The temperature of gravity

[Popcorn Sutton]

I think that gravity is extremely cold, possibly even 0 K. In a place that is as cold as absolute 0, there will be no time and no space for anything. You get can extremely close to it, but it will take you an extremely long time to get there. With this hypothesis, given the assumption that it is 0 K, we can explain why things are solid, I'd call it quantum gravitational freezing, or bubbleic solidification.

[ajb]

I am not at all sure what you mean by the temperature of gravity. Can you explain this a little? (is this related to thermal field theory?)

[swansont]

Temperature is a property of a system of particles, so a statement like "gravity is extremely cold" does not parse.

 

We can get down to nanoKelvin temperatures, and we don't see this "no time and no space" happening. Things being solid liquid or gas are fairly well-understood to be related to the electromagnetic force, and our understanding of gravity trivially excludes your hypothesis. i.e. it is known that things don't work in a way that would allow this to be true.

[Popcorn Sutton]

I'm just speculating, and I'm no expert in physical theories, but, I did major in philosophy and I really want to believe that gravity is responsible for cooling things down (maybe not very much) just enough to be real and solidified. It would make sense IMO to explain how extremely small things like atoms are cooled much more rapidly than large things. Imagine if we came across a particle the size of jupiter, I'm guessing that it would be EXTREMELY rare to find one of these, and my reason in believing that is that it would decay EXTREMELY fast. Maybe, somewhere out there, we can find a Higg's particle the size of Jupiter pop into existence and almost immediately decay. That would be a very strange thing to see, and a very interesting thing to talk about.

[Bignose]

I'm just speculating, and I'm no expert in physical theories, but,

but, before you start using words like temperature in a scientific concept then you need to take it upon yourself to actually know what it means.

 

In short, temperature is a measure of the movements of the particles. Mathematically it is related to the distribution of the average velocity of all the particles and the variation of each individual particle from that average. Higher temperatures correspond to distributions where more particles have velocities away from the mean and/or the variation of particles from the mean value is higher.

 

In light of this definition, you see that it is pretty meaningless to try to define a gravity temperature.

 

What is the average velocity of gravity? What is a 'particle' of gravity? How can you tell if one particle's velocity is different than another, and so on.

 

I really want to believe that gravity is responsible for cooling things down

Now this is a different thing.

 

2 things here... Firstly, you need to be cognizant of the differences between temperature and heat. Your statement here conflates the two of them, I think.

 

And I think you could see how gravity can be responsible for slowing things down. Consider a universe that contains nothing but massive particles that collide inelastically. The particles are massive, so they have a gravitational attraction to one another. And because they collide inelastically, energy is dissipated with each collision, typically resulting in lower velocities post-collision than pre-collision. Also typically, lower velocities tend to not have as large or as varied a distribution -- and with some assumptions (binary only collisions and the inelasticity is a constant not a function of velocity) one can show that the distribution of velocities will eventually be a perturbed Maxwellian and over time as more and more energy is dissipated, the variation in that distirbution does indeed get smaller. I.e. the temperature goes down.

 

But again, that is the temperature of the particles. Not the temperature of gravity. When discussing things in science, one must be sure to pick the words with the exact definitions you intend. There are colloquialisms in science, but generally they are much, much less frequent that everyday language use.

[Klaynos]

Gravity causes compression which creates a rise in temperature.

[swansont]

I'm just speculating, and I'm no expert in physical theories, but, I did major in philosophy and I really want to believe that gravity is responsible for cooling things down (maybe not very much) just enough to be real and solidified.

 

Want to believe? I'd be surprised if that passed for acceptable philosophy. It sure as hell isn't science.

[Popcorn Sutton]

It's a speculation though. When things are moving fast, but they get cold too, they would be much more fragile and be easily dispersed away from the gravitational point.

If they're smaller and they broke each other, there would be a lot more of them, which would cause more friction.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Popcorn Sutton

[swansont]

It's a speculation though.

 

Not according to our definition of speculation; this isn't the WAG forum. We expect some kind of model and ways to test, and/or evidence to support the idea. Preferably not in the form of ignoring anything that disagrees with the idea.

[Popcorn Sutton]

It's hard to speculate about absolute zero because there's no known method of getting something anywhere near that point. I'm sorry, I don't know how to test this.

[John Cuthber]

It's relatively easy to get something a thousand times nearer to absolute zero than the objects we normally see. It's also not difficult to get things ten times further from zero than usual (turning on a light bulb will do it.

So , if temperature had an effect on gravity, it would be pretty easy to spot.

Indeed, people would have noticed it "by accident" while looking at other effects- for example while looking at the temperature dependence of paramagnetism using a Gouy balance.

So, we know from experiments that there is no measurable effect of temperature on gravity.

We also know what temperature is, and there's no reason for us to expect it to have any effect on gravity.

 

 

On the other hand, we have you and you "I really want to believe that gravity is responsible for cooling things down".

Do you think what you want affects the universe?

[Popcorn Sutton]

I was thinking along those lines for a little while before you posted. Here's what I was thinking. Suspend water in space, measure the surface area, put it in a freezer while suspended and measure the surface area. If the frozen waters surface area is lower, then there's evidence.

 

What's the WAG forum btw?

[Bignose]

It's hard to speculate about absolute zero because there's no known method of getting something anywhere near that point.

Granted using imprecise words like "anywhere near" does allow a range of interpretations, but it is my opinion that less than 1 nanoKelvin is somewhere near: http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2003/cooling and http://ltl.tkk.fi/wiki/LTL/World_record_in_low_temperatures

 

depending on the exact definition of temperature one is using (there is that precise use of language necessary for science, again!) even some negative temperatures have been achieved: http://www.livescience.com/25959-atoms-colder-than-absolute-zero.html

What's the WAG forum btw?

pretty sure WAG stands for 'wild ass guess'. In other words, on this forum, we expect even speculations to be somewhat rooted in known observations and confirmed theories. You're not allowed to just post anything you want and try to claim it is scientific. In other words, you can't just make wild ass guesses.

[Popcorn Sutton]

Lol! That just killed me. Thanks for the citations as well. Is there any evidence to support this hypothesis though?

 

Those were interesting and if the last citation is accurate, then the gravity-temperature hypothesis is accurate.

[ACG52]

The last citation says nothing at all about gravity.

[Popcorn Sutton]

It says that the atoms shrink at colder temperatures, which is what I predicted. It also mentions gravity and dark energy but without any speculations.

[Sensei]

It says that the atoms shrink at colder temperatures, which is what I predicted.

 

Do you know ideal gas law?

[Popcorn Sutton]

No sensei, I haven't.

[Sensei]

Ideal gas law is primary or secondary school knowledge..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law

 

Pressure * Volume = Quantity of Particles/Molecules * k_b * Temperature

The higher temperature, the higher must be volume and/or pressure.

For instance, Earth's air molecules have velocity ~340 meters per second.
If you will cool them they will move slower,
and volume or pressure will have to change accordingly.

How to check this?
Fill balloon with air or other gas.
Place something cold inside (like f.e. dry ice, or piece of metal going to outside and constantly cooled down).
Balloon will start shrinking when gas inside will start cooling down.
Velocity of gas particles will be slower and slower.
Kinetic energy of gas particles will be lower and lower.
We could even change gas particles to liquid, and then solid in extreme situations.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Sensei

[Popcorn Sutton]

So the temperature of gravity is absolute zero whoop! Sorry guys it's such a beautiful day here and the weather is perfect. I hope you guys are enjoying it as much as I am.

[Fuzzwood]

That is only true if gravity consist of particles with a mass. No particles, no temperature.

[Sensei]

Sorry guys it's such a beautiful day here and the weather is perfect. I hope you guys are enjoying it as much as I am.

 

Every day is beauty. It's just relative to where you are..

 

The most happy day to somebody, might be the worstest day of life for somebody else.

Thousands peoples, millions animals, and billions of vegetables are dying in a day,

and

thousands peoples, millions animals, and billions of vegetables are born in the same day..

[Popcorn Sutton]

The glass is a 1/2 chance of being half empty!

 

Gravity could be a refrigerator.

[Ophiolite]

Gravity could be a refrigerator.

Sure. And life is like a box of chocolates. But this is a science forum, not a place to expostulate remarks that only carry any weight when read under the influence of questionable substances.

 

I ask a serious question: what is motivating you to post the questions and remarks that you do? From my perspective it looks bizarre and self defeating, so I must be missing something.

[Popcorn Sutton]

I post for progress. I want the world to be a better place. I drank a Gatorade today and ate some hot dogs. I hung out by myself and enjoyed the weather all day. It was great. I get bored of studying sometimes. Long story short, no drugs, no alcohol, just me.