What is space?

[pantheory]

Observations of all other space's, have a limit to what can fit into them, to a point where nothing added other, can fit in. Except astronomical space. What is this space? It seems to be a vast and endless void, where countless of solar systems can not only fit in quite comfortable, but can travel within it with relative ease. How could it be so vast that it's big enough to hold an event that hadn't taken place yet in advance, (Big bang theory). Take into account "Dark" matter/ energy which is theorized outside of traveling light being bent by it, what is it's relation to space, is it the fabric of or just another substance that popped up like we have been theorized too.

 

What space consists of is a matter of theory. My preference is that space is something very simple such as the distance between matter and the volume that matter and field occupies. Whether space has undiscovered entities within it is also a matter of theory. Such entities as dark matter, dark energy, gravitons, Higgs particles, quantum foam, the zero-point field, an aether of sorts, an entity containing particulates that behave like a super-fluid? etc.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140423095208.htm

 

Today there is no consensus answer as to what space is or what it might consist of but lots of related theory.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

There is indeed no consensus. And the question (What is space) contribute to the theories of Quantum Mechanics. So this basically is an inquiry of cognition, and it takes us where it goes.

 

Previously I agreed that a definition of space would have to encompass all of space on all levels. In an effort to give space a working definition.

The definition I gave is that:

 

Space is a void whose qualities are active upon interaction with matter.

 

By void I meant limitless. Further research have caused me to modify my definition too," Space being a limitless entity of special tape, which interaction's with matter, reveals it's special qualities". In this definition "Special" denotes a quality that is dense where interacted with, and flimsy where the interaction does not require the varying respondent density.

 

The structure of a atom, conforms to this. Take a atom eject a electron or add a electron, and the space around the nucleus reacts. The atmosphere around earth is made of gas's which are held in place by the gravity of the planet, could this be a interaction quality, of all the matter of earth/waves on this space tape. The space in a room seems to have the qualities of distance and volume, thus I conclude that space et al, must conform to the interaction placed upon it by the variable, otherwise it's inert, and of a special tape like substance.

[Endy0816]

The space in a room seems to have the qualities of distance and volume, thus I conclude that space et al, must conform to the interaction placed upon it by the variable, otherwise it's inert, and of a special tape like substance.

 

So for the same room, can this distance ever be said to vary?

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Yes, but the distance of the room is of no consequence, in relation to the interaction of the matter placed in it. Place a furnace in a room of regular dimensions, the heat from the furnace affects the whole of the room. Now change the dimensions of the room to something bigger, and the heat eventually affects that distance as well, now remove the walls completely, and the heat from the furnace will affect as much of the space as it can in accord with it's matter, or the heats interaction of any other substance like a gas within the space, that combined, then interacts with the space itself. Of course the walls are mentioned to make the point, since they will conform to a particular distance, but also indicate that with the walls in place, that makes the interaction with the space even more obvious. So the space is like a special tape whose adhesiveness only comes to be, upon being interacted upon by matter.

[Endy0816]

So what about the case of a furnace located inside a black hole or one located outside the our the observable Universe?

[Dr. Funkenstein]

The black hole is a tape (space) effected by interaction of tremendous gravitational influence, this force doesn't allow substance (matter) to exist in form, other then in its effect on it. The interaction of such a force on the tape makes it posses the properties we associate with black holes. A furnace outside of a observable universe, would follow the same course as one in a observable universe, the distance you allude to is a moot point, nor does it takes away from the special tape theory. If all of space was merely distance, then where would matter come from?. even if one accounts of quantum particles popping up from nothing and nowhere then disappearing or causing matter to appear, It still validates that matter's interaction with space (tape) is correct.

 

Light travels at great distance on the tape because of it's photonic makeup, thus the parts of space in which it travels is flimsy with minimal or no real interaction with the tape. however at the source of the light is heat (sun) and around that, the interaction with the tape is immense, and there you have a glow. So the photons of light surrounding the sun stay there in that interaction of heat and space, but other particles of the photons escape and travel, distance of space have no bearing since there interaction in the tape is non existent , further making my point of what space is. and explaining how light travels at such great speed.

[Kramer]

Mordred

 

"the zero point energy due to the Heisenburg uncertainty principle is"

 

------- For a curious lay - man what is: e ?

[Strange]

Mordred

 

"the zero point energy due to the Heisenburg uncertainty principle is"

 

------- For a curious lay - man what is: e ?

 

 

e is "the zero point energy due to the Heisenburg uncertainty principle"; i.e. the lowest energy state of the vacuum.

Edited June 24, 2014 by Strange

[Endy0816]

The black hole is a tape (space) effected by interaction of tremendous gravitational influence, this force doesn't allow substance (matter) to exist in form, other then in its effect on it. The interaction of such a force on the tape makes it posses the properties we associate with black holes.

 

So it only impacts matter? Light will be okay? Why is the black hole black then?

 

 

 

A furnace outside of a observable universe, would follow the same course as one in a observable universe, the distance you allude to is a moot point, nor does it takes away from the special tape theory.

 

But we don't find this to be true in Reality.

 

What could keep us from feeling the heat radiated by your hypothetical furnace? Assume empty void between here and there, so no need to worry about absorption or anything else.

 

Note: 'Observable' is not an allusion to a particular distance. The whole of what you will ever be able to see could fit inside your dwelling and it would make no meaningful difference(though it would necessitate a face to face conversation).

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Light being electromagnetic radiation does not escape the vortex of a black hole, since in space all, outside of the tape, is matter. On the event horizon of the black hole, light is concentrated, this is due to the light being in close proximity to its source of heat, entering into a black hole it too is rendered moot due to the overwhelming gravitational force of the black hole. Absorption of photonic light here under this planets (earth) total interactions with it's tape, ie gravity, air pressure, magnetic etc takes on the overall quantity of earths interactions with it's tape. In space where the interactions with plain photonic light ( light without the source) the tape is flimsy, minimal interactions with. As such this light has no physics expectations to contend with.

 

The tape of space prevents us from feeling the heat of the furnace, the in between here and there is not void per se, but more inactive, until it's interacted upon by.....

Our sun is of a proximity where we can both feel the heat and observe the light, Uranus on the other hand gets the light, but not the heat because its point of interaction with the tape does not account for heat like our special tape (area of space) does in it's interaction's.

[Strange]

Our sun is of a proximity where we can both feel the heat and observe the light, Uranus on the other hand gets the light, but not the heat because its point of interaction with the tape does not account for heat like our special tape (area of space) does in it's interaction's.

 

The amount of light and heat received by Uranus are reduced by exactly the same amount (inversely proportional to the square of distance).

[Mordred]

Light being electromagnetic radiation does not escape the vortex of a black hole, since in space all, outside of the tape, is matter. On the event horizon of the black hole, light is concentrated, this is due to the light being in close proximity to its source of heat, entering into a black hole it too is rendered moot due to the overwhelming gravitational force of the black hole. Absorption of photonic light here under this planets (earth) total interactions with it's tape, ie gravity, air pressure, magnetic etc takes on the overall quantity of earths interactions with it's tape. In space where the interactions with plain photonic light ( light without the source) the tape is flimsy, minimal interactions with. As such this light has no physics expectations to contend with.

 

The tape of space prevents us from feeling the heat of the furnace, the in between here and there is not void per se, but more inactive, until it's interacted upon by.....

Our sun is of a proximity where we can both feel the heat and observe the light, Uranus on the other hand gets the light, but not the heat because its point of interaction with the tape does not account for heat like our special tape (area of space) does in it's interaction's.

 

 

No offense but you really need to understand whats in the box before you start thinking whats outside it.

 

"this is due to the light being in close proximity to its source of heat" are you saying the BH is the source of heat?

 

"the tape is flimsy, minimal interactions with. As such this light has no physics expectations to contend with."

 

this tape model of yours is just another attempt to apply a substance to the volume of space, no physics model or recognized theory tells us that space itself is other than volume, the volume may be filled with other particles both virtual and real, however this does not imply space itself is a substance. Even string theory does not try to describe space as a substance. ( sounds to me your merely replacing the term "fabric of space" with tape).

Edited June 26, 2014 by Mordred

[Nicholas Kang]

Space is not a substance. It is where substances are located in.

[Nicholas Kang]

Things get even complicated when you see it as space-time continuum.

[Kramer]

 

---- Thanks Strange for your answer. I was in dilemma about “ e” as electric charge and “v” as velocity. In this my case:

e = square root ( h * C * 2 * α * ε0 )
which is a real physics reality. My mistake.

Now please to be patient with me to debate about “ lowest energy state of vacuum”, sure in my concepts as a lay-man:
1- About “v” as frequency = 1 / T = C / ((2*pi / α) * R), --- is it frequency of what?
Sure as the result of an electromagnetic process.
Which implies existence of electric charges in movement.
The electric charges which exists where?
----- in the structure of space.
But we say that space hasn’t any structure.
You may say:
Wrong concept.
Frequency is about vibration of space-time continuum.
And here my lay-man’s faculty are out of grasp.

Because the space and time, for me, out of existence of mater (mass or mass less -- without importance) has not any sense.
2—I think that exist two kind of space:

An ideal space without limits, with out structure, without dimensions- short an unlimited void.
About this void Euklides and De Cartes, created their idealistic concepts of point, line , surface, volume, direction and three dimensions. And further, others, created idealistic math, with more dimensions.
These concept are borrowed by “ material objects “, those, which in fact, fills this ideal space and create the vision of the physical space.

2—The physical space, in my idea, is an unlimited spread of Democritis sub particles which possess “electric opposite property” and “gravity opposite property”. Those sub particles, with their contradictory properties create material mass or mass-less particles : barions and bosons.
The mass particles, creates cosmic bodies, mass-less particles creates different fields, and antigravity sub particles that are unable to create common particles fills space between mass particles.
Those are my naïve ideas about this thread.

[Strange]

 

---- Thanks Strange for your answer. I was in dilemma about “ e” as electric charge and “v” as velocity.

 

Actually, the "v" is supposed to represent the Greek letter nu, [latex]\nu[/latex], which is used for frequency (for reasons I am not sure of).

 

 

1- About “v” as frequency = 1 / T = C / ((2*pi / α) * R), --- is it frequency of what?

 

Frequency of a photon (I assume; I am not quite sure where Mordred got this equation from for this context. It kinda makes sense on an intuitive level, but is not something I am familiar with.)

 

 

Which implies existence of electric charges in movement.

The electric charges which exists where?

 

There are no charges involved. It is just an oscillation in the electromagnetic field.

 

 

Frequency is about vibration of space-time continuum.

 

Not as far as I am aware. (Or, rather, only for gravitational waves, not electromagnetic waves.)

 

The rest of your post appears to be philosophy, not physics, so I have no comment.

[Mordred]

the zero point energy equation and its relation to the uncertainty principle and how it is derived is shown here

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

 

QFT defines it as.

"Vacuum energy is the zero-point energy of all the fields in space, which in the Standard Model includes the electromagnetic field, other gauge fields, fermionic fields, and the Higgs field. It is the energy of the vacuum, which in quantum field theory is defined not as empty space but as the ground state of the field"

 

however the virtual particle production is in the form of photons (matter/antimatter photons-photons has no charge) so in QM its also sometimes called "quantum electromagnetic zero point energy"

 

another related subject is the quantum harmonic oscillator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_harmonic_oscillator

 

QM isn't my strongest subject, still studying my QM and QFT textbooks. so for the finer details I recommend asking on the QM forum, I needed to understand this particular subject as it is oft related to cosmology models,

 

at one time it was thought to be the cause of the cosmological constant, but its energy level was shown to be 120 magnitudes of order too large. However there is numerous papers that indicate that the cosmological constant may or may not be the Higg's field metastability, (more research is needed on the Higg's to know if the models are reasonable or not)

 

this thread has some of the related articles

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/83765-higgs-field-thermodynamic-research-cmb-and-now/

Edited June 27, 2014 by Mordred

[Phi for All]

Those are my naïve ideas about this thread.

 

!

Moderator Note

Speculative ideas which should NOT be in a mainstream section where students come for mainstream explanations. Further responses to this speculation risk being split off from the main thread.

 

Report this modnote if you disagree, but don't discuss it here.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

"Nullum magnum ingenum sine mixtrua dementiae fuit"

 

In Summary: Space appears to have one (2) qualities, 1. Low temperature, 2. Capacity (for interactions), otherwise it is inert, Until acted upon by matter. Various matters may interact amongst themselves, and then combined, have a interaction on space. This space can be allegorical to what I call "Special Tape" the special denotes space reactions to the matter interacting with it, in accord with the properties of the matter, singular or combined. Distance and volume are of no consequence, when related to space.

[`hýsøŕ]

by asking the question 'what is space' you're really asking 'is there some classical object for which space is analogous to' and so you will never find a satisfactory answer, because an object lies within a space, but it cannot be a space itself, there's a fundamental distinction. you cannot say a tennis ball is like space in any way, same as you can't a cloud, a tank of water, a gas molecule, a quark, a galaxy, etc...

 

you cannot make a satisfactory definition of space in terms of every day physical interactions existing inside space, because there you're defining something happening inside the space and not the space itself.

 

the best you could try and do is to say that a space is a collection of points related mathematically by some function expressing (and also representing) the distance between any 2 points as a real, positive number (this number, although would be describing the distance, would only make conceptual sense to a being trapped within laws of physics where the word 'distance' means something conceptual to them, we are such beings). here a point could be defined as a mathematical entity who's numerical value is determined by the distance function in terms of the distance to other points. there is no absolute point from which you can call an origin.

Edited June 30, 2014 by `hýsøŕ

[derek w]

"what is space?" you could also ask "what are particles?"

We have mathematical models that describe how particles move and interact,but that does not tell us what they consist of(if anything).

[Nicholas Kang]

Then, you should invent a mathematical model for that. And get Nobel Prize. Good luck.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Weird, It seems as if some physic's have announced this new theory on what time-space is, ironically there space is called "special Foam", other then that it has all the same qualities as my term of special tape.

[Mordred]

no actually you never described your special tape in the same terms as quantum foam, by the way there is more evidence showing that space is smooth not lumpy and quantum foam has yet to be validated, the evidence points against quantum foam. Not for it.

 

http://www.space.com/19202-einstein-space-time-smooth.html

 

by the way post 42 is essentially the same as quantum foam if you look at the metrics, which you never bothered doing or posting for your model. Even then quantum foam is still a geometric descriptive of virtual particle interactions. Its still not saying space has substance where your special tape analogy does. Also the quantum foam conjecture suffers from the problem of being 120 magnitudes of order too large in terms of energy. You can't trust pop media article descriptive's. Yes I posted one this time but only because I had already posted a detailed descriptive.

 

just as a side note, photons is a particle, however it isn't considered to be matter though. The virtual particles in quantum foam is virtual photons.

 

see this thread for details

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/84242-definition-of-matter-split-from-could-matter-exist-of-energy/#entry815149

 

 

Space is a void whose qualities are active upon interaction with matter.

 

By void I meant limitless. Further research have caused me to modify my definition too," Space being a limitless entity of special tape, which interaction's with matter, reveals it's special qualities". In this definition "Special" denotes a quality that is dense where interacted with, and flimsy where the interaction does not require the varying respondent density.

 

The structure of a atom, conforms to this. Take a atom eject a electron or add a electron, and the space around the nucleus reacts. The atmosphere around earth is made of gas's which are held in place by the gravity of the planet, could this be a interaction quality, of all the matter of earth/waves on this space tape. The space in a room seems to have the qualities of distance and volume, thus I conclude that space et al, must conform to the interaction placed upon it by the variable, otherwise it's inert, and of a special tape like substance.

 

 

this is your special tape descriptive which has nothing to do with quantum foam, and has zero simularities

Edited July 9, 2014 by Mordred

[pavelcherepan]

I like this discussion, it's very interesting. Allow me to share some thoughts on the matter, although I don't claim to be trained in cosmology.

 

The one definition of space that I like is "Space is where physical processes take place". I know, it's quite primary school'ish but I still like it. With that definition in mind I can't help but ask whether or not we can view space as merely a volume (or space-time as volume+time) in separation from the mass-energy that populates it? Does it even make sense to talk about 'empty space'?

 

If we can talk about it on its own than it's all simple - we're just left with 3 spatial dimensions and one time dimension that defines space.

 

If we can't view space in separation from mass-energy than space would also have a curvature as an inherent characterictic. Obviously, on a cosmological scale the space is considered flat but locally the curvature can be anything.

Edited July 9, 2014 by pavelcherepan