Why Forgive?

[dimreepr]

For me it’s a means to let go of all the tension and anger that’s built up in yourself through, the thoughtless and cruel actions of others, the retention of which can only hurt you; so the act of forgiveness is all about your wellbeing and not letting the wrongdoer of the hook, in terms of karma.

Anyone else have an interpretation?

[Dekan]

I don't think we ever truly "forgive" anyone for a wrong they did to us. The memory of the wrong, stays with us. It makes us angry and resentful, whenever we think about it. Even years afterwards.

 

What we'd really like to do, is avenge the wrong, by getting back at the person. But if we can't do that, because the person is too strong, or for some other reason, we suppress our resentment.

 

And call it "forgiveness". But isn't that word just a kind of rationalisation - it excuses our inability to get revenge?

[dimreepr]

Ah, revenge the one true way to blind the world.

Besides it’s more than easy to accept the wrong of others; when one takes natural karma into account. Very few are able to commit wrong, without knowing wrongdoing; after all a bully isn’t born but made.

I’m an atheist; but some lessons of the bible are worth learning.

[Phi for All]

I don't know about the big stuff, betrayal, breaking a vow, outright lies that cause harm. I'm not sure how quickly things like that can be forgiven, or if they should be at all without a lot of thought. If a close friend betrays me, I'm not sure forgiving him would increase my wellbeing. I might feel worse for being such a pushover.

 

But for smaller things, I think we take them too seriously. The guy who cut you off in traffic didn't cut YOU off, he cut your car off, nothing personal about it. That's the kind of stuff that accumulates on a daily basis and if you don't forgive it quickly, it can affect you without your realizing it.

[dimreepr]

But for smaller things, I think we take them too seriously. The guy who cut you off in traffic didn't cut YOU off, he cut your car off, nothing personal about it. That's the kind of stuff that accumulates on a daily basis and if you don't forgive it quickly, it can affect you without your realizing it.

 

Which is exactly what happens with the big stuff: if you let it.

[Delta1212]

I don't think we ever truly "forgive" anyone for a wrong they did to us. The memory of the wrong, stays with us. It makes us angry and resentful, whenever we think about it. Even years afterwards.

 

What we'd really like to do, is avenge the wrong, by getting back at the person. But if we can't do that, because the person is too strong, or for some other reason, we suppress our resentment.

 

And call it "forgiveness". But isn't that word just a kind of rationalisation - it excuses our inability to get revenge?

I let stuff go that I could feasibly "get revenge" for all the time. I certainly don't get angry over anything that happened years ago. Frankly, I have trouble holding onto resentment for longer than a couple months, assuming whatever was causing it has ended.

 

It's just not worth the time and emotional strain to worry about it. If you gave me the opportunity, right now, to injure some person of my choice in a manner of my choosing, large or small, with no repercussions, not a single name comes to mind as someone it would give me pleasure to even inconvenience.

 

But maybe that's just me.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Delta1212

[Phi for All]

But isn't that word just a kind of rationalisation - it excuses our inability to get revenge?

 

I can understand this perspective, which tells me we need to identify the aspect of this concept we want to talk about, and use that as our working definition.

 

Can forgiveness be conditional? Can I forgive someone who commits severe offense and never trust them again/go our separate ways, or do I have to go back to the way things were before the offense if I "forgive" someone?

 

I’m an atheist; but some lessons of the bible are worth learning.

 

You'll be delighted to know that all of them have roots in folklore that predates those writings.

 

 

Which is exactly what happens with the big stuff: if you let it.

 

It's true, I can support that anecdotally. A balance needs to be found though. If you're too quick to forgive, you may be setting yourself up for further abuse. And what does it do for your self-esteem to think that you may be too quickly trusting someone who betrayed you recently?

 

I'm a secret karma-junky. I just think my life goes smoother when I think of us all working together interconnectedly, and any little thing I can do to help out a fellow human will come back to me soon (not for any cosmic reason; I'll simply be focusing on good things to happen back). But you need to deal with feelings of betrayal and mistrust too, and resolve these issues meaningfully or they'll probably happen again a lot.

[dimreepr]

 

You'll be delighted to know that all of them have roots in folklore that predates those writings.

 

I am.

 

It's true, I can support that anecdotally. A balance needs to be found though. If you're too quick to forgive, you may be setting yourself up for further abuse. And what does it do for your self-esteem to think that you may be too quickly trusting someone who betrayed you recently?

 

I agree, balance is needed, however forgiving doesn’t have to be at the expense of learning, lessons; you can forgive a thief, completely, whilst limiting further temptation.

 

I'm a secret karma-junky. I just think my life goes smoother when I think of us all working together interconnectedly, and any little thing I can do to help out a fellow human will come back to me soon (not for any cosmic reason; I'll simply be focusing on good things to happen back). But you need to deal with feelings of betrayal and mistrust too, and resolve these issues meaningfully or they'll probably happen again a lot.

 

I’ll, further, add my take on ‘natural’ karma, very few negative actions have no psychological impact and almost all positive actions have a positive outcome (smile and the world smiles back), you don’t need calculus to solve that equation; yes, it’s possible the perpetrator is a sociopath and doesn’t suffer in that way, but what does that matter (whether he suffer, for his crimes, or not, if unknown can have no impact on your own feelings)?

[Phi for All]

I agree, balance is needed, however forgiving doesn’t have to be at the expense of learning, lessons; you can forgive a thief, completely, whilst limiting further temptation.

OK, unless the thief is someone close to you. Don't you think it should be harder to forgive someone when that means you'll continue the relationship? You'll at least need to establish new parameters for trust, or does forgiveness mean you go back to trusting them the same way as before?

 

Your best friend steals your grandmother's wedding ring, the one you'd hoped to give to your prospective bride when you meet her. He sells it but you find out. He didn't realize how much it meant to you, he's never done anything like this before, he can't get the ring back but he promises to make it up to you somehow. You decide to forgive him. How much? What changes, if any, will there be to your relationship? Does he need to fulfill on his payback promise before you completely forgive him, or is that qualifying an absolute? Can you forgive a little, or is all forgiveness complete?

 

I’ll, further, add my take on ‘natural’ karma, very few negative actions have no psychological impact and almost all positive actions have a positive outcome (smile and the world smiles back), you don’t need calculus to solve that equation; yes, it’s possible the perpetrator is a sociopath and doesn’t suffer in that way, but what does that matter (whether he suffer, for his crimes, or not, if unknown can have no impact on your own feelings)?

 

 

I use karma for me alone, since it's defined by what I think is important. Someone else could toss a bag of trash out the window and feel like they did a good thing by cleaning up their car.

 

Karma, for me, is like a mental filter. I set the parameters for things I want to see; a parking space without a shopping cart in the middle of it, a mother enjoying her time with her children, a pleasant nature hike that lets me step away from civilization briefly.

 

So I see the opportunities to return my carts and not block someone else's parking. I can pause in my day to hold the door open for the now-smiling lady with the stroller and a couple other wee ones in tow. And I try to leave only footprints when I hike, but I'm a species representative too, so I look for trash to pack out also.

 

There's nothing cosmic about karma to me, it's just lighting for the stage my life is playing on. Karma helps me mentally illuminate what I like to see.

[dimreepr]

OK, unless the thief is someone close to you. Don't you think it should be harder to forgive someone when that means you'll continue the relationship? You'll at least need to establish new parameters for trust, or does forgiveness mean you go back to trusting them the same way as before?

 

For me this is the only time the anger/frustration/resentment, associated with an unforgiven act, is useful, in fact it’s good for both parties. It allows the innocent party to vent their feelings and once vented it makes the forgiving much easier. It allows the guilty party to realise the full extent of their negative action/s and the consequences, one of which is the knowledge that it will take a while before the other party learns to trust again.

The problem, for both, comes when the contact is lost and with it the opportunity to vent, for the innocent and a lot just retain it; for the guilty there’s no realisation of the negative consequence and so no reason not to commit further and probably more serious crimes.

Your best friend steals your grandmother's wedding ring, the one you'd hoped to give to your prospective bride when you meet her. He sells it but you find out. He didn't realize how much it meant to you, he's never done anything like this before, he can't get the ring back but he promises to make it up to you somehow. You decide to forgive him. How much? What changes, if any, will there be to your relationship? Does he need to fulfill on his payback promise before you completely forgive him, or is that qualifying an absolute? Can you forgive a little, or is all forgiveness complete?

 

You forgive their actions, if your friend hits you in a fit of pique, the act of forgiving doesn’t involve thrusting your cheek at him too invite another whack; you forgive his pique but, naturally, you’d keep your guard up when they’re in a similar mood.

I use karma for me alone, since it's defined by what I think is important. Someone else could toss a bag of trash out the window and feel like they did a good thing by cleaning up their car.

 

Karma, for me, is like a mental filter. I set the parameters for things I want to see; a parking space without a shopping cart in the middle of it, a mother enjoying her time with her children, a pleasant nature hike that lets me step away from civilization briefly.

 

So I see the opportunities to return my carts and not block someone else's parking. I can pause in my day to hold the door open for the now-smiling lady with the stroller and a couple other wee ones in tow. And I try to leave only footprints when I hike, but I'm a species representative too, so I look for trash to pack out also.

 

There's nothing cosmic about karma to me, it's just lighting for the stage my life is playing on. Karma helps me mentally illuminate what I like to see.

 

Karma, for me, is a set of balance scales (conscience), when one balances ones, inevitable (however few) negative actions with positive ones the scales balance and one feels content.

[Iamwhat?]

I feel that it is a good idea to forgive. It allows for the release of unneeded negative energy. I feel that negative energy is more powerful then positive energy and if left unchecked it can eat away at a persons life force. Stress caused by negative energy has many ill heath effects. That said I am a huge fan of karma, we may forgive but we never forget. I have witnessed karmic justice many times both in others and myself. The universe has many ways of settling the score and most are very ironic. I once witnessed a guy, that a friend of mine friend knew to be a racialist, rear end a car at a stop light. It was ironic because the people in the car happened to black and now this person had to right the wrong his own bad karma caused The karmic scales are blind and all are held accountable it is justice at it's finest

[dimreepr]

I feel that it is a good idea to forgive. It allows for the release of unneeded negative energy. I feel that negative energy is more powerful then positive energy and if left unchecked it can eat away at a persons life force. Stress caused by negative energy has many ill heath effects. That said I am a huge fan of karma, we may forgive but we never forget. I have witnessed karmic justice many times both in others and myself. The universe has many ways of settling the score and most are very ironic. I once witnessed a guy, that a friend of mine friend knew to be a racialist, rear end a car at a stop light. It was ironic because the people in the car happened to black and now this person had to right the wrong his own bad karma caused The karmic scales are blind and all are held accountable it is justice at it's finest

 

 

I think karma is internal and personal and works because of, what you call, ‘negative energy’.

When one acts negatively against others, like theft or violence, it’s never without emotional consequences (a negative act = negative consequences) and psychological turmoil ensues, however much they appear to not suffer.

 

I admit that universal karma is compelling, when things like you describe happens, it appears justice has been done, but it is just coincidence and doesn’t happen to every ignorant racist.

 

I personally take solace in the knowledge, there’s no punishment worse than that dealt by oneself.

Edited June 17, 2014 by dimreepr

[Awe]

For me it’s a means to let go of all the tension and anger that’s built up in yourself through, the thoughtless and cruel actions of others, the retention of which can only hurt you; so the act of forgiveness is all about your wellbeing and not letting the wrongdoer of the hook, in terms of karma.

Anyone else have an interpretation?

I agree and however I don't think you need a health reason for doing so but instead you can look at it logically because Logic usually determines and trumps emotions. We can feel emotions out of irrational poorly thought out ideas or observations which is useful from an evolutionary perspective. For example revenge, someone harms you, you harm back. However there are two conflicting sides to humans. That animalistic drive for instant reaction lacking sufficient contemplation and then there's rational behavior. We find many examples of this animalistic behavior in our most prevalent forms of art such as movies and books. Some guy kills someone close to the main character and the protagonist devotes his entire life to achieving revenge. However it's pretty difficult to determine whether revenge is justified unless one looks at it from a scientific perspective. Asking questions like what are humans? What drives humans? Do humans intentionally harm? These questions don't require some god to answer especially in the age of information however so many skip over this part and got straight to revenge. To summarize its easy to just act based on our emotions especially when those emotions are conjured from misunderstanding or lack of understanding however being that we desire to know truth we must be critical of our beliefs and understanding.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Awe

[Dekan]

I agree and however I don't think you need a health reason for doing so but instead you can look at it logically because Logic usually determines and trumps emotions. We can feel emotions out of irrational poorly thought out ideas or observations which is useful from an evolutionary perspective. For example revenge, someone harms you, you harm back. However there are two conflicting sides to humans. That animalistic drive for instant reaction lacking sufficient contemplation and then there's rational behavior. We find many examples of this animalistic behavior in our most prevalent forms of art such as movies and books. Some guy kills someone close to the main character and the protagonist devotes his entire life to achieving revenge. However it's pretty difficult to determine whether revenge is justified unless one looks at it from a scientific perspective. Asking questions like what are humans? What drives humans? Do humans intentionally harm? These questions don't require some god to answer especially in the age of information however so many skip over this part and got straight to revenge. To summarize its easy to just act based on our emotions especially when those emotions are conjured from misunderstanding or lack of understanding however being that we desire to know truth we must be critical of our beliefs and understanding.

 

You mention the "animalistic drive for instant reaction". That's like when you accidentally tread on the cat's tail. She feels pain, and instantly reacts by growling and clawing at your foot.

 

You mumble an apology "Sorry Puss". The words aren't literally understood by the cat. But she gets the drift from your placating tone of voice. And when you add further placatory measures, by gently stroking her back in a friendly, reassuring manner, she goes peacefully back to sleep. The incident is over, all forgotten.

 

Does this show that animals don't have a concept of "revenge". I'm not sure. Suppose you deliberately and repeatedly trod on the cat's tail, every time you encountered her.

 

Obviously, she'd soon learn to fear and avoid you. Running away from you on sight. But would she entertain thoughts of "revenge" in her simple cat mind?

 

Almost certainly not. Animals don't do "Revenge". It's a strictly human desire. We constantly think about it, but don't often get to do it, for fear of the consequences.

[dimreepr]

I agree and however I don't think you need a health reason for doing so but instead you can look at it logically because Logic usually determines and trumps emotions. We can feel emotions out of irrational poorly thought out ideas or observations which is useful from an evolutionary perspective.

 

 

 

You’re more than welcome to forgive however you wish, the results will be the same, but why would you deny the emotional satisfaction?

 

 

 

However there are two conflicting sides to humans. That animalistic drive for instant reaction lacking sufficient contemplation and then there's rational behavior. We find many examples of this animalistic behavior in our most prevalent forms of art such as movies and books

 

 

 

Why are your two sides conflicting?

Your emotions are ‘yours’ regardless of how much you don’t want them, accepting you have emotions doesn’t mean you have no choice but to act on them.

 

 

 

For example revenge, someone harms you, you harm back. However there are two conflicting sides to humans. That animalistic drive for instant reaction lacking sufficient contemplation and then there's rational behavior. We find many examples of this animalistic behavior in our most prevalent forms of art such as movies and books. Some guy kills someone close to the main character and the protagonist devotes his entire life to achieving revenge. However it's pretty difficult to determine whether revenge is justified unless one looks at it from a scientific perspective. Asking questions like what are humans? What drives humans? Do humans intentionally harm? These questions don't require some god to answer especially in the age of information however so many skip over this part and got straight to revenge. To summarize its easy to just act based on our emotions especially when those emotions are conjured from misunderstanding or lack of understanding however being that we desire to know truth we must be critical of our beliefs and understanding.

 

 

 

 

Revenge in films is more of a balm to society’s frustrations; it has no suitable place in reality.

Edited July 25, 2014 by dimreepr

[Awe]

 

You mention the "animalistic drive for instant reaction". That's like when you accidentally tread on the cat's tail. She feels pain, and instantly reacts by growling and clawing at your foot.

 

You mumble an apology "Sorry Puss". The words aren't literally understood by the cat. But she gets the drift from your placating tone of voice. And when you add further placatory measures, by gently stroking her back in a friendly, reassuring manner, she goes peacefully back to sleep. The incident is over, all forgotten.

 

Does this show that animals don't have a concept of "revenge". I'm not sure. Suppose you deliberately and repeatedly trod on the cat's tail, every time you encountered her.

 

Obviously, she'd soon learn to fear and avoid you. Running away from you on sight. But would she entertain thoughts of "revenge" in her simple cat mind?

 

Almost certainly not. Animals don't do "Revenge". It's a strictly human desire. We constantly think about it, but don't often get to do it, for fear of the consequences.

Great response I had no idea. That's just beautiful. But what do you think about revenge? Is it logical based on what science has discovered?

Edited October 21, 2014 by Awe

[MigL]

For a science forum, there's an awful lot of stuff in this thread like positive/negative energy, karma, etc.

Posters would be all over that if this related to religion.

 

Honestly people, we are animals, and if we had no moral codes ( provided by enlightenment and/or religion ), would do whatever pleased us, just like them. And most often, revenge IS pleasurable. Our moral codes allow us to suppress it ( not often enough ), and we rationalize that we are better for it.

 

What if you stepped on a cougar's tail, Dekan, do you think saying " Sorry Puss " and petting it a few times, would placate it and go back sleep ?

Or do you think it would rip your face off ?

[dimreepr]

For a science forum, there's an awful lot of stuff in this thread like positive/negative energy, karma, etc.

Posters would be all over that if this related to religion.

 

Honestly people, we are animals, and if we had no moral codes ( provided by enlightenment and/or religion ), would do whatever pleased us, just like them. And most often, revenge IS pleasurable. Our moral codes allow us to suppress it ( not often enough ), and we rationalize that we are better for it.

 

What if you stepped on a cougar's tail, Dekan, do you think saying " Sorry Puss " and petting it a few times, would placate it and go back sleep ?

Or do you think it would rip your face off ?

 

 

 

 

You may find revenge pleasurable but would you find the retaliation for your revenge pleasurable?

 

Are you suggesting a human (a social animal) is equivalent to a cougar (a solitary animal)?

 

Maybe I should have lead with this but; If you don’t like the topic don’t post.

[MigL]

I posted my OPINION on an open forum, dimreepr.

I am suggesting human nature is what it is, not what I, myself, find pleasurable.

Why did you not jump all over Dekan for suggesting a human is equivalent to a cat ?

Maybe next time you should lead with...

" If you don't share MY opinion, don't post "

[dimreepr]

By all means post what you want where you want, I just found your post reminiscent of the typical “outraged from Brentwood” complainant; who avidly watches the worst television programs searching for something to be offended by.

 

Human nature is mostly conformist and social BTW.

[2501]

My understanding is that forgivness actually does have measurable physiological benefits, most notably having the ability to lower one's blood pressure and increase the strength of your immune system, along with the typical psychological benefits. Of course, it is much easier said than done, as holding grudges tend to be a common failing among most humans...

[dimreepr]

holding grudges tend to be a common failing among most humans...

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

I often wonder by how much our culture is steered towards the need for revenge, by the media; be it movies, TV dramas, the numerous news channels whatever the medium and even in children’s entertainment.

Edited October 31, 2014 by dimreepr

[MigL]

I'm having a serious issue understanding the posts you've directed at me, dimreepr.

Where, for example, did I state I was offended by anything ?

 

It seems you have some pre-conceived notions about the intent of my posts.

Maybe you should just read the posts, and stop trying to read my mind.

 

Have I maybe offended YOU in some previous discussions ?

If so, I assure you it was purely intentional, as everyone has a right to an opinion, and no one has the right to not be offended.

And if I have previously offended you, are you now trying to take your revenge ?

( See how I kept this on topic ? )

[dimreepr]

I’m sorry if you think I’m in any way attacking you, not my intention.

 

Your confusion is clearly my fault but I thought the use of the word “reminiscent” would clearly indicate it shouldn’t

be taken literally and was merely a comment on the post, not the person.

 

You are free to post as I am free to comment on your post.

[2501]

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

I often wonder by how much our culture is steered towards the need for revenge, by the media; be it movies, TV dramas, the numerous news channels whatever the medium and even in children’s entertainment.

 

I don't think there is anyway to quantify it. But given that revenge tends to be codified in the creeds of whole religions (e.g. Islam, Bushido, etc.) I'm going to guess that it is prevalent to the point that it is probably in our nature to be vengeful. Revenge is probably an evolutionary artifact of our large brains and quite possibly the dark side of our ability to reflect upon things (including being able to remember our particular emotional state at the time that we were wronged).