Vegetarian or Vegan Diet for Blacks: Lower Cardio Risk

[alexwang32]

I believe there are two reasons to why meat is bad vegetarian/vegan diet is relatively better:

 

1. Animal cruelty: There's this saying which goes: "If all the slaughter house walls were made of glass, you wouldn't dare take another bit out of your bacon". So yeah this point needn't be emphasized any further. Though I would also like to point out that vegetarian/diary is still somewhat curel. Do a Google search on how they actually treat milk cows and you'd be surprized.
2. Unhealthy: There's something called organic meat on the market now. Why? You probably don't want to know if you still want to eat meat, or you're gonna have to be super ignorant. Antibiotics, hormones, excessive salt, radiation... it's endless.
3. Resources: There's a joke saying global warming is caused by cow farts, well it's not completely false. The resources and cost to produce meat is much more than it takes to produce crops, vegetables, or fruits. Fields stomped by cows are rendered useless for a long time. This is something that cannot be denied. Meant was luxurious back in the old days, it only became cheaper with the commerical production.

So yeah, the above three reasons are concrete and undeniable. Whether or not vegan diet is healthier doesn't matter, though I myself believe vegans aren't anyless robust and strong than anyone else.

[imatfaal]

[snip]

So yeah, the above three reasons are concrete and undeniable...

 

1. Is patently not true. Even in one of the most built-up countries in the world I know many people who hunt, kill, prepare their own meat. I have slaughtered and butchered hundreds of animals - and whilst it is not pleasant it is not inhuman. The industrial scale of slaugherhouses is another matter I acknowledge - but a difference in quantity not quality. If your claims is so true then please confirm that all slaughterhouse employees are vegetarian - surely your claim could not be true yet those inside remain unaffected.

 

2. The existence of fad foods is not credible evidence for the dangers those foods claim to avoid.

 

3. This one is at least true to an extent. However our problems with food are resource allocation rather resource non-existence. The carbon footprint of meat is hard to deny - but then so is the carbon footprint of many things. I would expect - at the very least - anyone who enjoined others to eschew meat due to the carbon footprint to also refuse to use air-travel, avoid all food-stuffs flown in by air or shipped in reefer-containers, not use air-conditioning, etc. otherwise I would urge them to remove the plank from their eye... And just to make it clear -I am no denier - I am so concerned by global climate change that I have massively curtailed my use of planes and private cars and most of the other small changes mentioned above and others that I can make to my lifestyle. I eat less meat - and try to eat locally sourced and sustainably reared meat (it just tastes better which is a real bonus) - but that is due to dietary concerns; but less is not none.

[John Cuthber]

I believe there are two reasons to why meat is bad vegetarian/vegan diet is relatively better:

 

1. Animal cruelty: There's this saying which goes: "If all the slaughter house walls were made of glass, you wouldn't dare take another bit out of your bacon". So yeah this point needn't be emphasized any further. Though I would also like to point out that vegetarian/diary is still somewhat curel. Do a Google search on how they actually treat milk cows and you'd be surprized.
2. Unhealthy: There's something called organic meat on the market now. Why? You probably don't want to know if you still want to eat meat, or you're gonna have to be super ignorant. Antibiotics, hormones, excessive salt, radiation... it's endless.
3. Resources: There's a joke saying global warming is caused by cow farts, well it's not completely false. The resources and cost to produce meat is much more than it takes to produce crops, vegetables, or fruits. Fields stomped by cows are rendered useless for a long time. This is something that cannot be denied. Meant was luxurious back in the old days, it only became cheaper with the commerical production.

So yeah, the above three reasons are concrete and undeniable. Whether or not vegan diet is healthier doesn't matter, though I myself believe vegans aren't anyless robust and strong than anyone else.

If #1 of those was true then then all slaughter-men would be vegetarian.

Do you think that's credible?

 

There's something called "organic meat" because you can fool some of the people all of the time, and sell meat at an eve higher premium.

Meat production is generally seen as reource intensive- and for the most part it is.

There's no denying the wastefulness of most meat production.

But I live in the North of England; it's cold and wet and so the only thing that grows well is grass.

I can't eat grass- but sheep can, and I can eat mutton.

So, sometimes, the best use of resources is to eat meat (and / or dairy produce).

[EdEarl]

news.usc.edu

 

Not only is excessive protein consumption linked to a dramatic rise in cancer mortality, but middle-aged people who eat lots of proteins from animal sources — including meat, milk and cheese — are also more susceptible to early death in general, revealed the study published today in Cell Metabolism. Protein-lovers were 74 percent more likely to die of any cause within the study period than their more low-protein counterparts. They were also several times more likely to die of diabetes.

[hypervalent_iodine]

!

Moderator Note

EdEarl,

You have already attempted to discuss that particular article in another thread: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/82029-should-meat-and-cheese-be-labeled-as-cigarettes-are-labeled/

If you have something new to add, please do so there.

[EdEarl]

 

sciencedaily.com

 

Researchers have examined the association of nut and peanut consumption with mortality among low-income and racially diverse populations and found that intake of peanuts was associated with fewer deaths, especially from heart disease.

 

[EdEarl]

medicalXpress.com

 

(HealthDay)—The more fried food you eat, the greater your risk for heart failure, a new study says.

[EdEarl]

 

sciencedaily.com

 

Title: Semi-veggie diet effectively lowers heart disease, stroke risk

 

Source: American Heart Association

 

Summary: A pro-vegetarian diet that emphasizes a higher proportion of plant-based foods compared to animal-based foods may help lower the risks of dying from heart disease and stroke by up to 20 percent, according to a large-scale study. Researchers suggest that substituting some of the meat in your diet with vegetables may be a simple way to lower the risk of heart-related death.

Edited March 8, 2015 by EdEarl

[Ten oz]

@ EdEarl, I think it is a obvious issue. Eating more fruits and vegetables while reducing ones consumption of meat is healthier than vice versa. I doubt there are many nutritionist in the world who would disagree. It seems like much of the push back in this thread is partly preemptive. Posters want to nip the idea that vegetarianism or veganism is better in the bud but that argument gets started.

 

Most of the meat eaten by people today isn't what hominids initially evolved eating. Most animal meats have a high potential of making humans sick if consumed raw. Beyond that humans don't have the jaw muscles or teeth to rip chunks from most animals. Certianly not the ones we consume today. Not until fire and cutting tools were our ancestors able to adopt the diet we have today. By then we were human. Beyond the physical health benefits fruits and vegetables are more efficiently produced. They require less land, energy, and water to produce.

 

I think meat is here to stay for the foreseeable future. Just like there may be better ways to obtain the health benefits attributed to wine; wine is so delicious when it hits the lips that we would rather just accept a little liver damage. I think most people who have been forced by health issues to evaluate their diets eat more fruits & veggies and less meat.

[MigL]

Soylent green crackers, anyone ?

 

( do any of you under 40 yrs age know what they are ? )

Edited March 8, 2015 by MigL

[John Cuthber]

Does this thread exist solely so that Ed can post cherry-picked papers that agree with his personal opinion of how the world should be?

Is that science?

 

I'm still amused by the idea of a "healthy" diet that will kill you ( from b12 defficiency) if you don't add supplements.

[hypervalent_iodine]

Does this thread exist solely so that Ed can post cherry-picked papers that agree with his personal opinion of how the world should be?

Is that science?

 

!

Moderator Note

This is a good point and one I've been meaning to address.

 

EdEarl, this thread / website is not your soap box. You have been more or less ignoring criticism in this thread for some time and instead posting links to websites without even adding your own comments on the articles. It needs to stop. If you don't intend on engaging in discussion of your points, stick to using a blog.

[EdEarl]

Does this thread exist solely so that Ed can post cherry-picked papers that agree with his personal opinion of how the world should be?

Is that science?

 

I'm still amused by the idea of a "healthy" diet that will kill you ( from b12 defficiency) if you don't add supplements.

I'm not cherry picking. I've been posting all diet related articles that I see, mainly from ScienceDaily.com, Phy.org, and MedicalXpress.com.

!

Moderator Note

This is a good point and one I've been meaning to address.

 

EdEarl, this thread / website is not your soap box. You have been more or less ignoring criticism in this thread for some time and instead posting links to websites without even adding your own comments on the articles. It needs to stop. If you don't intend on engaging in discussion of your points, stick to using a blog.

I have not commented when people post things that I agree with, but can in the future, just to keep the conversation alive. My original contention was that a vegan diet was best, but have changed my mind a bit based on these articles. I believe our bodies can tolerate some animal products, in line with a Mediterranean diet. Also, it seems people can live well on a diet of sea food, with little else.

[MonDie]

Vegetarian diet and mental disorders: results from a representative community survey
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466124/

 

I ran upon this longitudinal study uncovering that adoption of vegetarianism tended to follow mental illness diagnosis. I haven't read it yet. Perhaps they're trying to manage their illness (unsuccessfully), or maybe it's an empathizing difference in people on the psychotic spectrum, which includes mood disorders.

Edited November 30, 2015 by MonDie

[John Cuthber]

Vegetarian diet and mental disorders: results from a representative community survey

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3466124/

 

I ran upon this longitudinal study uncovering that adoption of vegetarianism tended to follow mental illness diagnosis. I haven't read it yet. Perhaps they're trying to manage their illness, or maybe it's an empathizing difference in people on the psychotic spectrum, which includes mood disorders.

Or maybe people with poor mental health can't get good jobs and can't afford meat.

Or people with health problems spend time talking to doctors and doctors point out that (for many people) a vegetarian diet is healthier, so they accept this and change their behaviour.

Or maybe there's some strange confounding variable- some odd genetic glitch that makes people less likely to adopt vegetarianism and also less likely to be become mentally ill. Perhaps it affects synthesis of a couple of proteins, one on the tongue and one in the brain.

If, for example, there was a gene like this

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060918165721.htm

somewhere on the genome that was near the gene(s) responsible for this

http://depressiongenetics.stanford.edu/mddandgenes.html

 

It's going to be a while before we find out

But it's an interesting study.