My question No 5 about ' Pictures Falling Off Walls'

[DTonesXD]

Was told to make this separate thread

[Mordred]

might help if you reference the original thread

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/83302-a-few-questions/

 

question 5

 

"Why do i wake up before something happens?E.g. a poster falling down. I don't know it is going to happen but there i am, suddenly awake lying there wondering why i am awake and then 5 seconds later, the poster falls down"?

Edited May 19, 2014 by Mordred

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

 

5. Why do i wake up before something happens?E.g. a poster falling down. I don't know it is going to happen but there i am, suddenly awake lying there wondering why i am awake and then 5 seconds later, the poster falls down

.

I have experienced similar things, as I am sure others have. Eg " Just waking up before the alarm goes off etc ."

 

I have a possible explanation .

 

The explanation does give an interesting possible insight into what quite "NOW " Actually is !

 

 

Hi DTones.

Firstly , it is worth thinking on what is going on out there in the big wide universe. If our knowledge to date is correct , which it is likely to be pretty well right, what we learned to date.

 

The universe appeared to come out from the Big Bang condition some 13.7 billion years ago. examination by scientists over the last 100 years have shown that the smallest portion of time [ Plank Time ] is approximately 1 millionth,millionth,millionth,millionth,millionth,millionth,of a second [very small time]. So the shortest time anything can change slightly is this very, very, very small time. say something changing in an atom. It happens if we could see it flash,But we can not discern it. But other things change in a larger fraction of a second . These we could see flick. All these flicks represent a change in the state of the universe.

 

If you come forward billions of years you come to today.Now everything has spread out all over the place [the universe]. But all these changes of states of atoms and, stars, and planets and trees and pictures are all changing , position, state, and in other ways. If we could see all these changes ,even around us, let alone the whole of the universe, We would have a bad head, with all these flicking changes.

 

Here comes the ISSUE. Everything is flicking changing all over the place, far,far,far,far more than we can comprehend , let alone SEE.

We could say here we are, here you are ,after all this flicking at NOW 10:01 pm 19th May 2014 [ oops its gone by] Now is 10:03 19th May 2014. .

 

The NOW is moving forward, a few more, Trillions of trillions of, Trillions of trillions of, Trillions of trillions of, Trillions of trillions of,changes happening all over the universe. The only way YOU can cope with all these flickings, changes, IS Your conciousness must be selective, very selective.

 

So you can not possibly have All even these local changes around you flick every [ Plank Time , that small number earlier mentioned ] so our consciousness appears to follow the Diagram I have drawn above . namely the NOW is not a Plank flick, but could be spread across this valley of consciousness illustrated above .

 

Namely , it starts a bit in the future { or what we think is the future } , it peaks in a dip that we think is the real NOW { when really the NOW is the whole thing}, and continues on into the fading past { which really is still a part of the whole NOW } . So really this whole spread out conscious experience across this Dip is the Conscious Now. [our NOW] . This is similar to how (Delta.1212)..posted in the multi question thread. However I have to say , what I have described is very much a perception , as We as an individual are conscious of. , or perceive.

 

Now clearly that picture could have fallen off the wall, any time in that overall dip of NOW, also you and your consciousness span the dip. Obviously to different depths of consciousness,and in different perceptions of order. When we are wide awake the whole thing is straight forward, however is still spread across the dip.

 

Now what is happening out there in the big wide universe is a whole new area of consideration, which I am not discussing in this particular answer. What is your conscious dip width is , is your experience of the NOW. How the Universe goes on , flicking change all over the universe , and how wide its Now is , or what is its NOW ,has to be a whole different area of discussion .

 

mike

 

Ps It must be said that the above conclusions have come from both Main stream science as well as speculative ideas.

The area of Time, Consciousness, Perception ,sleep, Waking, Memory etc is a highly developmental area of current research. So any ideas expressed above must ONLY be taken as possible explanations for your experiences. Perhaps it is better than nothing , and I must say I have experienced it many times with Alarm clocks set to go off at 3 oclock or 2:30 in the night, say for to catch a plane. I wake up seconds or a fraction of a minute before, then the alarm goes off. It is not possible to just gauge that time .However [ Not a picture falling off the wall , that is spectacular , good one ] ,

Edited May 19, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Acme]

It's just a coinkydink.

 

Correlation does not imply causation.

 

...The counter assumption, that correlation proves causation, is considered a questionable cause logical fallacy in that two events occurring together are taken to have a cause-and-effect relationship. This fallacy is also known as cum hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "with this, therefore because of this", and "false cause". A similar fallacy, that an event that follows another was necessarily a consequence of the first event, is sometimes described as post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin for "after this, therefore because of this"). ...

[Ophiolite]

As far as waking up ahead of the alarm clock is concerned, this is perfectly explicable by the use of our internal clock. If I wish to waken at a specific time I simply imagine that time before going to sleep and then wake up as required, marginally before the alarm. There is nothing surprising in that Mike.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

As far as waking up ahead of the alarm clock is concerned, this is perfectly explicable by the use of our internal clock. If I wish to waken at a specific time I simply imagine that time before going to sleep and then wake up as required, marginally before the alarm. There is nothing surprising in that Mike.

 

Yes , I have heard this several times before, from friends who say , they bang there head against the pillow three times before they go to sleep, if they want to get up at three. I can't see we can be that precise.

 

And when I found out that modern brain reaction research has shown and proved that decisions are made fractions of a second or even seconds before we, our [wide awake] conscious experience is telling us we made a particular experience, I was amazed. We appear to be following along ,being wide awake conscious after the event . In other words , our unconscious self is sort of doing a bit of living ahead of the ( what we think of as Conscious) seeing the story after it has occurred by a little bit . ..

 

mike

[Acme]

Yes , I have heard this several times before, from friends who say , they bang there head against the pillow three times before they go to sleep, if they want to get up at three. I can't see we can be that precise.

 

...

mike

Arguing from personal incredulity is a logical fallacy Mike. One you employ far too often I might add.

[Ophiolite]

 

Yes , I have heard this several times before, from friends who say , they bang there head against the pillow three times before they go to sleep, if they want to get up at three. I can't see we can be that precise.

Well, you are perfectly free to disregard the experiences of your friends and of myself. It is anecdotal evidence and thus highly suspect.

 

All I can tell you is that I used this technique many times over the years and subjected it to some reasonable testing early on. I was sufficiently satisfied to conclude that our internal time clock is pretty accurate and can be "set" to wake us at a specific time. If I were reading this I should want some independent, peer reviewed research before I accepted it.

 

However, I have the choice of accepting some weird, new-age, hand waving, hocus-pocus as an explanation, or I can accept that our internal clocks are pretty damned accurate. Guess which one I opt for!

[CharonY]

As Ophilolite said, it is well known the people get used to a specific sleep pattern and can wake up within minutes of a target time. However, for times that are widely out of the norm the result is often a less deep sleep with more awakenings (that you usually do not remember). This does rely to some extent on external cues, which could be city noises, light or a calibrated sleep pattern.

 

If conducted under no external calibration (e.g. living underground without clocks) it tends to get out of what as the internal clock may assign a rhythm different to our usual 24h.

 

With regards to OP there are several explanations, one being that either the poster made tearing noises that woke you up without you realizing, that something (e.g. draft or slamming door) caused both the poster to fall and waking you up or just pure coincidence (i.e. how often have you woken up without the poster falling? It is bound to coincide at some point).

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

However, I have the choice of accepting some weird, new-age, hand waving, hocus-pocus as an explanation, or I can accept that our internal clocks are pretty damned accurate. Guess which one I opt for!

Well you explain when NOW is and HOW WIDE is it ? And is it the same as the Universe's NOW ? and where is it . NOW. here? Over in the andromeda constellation, everywhere ? Is there a universal now, going on everywhere RIGHT NOW. .?

 

Mike

Edited May 19, 2014 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Acme]

Well you explain when NOW is and HOW WIDE is it ? And is it the same as the Universe's NOW ? and where is it . NOW. here? Over in the andromeda constellation, everywhere ? Is there a universal now, going on everywhere RIGHT NOW. .?

 

Mike

Mike,

 

With all due respect, this post and your others in this thread are just so much pseudoscientific bullwash. Other than repeating that over & over or using other terms to say the same thing, my first sentence covers the issue.

[Ophiolite]

Well you explain when NOW is and HOW WIDE is it ? And is it the same as the Universe's NOW ? and where is it . NOW. here? Over in the andromeda constellation, everywhere ? Is there a universal now, going on everywhere RIGHT NOW. .?

 

Mike

Hi Mike, there are several responses I could make to this. I have difficulty choosing, so I shall let you select the option that appeals the most.

 

1. The OP asked a straightforward question, for which there is a well established answer that is consistent with a range of current theory: psychological, physiological and physical. Why do you feel the need to intervene with with poorly defined speculations that will confuse rather than elucidate?

 

2. The use of capitalised letters to emphasise words is often associated with cranks. Would you stop it please. It detracts from your argument.

 

3. The width of now, by which I take it you mean duration, would likely be Planck Time. This is reasonably well established within physics. I would argue that you have no business postulating ideas about time it you are unaware of this - and if you are aware of it, why would you ask the question?

 

As to where now is, it is relative, if I grasp at least some of Professor Einstein's ideas. I think this is also generally known, so why are you asking?

 

4. You are trying to defend the indefensible. In the mainstream forums speculation is not only discouraged, it is practically forbidden. It is rude to introduce your own hypotheses in these sections: it is likely to confuse neophytes and casual readers. Yet you continue to do so. Where does that arrogance come from?

 

5. Mike, I really like you and would love to visit you to have a beer and a chat one day, but you don't half talk some shit.

[DTonesXD]

well... this was an interesting read.

What is the answer i should trust then?

@

Ophiolite

No worries, i have got my answer and this seems the most plausible to me

 

Sometimes it's not really about how lightly you sleep. It's about the kind of noise you heard. If it's the house settling, or a family member moving about, normal noises, these often don't wake us up because they're part of a normal pattern. But if the same amount of noise comes from an unfamiliar source, our pattern-recognition capabilities reject it and we come awake.

 

The other possibility with the poster falling is that one edge came undone, making a noise that was out of place (tape coming off the wall, the poster sliding along the wall at an angle) that woke you up so you could then hear the poster fall all the way to the ground, making it seem like you woke up before the incident even started.

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

 

Mike - you were told with this exact question and a very similar response in the locked thread with twelve questions not to introduce speculative notions as answer to questions in the mainstream science fora. Stop this practice at once; you have been treated with utmost leniency in your threads in the speculations forum but this form of posting will not be tolerated here in the science section.

 

Do not respond to this moderation by replying in this thread. You can report this post if you feel it is unjust.

 

[Delta1212]

Just to toss in my own contribution science, what little good a single data point will do, but I decided to do a test on myself.

 

Normally, I get up at 6:30, which is what my alarm is set to get me up by. I needed to get up a little earlier today anyway, so I set my alarm for 6:15 and decided to shoot for a bit extra for the sake of science and decided to try for 5:30 (unnecessarily early, but I wanted to be able to distinguish from the time I normally wake up).

 

I went to bed thinking about waking up by 5:30. I woke up this morning and looked at the clock: 5:32.

 

Obviously not a rigorous study, but there's the result of my one-off experiment.

[Phi for All]

Just to toss in my own contribution science, what little good a single data point will do, but I decided to do a test on myself.

 

Normally, I get up at 6:30, which is what my alarm is set to get me up by. I needed to get up a little earlier today anyway, so I set my alarm for 6:15 and decided to shoot for a bit extra for the sake of science and decided to try for 5:30 (unnecessarily early, but I wanted to be able to distinguish from the time I normally wake up).

 

I went to bed thinking about waking up by 5:30. I woke up this morning and looked at the clock: 5:32.

 

Obviously not a rigorous study, but there's the result of my one-off experiment.

 

I know our internal clocks can be amazing, but I think it's important to rule out clock noise. Even digital clocks can make a small noise just before the actual alarm goes off.

 

I experienced this myself in a couple of different ways. I used to wake up, look at the clock and have it go off the next instant. I thought it was my own internal clock being extremely accurate until one morning when I woke a little earlier, and heard a slight click just before the alarm.

 

Also, my dog can hear my cell phone alarm just before it wakes me with pleasant tones. He jumps up on the side of the bed and then the alarm sounds, making it look like he has an great internal clock. The phone buzzes slightly just before the tones start.

[Delta1212]

 

I know our internal clocks can be amazing, but I think it's important to rule out clock noise. Even digital clocks can make a small noise just before the actual alarm goes off.

 

I experienced this myself in a couple of different ways. I used to wake up, look at the clock and have it go off the next instant. I thought it was my own internal clock being extremely accurate until one morning when I woke a little earlier, and heard a slight click just before the alarm.

 

Also, my dog can hear my cell phone alarm just before it wakes me with pleasant tones. He jumps up on the side of the bed and then the alarm sounds, making it look like he has an great internal clock. The phone buzzes slightly just before the tones start.

Well, in this particular instance, I had the alarm set for 6:15 (the time I actually needed to be up by) and woke up at 5:30 (the time I was shooting for just for the sake of this topic). Unless my phone starts making noise 45 minutes before the alarm goes off, we can probably rule out clock noise for that. The more likely source of any error in this case is probably coincidence, since I didn't set anything or tell anyone that I wanted to get up at 5:30 and working off a sample size of one makes the result fairly susceptible to the quirks of random chance.

[DTonesXD]

thanks guys

[Ophiolite]

 

I know our internal clocks can be amazing, but I think it's important to rule out clock noise. Even digital clocks can make a small noise just before the actual alarm goes off.

 

I experienced this myself in a couple of different ways. I used to wake up, look at the clock and have it go off the next instant. I thought it was my own internal clock being extremely accurate until one morning when I woke a little earlier, and heard a slight click just before the alarm.

I quite agree. However, when I was experimenting with this in my youth I did not set the alarm. (I only use one today if it is vital I be up at a certain time for a flight, or meeting.)

 

An example of what you are speaking of is that, when living in Cairo, I would wake every morning a couple of seconds before the muzzein's call to prayer. This was caused by the crackle as he turned on the PA system and was not evidence of deep seated religious convictions on my part.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Hi Mike, there are several responses I could make to this. I have difficulty choosing, so I shall let you select the option that appeals the most.

 

 

5. Mike, I really like you and would love to visit you to have a beer and a chat one day, but you don't half talk some shit.

I think I like this one the best ! Particularly the chat . And the beer ! Then I can talk some more ....

 

Mike