Dreams causing real injuries?

[John Cuthber]

It's possible.

it's also possible that the pixies did it.

But why not just accept the obvious answer,(when it was first posted) rather than pretending it hadn't been answered?

 

Have a look here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

 

The point remains that the Japanese study is not evidence for the brain directly influencing the skin as was claimed.

 

Incidentally, when you said

"Here is the link to the famous Japanese Poison ivy study. It is considered by many proof the mind can cause injury."

Who are the "many" you are talking about- or did you just mean that you think it's "proof" of that?

Edited April 5, 2014 by John Cuthber

[BlueSpike]

I would assume that these people were constantly observed. if they had been scratching I'm sure they wouldve mentioned that.

I dont know how come those allergic to the ivy did not have a reaction when told they were being exposed to a harmless plant. when in fact they had poison ivy rubbed on their arm. are mast cells linked to the brain?

Edited April 5, 2014 by BlueSpike

[Endy0816]

Note: The Japanese Lacquer Tree is referenced, not Poison Ivy. Same oil involved, but not the same plant. ThrivingNow even references a "Poison Ivy-like plant".

 

This might shed some light on the subject:

 

http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/127/did-a-nocebo-study-find-that-rashes-could-swap-hands

 

Essentially the link trail back to an actual study went and died, if it ever existed in the first place.

 

 

We need to know what controls, if any were in place. Did cross contamination between the different leaves occur? Were the subjects observed constantly or did the researchers allow them out of their sight? What guarantee do we have that the researches didn't mistake which arm they applied the leaves to? Was any testing for urushiol residue done?

 

Fairly reasonable issues that would negate the results.

[chadn737]

what do you think? how is it possible that those allergic to the ivy did not react when told it was a harmless plant instead?

How does the mind somehow prevent the antigens from binding to the mast cell receptors?

 

You still haven't shown that such a study actually exists. Your reference a source that mentions an unreferenced study. Where is the actual study? What journal was it published in? Who were the authors? What is the actual data?

[John Cuthber]

OK,

I thought the other side of the problem was obvious.

Why no reaction to the "real" plant?

Well, there are a few obvious possibilities.

The reaction to poison ivy and the lacquer tree is due to this stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urushiol

It's not stable in air, so it's entirely possible that, by the time the leaves were used, the effect had been destroyed by air.

Also, the material is in the sap of the leaves, rather than on the surface- simply brushing against them might not release any of the urushiol.

 

Perhaps more importantly, the effect is an allergic reaction. The first time someone is exposed to this stuff, nothing much happens.

It's the second (and subsequent) exposures where there's an effect.

 

If these kids were aware of the properties of this stuff they probably had the sense to avoid it.

If they did so, then the first exposure to the chemical would be during the tests.

So you wouldn't expect a reaction to the "real" leaves or the"fake" ones.

 

There's also the interesting question of whether -even in the 50s- the results of such a plainly unethical experiment would have been published.

 

And you seem to have missed this question, so I'm repeating it for you

 

Incidentally, when you said
"Here is the link to the famous Japanese Poison ivy study. It is considered by many proof the mind can cause injury."
Who are the "many" you are talking about- or did you just mean that you think it's "proof" of that?

[jbilio]

I just had a crazy dream where I was watching a movie about someone putting crazy glue twice on a thumb. I was concerned that my son had done it, but he was fine. However it was me who did it twice in my dream, and it was so painful in my dream that I woke up, and my thumb felt like it was burning too. It's been five minutes, and the sensation has died down. But that was intense.

[TrevorC]

Interesting. I think it is the other way around (like most people said). i once had a dream where something extremely heavy was placed on my chest and because of that i couldn't breathe. When i woke up i saw that i had placed my hand on my chest. Well my hand is not heavy enought to stop my breathing, but appearantly in my dream i thought so.

 

I don't think that the nocebo effect can cause something physical.

[DrP]

Yes - I think it more likely that jbilo had something irritate his thumb in real life which caused him to dream about it... (insect bite?, rub burn? chemical from work? who knows). Happens all the time... I once dreamt I was mugged buy 2 men in an alley - they pinned me by the wall and grabbed me by the balls... It hurt! I woke with ball pain... it wasn't the dream causing the pain... it was the pain causing the dream.

[DrmDoc]

It's somewhat of a misperception that we are oblivious to sensory experiences while asleep and dreaming. We are fully capable of detecting sound, tactile, and some visual sensory even while dreaming. This is proved by our arousal from sleep and dreaming at the sound of loud noises such as an alarm or knocking at one's bedroom door. Our tactile perception amid sleep is proved by our capacity to arouse whenever we are shaken or when we experience physical discomfort during sleep. During experiments to induce lucid dreaming, sleep researcher Stephen LaBerge has shown that we are capable of detecting visual stimuli amid REM sleep, which is the stage in which dreaming occurs. My own investigation suggests that our dreaming brain produces dream content by using these sensory perceptions to construct a narrative that invariably involves our latent or prevailing thoughts. For example, DrP's dream might suggest thoughts regarding an attack on one's masculinity and TrevorC's dream could regard a struggle with some oppressive circumstance that is much like having an weighty object upon one's chest. Our dreaming brain appears to use our subtle sensory experiences amid sleep as a way to actualizing our lingering thoughts; however, there's more than sufficient evidence suggesting that actualizing thoughts is likely not why we dream.

[Annpolan]

I had a lucid dream this morning where I was in a fight. I woke up with bruises and scratches exactly like a fist fight. It’s been about an hour and I took a shower and they are still here. They hurt less than they look. 

I spent all yesterday as a lazy Sunday and didn’t do anything that might produce these injuries.

Im kinda freaked out. I’ve been meditating a lot after a very bad depressive episode. I have chronic depression. My gut says my body is telling me it’s time to fight, something hard but necessary when dealing w depression. 

I found this after googling to try to make sense of it. I’m an engineer by training and skeptical of far fetched stories. Figured I’d share and see your thoughts?

[DrmDoc]

7 hours ago, Annpolan said:

I had a lucid dream this morning where I was in a fight. I woke up with bruises and scratches exactly like a fist fight. It’s been about an hour and I took a shower and they are still here. They hurt less than they look. 

I spent all yesterday as a lazy Sunday and didn’t do anything that might produce these injuries.

Im kinda freaked out. I’ve been meditating a lot after a very bad depressive episode. I have chronic depression. My gut says my body is telling me it’s time to fight, something hard but necessary when dealing w depression. 

I found this after googling to try to make sense of it. I’m an engineer by training and skeptical of far fetched stories. Figured I’d share and see your thoughts?

There's very little probability that your injuries are a result of what happened in your dreams.  It's likely they are a result of hypnogogic experiences causing you to thrash about while semi-asleep resulting in the injuries you experienced.  However, you should consult a sleep specialist near you should you continue to have these experiences or abnormal sleep.  I hope this helps.

[Dreamyeyez]

This is very real and has happened to me before. Had a dream of my grandfather who is deceased came to me in a dream and told me my mom was traveling outside of the country then left me with a scar which caused me to wake up. I then called my mom who I had not talked to in over a year. to tell her I had a dream about my grandfather /her father.  I had not talked to my mother in about a year. She then told me she was traveling out of the country in the morning.  This is VERY reallll ..scar disappeared about 3 hours later. At that time I had just moved in to my new apartment  so I had no furniture yet no bed etc it had not been delivered yet...so out of excitement I decided to sleep on the floor..lol. There was nothing around me that could of scratched me. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Dreamyeyez

[DrP]

8 hours ago, Dreamyeyez said:

. There was nothing around me that could of scratched me. 

Apart from your own nail you mean?

I once had a nap in the afternoon sometime around 1997. I dreamt that me and my pal should go to visit some old guy at the old people's home we met a few days back. I woke up...  went down to the old people's home to meet my pal coming in the opposite direction, who also 'felt' we should go see the old guy...  So what? Coincidences happen all the time...  if they didn't occur at all it would be even stranger as they are predicted to happen mathematically by probability. 

There are so many millions of people in the world that of course at any moment there will be someone who thinks a word just before it comes on the radio, or thinks of their mum just before they call...  what they miss is that they think of their mum's most of the time and let it drop from their minds, but when there is a call the mind places significance on the event as being connected with the unrelated thought the person was having. I won't go into the maths...  I've seen it layed out and it is pretty basic...  like 2 or 3 people in the room with the same birthdays...  seems improbable at first until you do the maths and then it is expected from time to time as a certainty.

 

 

 

[DrmDoc]

It is wholely conceivable that some of our physical experiences in dreams could present with some real physical symptom or effect much like those experienced under hypnotic suggestion.  For example, a person under hypnosis may present with a rash or blistering when it's suggested that her arm is exposed to a heat source when in reality that is just a hypnotic suggestion.  Further still, psychosomatic illnesses and conditions wouldn't be a thing without real evidence of such occurrences.  Such illnesses and conditions prove a strong mind/body connection.  However, real injury involving abrasions or lacerations likely occur during sleep and dreaming through the sleeper's contact with something in her sleep environment. It's conceivable that sleeping on the floor could cause the injuries you've described.  Regarding your mother's trip, unconsciously you may have been aware of your mom's desire to travel and your concerns about that desire resulted in your dream.  Her father, your grandfather, in this dream likely reflects your fatherly concern about the interest in traveling you may have unconsciously detected in your mother's prior conversations.

Edited December 20, 2017 by DrmDoc
contraction omission

[DrP]

13 minutes ago, DrmDoc said:

It is wholely conceivable that some of our physical experiences in dreams could present with some real physical symptom or effect much like those experienced under hypnotic suggestion. 

Do you see this as being similar to a placebo or negative placebo (nocebo?) effect?

[DrmDoc]

2 minutes ago, DrP said:

Do you see this as being similar to a placebo or negative placebo (nocebo?) effect?

Very much like a placebo effect wherein our body appears to respond to what we're mentally convinced is true or real.

[BlackBird]

This is a question I'd really love to know more about. I am genuinely curious and not here to argue with anyone about differing opinions.

   "Dreams Causing Real Injuries?" I believe they can, but I'd like to know where I can go to get more information about it. I've had dreams where someone grabbed my arm way too hard and the next day I had a bruise on my arm in the shape of a hand grip. Four fingers and a thumb.

   Also once I was attacked by this huge werewolf type dog in a dream, and it clawed my leg. When I woke, I had three parallel scratch marks on my legs bleeding, but it wasn't as deep as in my dream.

   I just woke up about an hour ago at 1am because I had another nightmare. I was wearing a corset and someone tore it off of me, taking a layer of my skin over my stomach with it and it hurt a lot. Now my stomach is so sore I don't want to stand.

   I'm trying to consider some of the possibilities discussed, like for instance earlier someone said people do it to themselves in their sleep. So did I do this to myself? Wouldn't I have woken up if I was causing myself so much pain? Or could it have been the power my mind has over my body? I know I didn't get these injuries rolling on my bed. The thought is ludicrous.

   Nothing is impossible though. If anyone knows where I can go to do greater research on this, I would greatly appreciate it. Things like this has been happening more and more often. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by BlackBird

[Cassey]

I just had a dream something or someone was burning my arm in this certain spot and yanking the heck out of my arms and i couldn't sleep so i woke up cause that same spot was irritating me. And i noticed this spot on my arm in the same spot in my dreams i was getting burn at? Plus my shoulders hurt, weird? I just made this profile cause it's just weird to me! 

[DrP]

Just now, Cassey said:

I just had a dream something or someone was burning my arm in this certain spot and yanking the heck out of my arms and i couldn't sleep so i woke up cause that same spot was irritating me. And i noticed this spot on my arm in the same spot in my dreams i was getting burn at? Plus my shoulders hurt, weird? I just made this profile cause it's just weird to me! 

Looks like you picked up a bruise or some irritation...  you probably didn't notice it during the day and at night the bruising/soreness was coming out and your dream reflected the reality of your injury. That or you bashed it in the night or something. It is clearly more common than people think.  It can take some time for some skin irritations to register.

 

On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 7:10 AM, BlackBird said:

   Nothing is impossible though.

Well, some things are impossible. Lots of things in fact.

 

On ‎08‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 7:10 AM, BlackBird said:

   I just woke up about an hour ago at 1am because I had another nightmare. I was wearing a corset and someone tore it off of me, taking a layer of my skin over my stomach with it and it hurt a lot. Now my stomach is so sore I don't want to stand.

 

It isn't uncommon for people to develop soreness on the skin. Your skin got sore and you didn't notice it until you were sleeping and dreamt about it.  Same with the scratches - they were there before you went to bed but you hadn't noticed them and then as you drifted off at some point in the night your body registered it and your brain dreamt about the werewolf. When you awoke you associated the injury with the dream.

 

[Phi for All]

On 8/8/2018 at 12:10 AM, BlackBird said:

Nothing is impossible though.

As DrP mentions, there is plenty that's impossible, and the sooner you accept that, the more focused you can be on natural explanations, and the more effective your research will be. 

If you aren't persuaded by the lack of mechanisms argument, consider that if our dreams could affect us physically like you suggest, we would see a lot more of it with so many billions of people on the planet. And how would evolution treat such a trait? If it's not beneficial, it probably wouldn't be passed to the next generation. If it's detrimental and could prevent procreation, the trait would weed itself out. And if it was somehow beneficial to us, we'd see a LOT more evidence of it occurring more often in succeeding generations. These are some obvious places to study, and I think it's telling that we still find no evidence that dreams can directly cause physical trauma to human tissue.

[BlackBird]

6 hours ago, DrP said:

Well, some things are impossible. Lots of things in fact.

I would disagree with you. That statement would depend on your opinion, and how you see things. You can't control the universe, and in fact, miracles are recorded every day. So I stick to my statement that anything is possible, and you can believe otherwise. That's our opinions. 

 

6 hours ago, DrP said:

It isn't uncommon for people to develop soreness on the skin. Your skin got sore and you didn't notice it until you were sleeping and dreamt about it.  Same with the scratches - they were there before you went to bed but you hadn't noticed them and then as you drifted off at some point in the night your body registered it and your brain dreamt about the werewolf. When you awoke you associated the injury with the dream

Do you know if there is a correlation to being in pain amd having vivid violent or gruesome nightmares? 

I can understand having pain in stomach and not noticing. Like you said, it's not uncommon. The scratches, on the other hand, I have a hard time registering. 

   The cuts were still bleeding when I woke up. Is it common for them to bleed all night? The only reason I even noticed the cut was because it bled through my pants. If it happened before I fell asleep, I would feel kind of oblivious if I didn't notice myself bleeding on my thigh. Even if it didn't happen when I was awake, and in fact while I was asleep, then how did they form in the first place?

   My nails aren't strong or long enough to cut my skin at all. Ever since I was a toddler I've bitten my nails down to the nubs. It's not healthy, but I've had no success stopping. 

   I don't believe a werewolf caused it. That sounds like a stretch, even for me. But it is important to me to figure out what caused it, something that makes sense to me, so it doesn't happen again. I do appreciate your help though, explaining the first one. 

[DrP]

Not being able to explain or comprehend where the scratches came from shouldn't lead you to conclude that some supernatural event happened in your dream. It is more likely that you picked the scratches up somewhere without noticing (Walking through grass or bumping into something at work or play).  Later, in the night, you started to feel it in your sleep and scratched it yourself with your stumpy finger nubs which could have opened the scratches further or broken off the scabbing - causing the bleeding. You awake, remembering your dream, which was bought on by the sensation of the scratching the scratches on the leg. That - or something else entirely different happened that caused scratches on your legs. Or, maybe Freddy Krueger is real after all!  

15 hours ago, BlackBird said:

That sounds like a stretch, even for me. But it is important to me to figure out what caused it, something that makes sense to me, so it doesn't happen again.

You may never figure out what caused it  -  that doesn't mean you should jump to supernatural conclusions.

 

21 hours ago, DrP said:

Well, some things are impossible. Lots of things in fact.

15 hours ago, BlackBird said:

I would disagree with you. That statement would depend on your opinion, and how you see things.

Is it possible for a human to flap his arms like wings and fly up to the sun, have a picnic and return unharmed?

 

[DrmDoc]

On 8/9/2018 at 12:27 PM, BlackBird said:

   I don't believe a werewolf caused it. That sounds like a stretch, even for me. But it is important to me to figure out what caused it, something that makes sense to me, so it doesn't happen again. I do appreciate your help though, explaining the first one. 

Perhaps this will assist your inquiry: Somatic illness, hypnotic suggestion, psychogalvanic reflexes, pseudocyesis, and the placebo effect are just some of the myriad of evidence in science for our powerful mind/body connection.  I recall a video in my youth where a person under hypnosis experienced skin redness and blistering when given the suggestion that her hand was emersed in boiling water instead of water that was actually room temperature.  I've mentioned all this so that you might not jump to supernatural conclusions, as DrP suggests, and consider or investigate more rational causes for your injuries amid sleep.  Barring causes within your sleep environment, consider the possibility that your injuries were a somatic response to your dream experiences.       

[HB of CJ]

I endure recurring nightmares.  Mega Tsunamis.  Impossible ones. Sometimes I survive.  Mostly I do not.  Implausible high speed head on steam freight train collisions with me inside the steam engines.  Huge green close cropped grass playing fields with endless javelins pouring down from a foggy sky.   I try running but the spears always win.

Caused by whatever including body injuries flaring up at night.  Plus PTSD. I sleep alone.  Much total body trashing and cramping.  Quinine helps.  I can definitely tell you dreams can physically hurt you, particularly if the dreams are night terrors combined with a life time of body damage.   Nobody enters my bedroom until I am fully awake.

Dangerous for myself and others.  Such is life. 

[Sarajeansgrbby]

I found this topic because this just happened to me last night.

I had nightmares all night last night, one of the most vivid being that i was on fire.

I woke up today and didnt notice anything until i was getting out of the shower, i had burns all over my back in multiple areas. Places i couldnt even reach. They were not there yesterday. I wore a shirt showing my shoulders and upper back yesterday and they were not there. And as for the 'friction' comment, bullshit. I slept on top of my covers and was naked when i was sleeping i always sleep naked. 

I got scared and google searched to try and find some answers, this place is the best I got.

For now, im being prayed over and getting my room blessed and I'll let you knkw how it turns out.