Surprise - Vaccines are NOT associated with Austism. Meta-analysis of 1.3 million children.

[Dislayer]

I believe this study needs to get more publicity. We are never going to be able to rid the world of vaccination conspiracy theorists but at least we can educate more of the general public. It's unfortunate that there has been few news stories on this study even though it pretty definitively indicates there is no association.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24814559

[CharonY]

Well it is not the first to conclude this. It just has a larger data set. The issue is that unfortunately it does not really matter. Anti-vacciners have ignored all the other evidences and it is unlikely that an additional data set is going to sway their minds.

Those that follow the data should be pretty much already be aware that the link is bogus, anyway.

Edited May 27, 2014 by CharonY

[hypervalent_iodine]

Well it is not the first to conclude this. It just has a larger data set. The issue is that unfortunately it does not really matter. Anti-vacciners have ignored all the other evidences and it is unlikely that an additional data set is going to sway their minds.

Those that follow the data should be pretty much already be aware that the link is bogus, anyway.

This is true, though there is a relatively large cohort of people who just don't know any better and are easily swayed by anti-vaccine arguments when they are not also presented with intelligent counter-points. I personally know of one or two families who fell for the anti-vaccine lines and didn't vaccinate their eldest children until much later, when after their 3rd child they actually did some reading and realised that it was all bogus. The publicity that this particular study has attracted is beneficial to those sorts of people if not to those who already have a firm opinion on the matter.

[Dislayer]

This is true, though there is a relatively large cohort of people who just don't know any better and are easily swayed by anti-vaccine arguments when they are not also presented with intelligent counter-points. I personally know of one or two families who fell for the anti-vaccine lines and didn't vaccinate their eldest children until much later, when after their 3rd child they actually did some reading and realised that it was all bogus. The publicity that this particular study has attracted is beneficial to those sorts of people if not to those who already have a firm opinion on the matter.

 

You are right. Hopefully more coverage on a story like this (and others) would help sway those people sitting on the fence before the anti-vacciners get to them. It is unfortunate that they get some much air time while real science doesn't. Also unfortunate that valuable resources need to be sunk into these ventures to answer a question that doesn't need to be answered.

[Phi for All]

We are never going to be able to rid the world of vaccination conspiracy theorists but at least we can educate more of the general public.

 

More confirmation bias going on here. Too many people preconceive a notion about science, in this case vaccinations, and the result is that the more data and supportive evidence you show them, the more convinced they become that you're covering something up.

 

Conspiracy theorists have turned out to be doubly dangerous. They prefer fear to rational supportive evidence, and they make everyone numb to things we might actually need to be concerned about.

[physica]

The other problem why vaccine denial will never die is the confusion of the public in terms of credible opinion in medical science. Many members of the public look to their doctors, nurses and other healthcare professionals for scientific analysis even though the degrees they have done were vocational. My assessments before clinical practice basically tested to see if I could memorize anatomy and physiology and that I could comprehend procedures and follow guidelines, memorize drugs and basically say that I wasn't dangerous in a hospital. The scientific method is lightly touched on and maths barely played a role in the education. I myself wanted to get involved in medical research. After working with a few medical professors who couldn't understand the most basic maths (failed to comprehend probabilities of a dice role, one professor just kept calculating means of everything because he couldn't get his head round distribution) I went back to university to study physics with the interest of biophysics.

 

However, the average doctor and nurse has such limited scientific acumen they don't realize how limited their scientific analysis is and they preach their half-baked opinions to the public. Some are rational but some are just out right stupid. In the link below there are 3 women, 2 of them medical doctors claiming that vaccines don't work, they are dangerous.

 

http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/doctors-against-vaccines-the-other-side-of-the-story-is-not-being-told/

 

Below is a website with pages of doctors, nurses and pharmacologists writing against vaccines

 

http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Midwives-And-Health-Professionals-Against-Vaccination

 

Below is a link to a book against vaccines with 48 medical doctors putting their name to it

 

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/tag/medical-doctors-against-vaccines/

 

of course there are also doctors and nurses who are pro vaccine and then there's the majority of doctors and nurses who simply follow the guidelines and do their job without giving it much thought as they were grateful that they passed med school and that the end of their 12 hour shift is in sight.

 

The sad thing is that doctors and nurses have capitalized on the public's misconception. I don't expect a scientist to perform an operation just like I don't expect and doctor or nurse to have enough scientific acumen to have a respectable analysis. However, as long as the public has this misconception they will be confused. Below is a link to a blog entry of the former British Medical Journal editor venting his disrepair and stating that he no longer reads medical journals any more and that the majority of publications in clinical medical journals are trash:

Richard Smith: Medical research—still a scandal

 

http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2014/01/31/richard-smith-medical-research-still-a-scandal/

 

There are some stupid people who make up the public but when they're exposed to medical professionals who think they can have ago at this science lark and spew absolute trash you can't be too harsh towards the public.

Edited June 25, 2014 by physica

[CharonY]

I would like to see the percentage of these quack doctors and whether they just reflect the fringe (as in any other profession). What I mean is that even among well-trained scientist you will find some that try to sell things that are either not mainstream or simply silly.

[physica]

This study doesn't answer your interest fully but it was the best I could find. In this study of 1,251 physicians in 2008. The electronic survey sent to these physicians (self-administered servery) revealed that 11% of physicians did not recommend to patients that children receive all available vaccines.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18726813

 

So if you are not a well educated member of the public for one reason or another you have a 1 in 10 chance of your family doctor not recommending that your child receive all available vaccines. They will just try and do the best for their child. Doctors and nurses need to stop thinking about our own image for once and admit to the public that the vocational degrees do not qualify us to make scientific analysis. Clinical training teaches the student how to interpret symptoms and which guidelines to follow, science is barely touched.

[CharonY]

That seems like a very high number. Thanks for the link, I will look into that. That being said, since I collaborate with MDs as a scientist, I found that they typically make it quite clear that the the science stuff is my area, not theirs. I can imagine that they are not saying the same in front of patients, however.

But on the other hand, if they do that, they leave the door open to people who randomly diagnose themselves and mess up medication since they do not trust doctors. I do agree that it should be clearer to the public where the official medical guidelines end and where personal interpretation starts.

[Dislayer]

That seems like a very high number. Thanks for the link, I will look into that. That being said, since I collaborate with MDs as a scientist, I found that they typically make it quite clear that the the science stuff is my area, not theirs. I can imagine that they are not saying the same in front of patients, however.

But on the other hand, if they do that, they leave the door open to people who randomly diagnose themselves and mess up medication since they do not trust doctors. I do agree that it should be clearer to the public where the official medical guidelines end and where personal interpretation starts.

 

All the more reason that there needs to be more clinician scientists who understand research and the flaws in it. Most doctors unfortunately are giant stores of memorized information with the ability to apply it but not to critically think about these problems themselves.

[physica]

This is an interesting article. Makes the point that there are many doctors who simply don't understand the most basic maths behind med research and make it very hard for patients to make the right decisions

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28166019

[Dislayer]

This is an interesting article. Makes the point that there are many doctors who simply don't understand the most basic maths behind med research and make it very hard for patients to make the right decisions

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28166019

 

Interesting article. It seems to me that the problem doesn't solely lie with the doctors but with the way these statistics are presented and the lack of education about them in the public. As the article says, it would be better to express risks/survival/mortality rates as numbers and not percentages. It would likely help to express these sometimes confusing stats in lay language (like most other science needs to do in order to get funded).

 

On another note, don't like the title of the article. Little misleading in the fact that is isn't whether doctors understand tests but rather do they understand statistics.

[iMMz]

I have been a lurker for sometime on these forums, but joined specifically to comment here.

 

There is a gross misperception that the (american) public has regarding vaccines, even amongst the educated groups. I am a 3rd year medical student currently on my pediatrics rotation in a economically strong suburb in Milwaukee. The number of parents coming in who refuse vaccinations of any/all kind is absolutely frightening. Literally 1/4-1/5th of the patients who come in require significant amount of convincing that vaccinations are the correct choice for their child. The problem for this misperception is multifaceted. Some people think it is the odd doctor spreading false information, but in my (limited) experience so far I have yet to encounter an anti-vaccination physician.

 

The main contributor to this problem, in my opinion, is social media. Every day I see countless posts on various social outlets (FB, twitter, etc.) from the anti-vaccination brigade. It is the obligation of every informed individual will to educate these people so the rumors stop. It will take time and willingness, but if this trend continues the next generation will suffer for it. While an unvaccinated child on his own may or may not encounter life threatening illnesses, they are at a signficantly higher risk to be carriers for countless of pathogens. Who suffers then? Every immunocompromised child is at risk due to fault of not their own, and that is a frightening proposition.

[physica]

I've had 4 year emergency room experience and I dabbled in medical research. Th academic standards for medicine in research is so low I was working with professors of medicine who couldn't comprehend the most basic forms of maths. I took a pay cut and spent all my savings on tuition to go back to university to study physics with an interest in biophysics and bio-engineering. The more I studied physics and maths the more I realized that my colleagues (and me before study) didn't have a clue.

 

Lets look at your post. You state your opinion but do not back it up, you do not address the links and studies cited.

 

Yeah who cares about the link to the former editor of the British medical journal stating that the math standard for med research is inferior and there's a lot of trash published.

 

who cares about the study citing that 1 in 10 doctors will not recommend all vaccines to their patients as you have the answer to that:

 

Some people think it is the odd doctor spreading false information, but in my (limited) experience so far I have yet to encounter an anti-vaccination physician.

 

 

and who cares about the three links on this thread that were found in under a minute when googling where there are loads of doctors and nurses speaking out against vaccines and one book against vaccines had 48 medical doctors names to it. I really shouldn't be sweating this because you have an answer:

 

The main contributor to this problem, in my opinion, is social media. Every day I see countless posts on various social outlets (FB, twitter, etc.) from the anti-vaccination brigade. It is the obligation of every informed individual will to educate these people so the rumors stop.

 

And who cares about the link giving recent historical examples of the medical profession as a whole getting something wrong in 1995 (before social media) like the risk of a clot when on the contraceptive pill because doctors look at the percentage and saw that the risk doubled resulting in 13,000 abortions the following year. Even though the risk doubled from 1/7000 to 2/7000, yeah the main focus in your opinion is social media.

 

 

I'm sure you've got some half-baked opinion on this piece of writing that reviews multiple studies pointing out that doctors can't comprehend the most basic concepts of probability and fail very simple probability exercises:

 

https://www.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/sites/default/files/media/forschungsergebnis/pdf/gigerenzer_gray_2011_launching_the_century_of_the_patient.pdf

 

Now remember you're going to be a medical professional soon so don't bother reading up on anything. All you have to do is start your point with: "in my opinion", and say the rest confidently.

 

After reading your post I have no doubt that you fit in well in medical school. Remember you'll need to maintain this confident assertion of your opinion without reading too much into specifics or trying to understand concepts like logic, cause and effect or probability if you want a successful career in clinical medicine.

[swansont]

 

 

Now remember you're going to be a medical professional soon so don't bother reading up on anything. All you have to do is start your point with: "in my opinion", and say the rest confidently.

 

After reading your post I have no doubt that you fit in well in medical school. Remember you'll need to maintain this confident assertion of your opinion without reading too much into specifics or trying to understand concepts like logic, cause and effect or probability if you want a successful career in clinical medicine.

 

!

Moderator Note

 

physica, we have a rule about civility and personal attacks, and this is overstepping it. Please dial it back.

 

Also, please don't respond to the modnote in the thread.

 

[overtone]

There was some benefit to the anti-vaccine hysteria, in that mercury compounds used for stabilization are now treated with suspicion and minimized. For a while there kids whose brains were newly developing were getting injected with mutliple doses of mercury in biologically active form, with essentially no studies on the cumulative or mutually reinforcing effects.

[chadn737]

There was some benefit to the anti-vaccine hysteria, in that mercury compounds used for stabilization are now treated with suspicion and minimized. For a while there kids whose brains were newly developing were getting injected with mutliple doses of mercury in biologically active form, with essentially no studies on the cumulative or mutually reinforcing effects.

 

"Biologically active form"? Thimerosal contains ethylmercury which is quickly broken down and excreted from the body. It is not equivalent to methylmercury or elemental mercury, which can persist and accumulate with known health effects. That and the amount of mercury in any vaccine was less than 1 microgram. Humans are routinely exposed to much higher levels of methylmercury through diet (fish) alone and methylmercury is not excreted like ethylmercury.

 

Given that this nonsense has now given rise to the resurgence of diseases like measles and whooping cough, I'd say any benefit obtained from awareness of a perfectly safe additive like thimerosal is non-existent. Meanwhile, much harm and many lives have been put at risk as a result.