Speculation: Magnitude Problem Between Lab Casimir Force and Lambda

[Schneibster]

I am wondering if the difference in the magnitudes of the Casimir force as measured in the lab, and the necessary strength of lambda, the cosmological constant, or "dark energy," could be due to the fact that it is offset by a change in g_uv due to the local density of matter within the galaxy, or within the Local Cluster.

[davidivad]

for me it all boils down to the vacuum.

i think the interesting thing here is that the amount of energy in a vacuum is supposed to be infinite for quantum mechanics. of course we can't realistically use that energy. my interpretation is that the casimir force is actually the effect of waves not fitting between two plates. once you put the plates together close enough, waves of a certain length no longer fit in between them. the result is a difference in force because the waves do fit outside the plates. this is the way that i learned the concept, however they now use liquid helium films to get better measurements (i just started reading a 2007 arxive paper by alfred hucht which shows how long it has been).

 

i agree that dark energy is offset by the gravity of our neighborhood. whether or not it affects the measurements of the casimir force is a good question. when you bring einstein into the equation, an infinite amount of energy would have an infinite amount of "mass." this is clearly not the case.

 

if i have missed something you may have to bring me up to speed.

Edited April 7, 2014 by davidivad

[Schneibster]

Your understanding of vacuum energy as measured in a Casimir apparatus seems correct to me. Specifically, the waves between the plates are less than the waves outside the plates. The amount, however, is not infinite.

 

So your objection doesn't look correct to me, but not conceptually; only in terms of your assumptions about the quantities involved.

 

OTOH, it's several orders of magnitude so your objection isn't ridiculous, just ruled out. Remember that although there may be an infinite universe outside the plates, only the waves that strike the plates register; and that's as true on the outside as the inside.

This accounts for the frequent statement that expansion happens in the empty space between galaxy clusters. It's because it's not flat space inside them, but it's flat in the space between. If we measured the Casimir force in flat space it would be stronger. This latter is the experiment we'd need to perform to prove it.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Schneibster

[davidivad]

there is definitely a discrepancy that cannot be accounted for when considering the theoretical quantities of zero point energy.

however the casimir effect has been observed.

 

i propose that the difference in the strength in earth's immediate gravitational field is less than that farther out as traveled by some of our probes. the question whether or not there have been any measurements or devices that depend upon our current calculations of this force. my bet is that the number of probability waves will remain constant and independent of a gravitational field because they are the same in a "vacuum" independent of the field (it is constant).

in other words, i am betting my cards on the fact that it is a constant.

 

if you win, then i will mail you a decent picture of my index finger (we all know it is just the tip of the iceberg).

if i win this debate, you must do the same. fair?

 

the only conditions of my bet are that your idea must either be proven by statistics or be the consequence of observed measurement.

[Schneibster]

So far AFAIK it hasn't been measured, and I won't bet on it; it's not enough of a sure thing for me.

 

Also I'm not sure it wouldn't affect other parameters if it were true. I'm thinking of the speed of light, and the scale of the universe, and obvious stuff like that. It's just a conjecture.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Schneibster

[davidivad]

it's just a finger.

 

i am thinking that because it is a constant, then the number of imaginary waves will remain the same within the vacuum that particles reside in. think about it. the more space expands, the more space there is for the energy to present itself.

 

you are right. it was a silly bet. there is so much theory behind what we are talking about.

i was hoping to possibly snag you with the pioneer anomaly or specifics of the gravity probe b experiment.

 

to note this is the most horrible misuse of the word constant that i have ever done.

Edited April 8, 2014 by davidivad

[Schneibster]

I was gonna gig you on that use of "constant," speaking of

 

I think it was a true triumph that the Gravity Probe B folks managed to find their problem, and not only that but correct for it and reanalyze the data. Now THAT required asking the right questions. (A good schneibster always asks good questions. I am a connoisseur, IOW.)

 

I think they found out what the Pioneer Anomaly was, last time I checked. Extra heat radiation pressure from the reactor?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Schneibster