, look the same, and remember what the button was for.

2. Still be me, look different, and wonder what the button was for.

3. "Someone" is looking in the mirror, sees the button, shrugs her shoulders, and throws it on the dresser.......Who I was is gone.

 

I want to know how close Gnieus is to being correct.

 

Bettina

[5614]

or anything changing anywhere in the line to you would not make you you.

I agree, as soon as you change something the genes are different for a starter.

 

Then different events may have occured etc. but Bettina said everything else was fixed, except the one marriage, in which case the only variable is the marriage, the only thing which varies within that (when everything else is fixed and from Bettina's physical existence point of view) is the output genes.

[Cadmus]

That's what I wanted to know. With all the generations I mentioned, and the scenario I presented, I would still be here, but a different person knowing nothing about the one I am now.

This is incorrect. You would not be here at all. A completely different person would be here. Is your sister no more than you as a different person? No, she is not you. You would not be here. If father10 married differentmother9, the new person of your generaton might be might have very little in comon with you, genetically, as there would be 9 generations of different genes in the body of the new person who is not you.

[Bettina]

Then it's #3....

I face the mirror, push the button, and in that moment I cease to exist.

 

Another girl is there now.

 

Bettina

[Nevermore]

This is incorrect. You would not be here at all. A completely different person would be here. Is your sister no more than you as a different person? No, she is not you. You would not be here. If father10 married differentmother9, the new person of your generaton might be might have very little in comon with you, genetically, as there would be 9 generations of different genes in the body of the new person who is not you.

 

I strongly dissagree, the genes of 5-9 hundred yeas usualy have little affect on you. Bettina would probably still be herself, but slightly different. ie: blonde or red instead of brown hair.

[Phi for All]

I strongly dissagree, the genes of 5-9 hundred yeas usualy have little affect on you. Bettina would probably still be herself, but slightly different. ie: blonde or red instead of brown hair.

Think about it. Completely diffferent sperm with their individual characteristics are involved for every hour of difference in conception. A different egg with it's hereditary information is used every month. This isn't evolutionary change we're talking about, it's hereditary characteristics, what makes a person a person. If Bettina's parents had had another daughter one year after Bettina, the two sisters may not even resemble one another.

[Bettina]

Hmmm....

I showed this thread to my biology teacher who told me that #2, though highly unlikely, is still possible. I would look different, I may even be a boy, but the "soul" peering out of the person in front of the mirror, could still be me. A different me, but still me. Now I'm wondering all over again.

 

Bettina

[Cadmus]

Hmmm....

I showed this thread to my biology teacher who told me that #2' date=' though highly unlikely, is still possible. I would look different, I may even be a boy, but the "soul" peering out of the person in front of the mirror, could still be me. A different me, but still me. Now I'm wondering all over again.

 

Bettina[/quote']

Do you believe in god? I ask because if you believe in god then anything is possible, and my comments based on knowledge and science are worthless.

 

If you are asking from a scientific perspective, then there is absolutely no question at all. You biology teacher is a nut case. If your father and your mother conceived with a different egg and sperm, then you would not be the same soul in a completely different body.

 

If you are asking from a religious perspective, go talk to your priest. If you are asking about science, then there is no question at all. What a nut case your biology teacher is. Shame on your teacher.

[Bettina]

Do you believe in god? I ask because if you believe in god then anything is possible' date=' and my comments based on knowledge and science are worthless.

 

If you are asking from a scientific perspective, then there is absolutely no question at all. You biology teacher is a nut case. If your father and your mother conceived with a different egg and sperm, then you would not be the same soul in a completely different body.

 

If you are asking from a religious perspective, go talk to your priest. If you are asking about science, then there is no question at all. What a nut case your biology teacher is. Shame on your teacher.[/quote']

 

Hehe....I don't blame you for saying that given you don't know him. He is really an excellent teacher, but if, after class, you take him aside to ask him a wayout question, he will offer a way out answer that isn't in the books. It's more his personal feelings and he told me that up front. He never said that as fact.

 

Secondly, no....I don't believe in the God of the bible. Not at all, but I do believe that life after death is very possible.

 

Thirdly..... I know what your thinking.....and no...I'm not a nut case too.

 

Bettina

[Phi for All]

If you are asking about science, then there is no question at all. What a nut case your biology teacher is. Shame on your teacher.

I agree that if you were asking your biology teacher about this from a biological POV, he should not be talking about "souls". There is no scientific evidence of the existence of a soul.

 

If you were asking him from his personal POV, his answer is valid. I still feel it is wrong, from any standpoint. Even God would have had a reason to give your mother all those different eggs.

[Cadmus]

Thirdly..... I know what your thinking.....and no...I'm not a nut case too.

If I thought that you are a nut case, then why would I respond to you as though you are not?

Hehe....I don't blame you for saying that given you don't know him. He is really an excellent teacher, but if, after class, you take him aside to ask him a wayout question, he will offer a way out answer that isn't in the books. It's more his personal feelings and he told me that up front. He never said that as fact.

You introduced him as a biology teacher, not as a person with a personal point of view. Anyway, I can't imagine how a person with any real knowledge of biology might develop such a point of view.