Nicholas Kang Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 Is religion created by Science or Science is created by religion?
ajb Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 I am not sure how to answer that, both are rooted deep in our culture. Anyway, both religion and science have similar goals "to understand our world and place in it". Both have spawned from man's curiosity. However the two are now very different. 1
Nicholas Kang Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Dear Mr.ajb, may I ask you why did you say "religion is to understand our world and place in it?" Edited June 12, 2014 by Nicholas Kang
ajb Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 Dear Mr.ajb, may I ask you why did you say "religion is to understand our world and place in it?" Do you diagree? That is my experience of religion. We have creation myths, which attempt to give an explanation of how the Universe came to exists. Religion also tends to place moral codes on us, many of these can in fact be understood in terms of evolution, but that is another story. 1
Nicholas Kang Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 You believe in universe creation myths? I do trust moral values. But universe creation myths is somewhat crazy and make no sense.
ajb Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 You believe in universe creation myths? There are many myths. I do not subscribe to any of them. I hope I did not give you the impression that I do believe in such myths. The point I was making is that science and religion both came from our curiosity and the want for answers. How they come to such answers is very different and as are the answers themselves.
Nicholas Kang Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) I know what you mean. But it seems that what you say only makes sense in Science. Science came form curiosity and the want of answers. Yet, I can`t understand why people are curious about god and religion and want to find answers about God. Isn`t curious about Science is more practical than curious about God? You can see and feel Science but you can`t feel God or even see God. Edited June 12, 2014 by Nicholas Kang
ajb Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 Isn`t curious about Science is more practical than curious about God. More practical in the sense that you can actually disprove statements in science as where religion you need faith. I don't know much about why anthropologists think religion developed, but it is clearly from observation of our world and not understanding the mechanisms. Very early religions I imagine were based on trying to explain day and night, the seasons, life and death and so on. If one could not think of a reason as to how something happens just attribute it to some supernatural beings. Of course, organised religion is a way to keep power over the people, but that is a different story.
Ophiolite Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 Many people are uncomfortable with uncertainty. They would like answers that are clear, unambiguous and available today. Religion can meet these needs. Moreover the message delivered by many religions is a positive one for believers: immortality and a wonderful life after death in paradise. Also, religions provide a clear moral framework, identifying what is right and what is wrong. That removes the responsibility of working out what is right and wrong from the individual: they do not have to think for themselves. Others are gifted with the same desire for answers, but are ready to accept that they will never live to see all their questions answered. They often find that science provides an efficient means of answering at least some of the questions and of generating new questions. These people are comfortable with the uncertainty. They may not like it, but they accept it. Indeed it is the unknown that could be known that fascinates them. Scientists are not persons who know things, they are persons who find out things - that is a different and more exciting thing, for a scientist.
Phi for All Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 I think our imaginations created religion, and when religion's explanations began to fail we developed science. Imagination is a function of high intelligence, and as evolutionary pressures selected those traits we began to move beyond what we could see and started imagining things we couldn't see.
Nicholas Kang Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 To Mr. Ophiolite, How would you explain why there are 2 types of people which you have mentioned in the above reply? One type of person likes and prefer Science while the other prefer religion? To Mr. Phi For All, If you say religion fell after the rise of Science. then how would you explain the current religion after its fell and rise of Science?
pwagen Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 If you say religion fell after the rise of Science. then how would you explain the current religion after its fell and rise of Science?If I'm not misunderstanding things, there seems to be a strong trend that developed, "rich" countries are steadily dropping religion. So there's that. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2597891/Losing-religion-New-research-shows-religion-declined-Internet-use-increased.html http://tobingrant.religionnews.com/2014/01/27/great-decline-religion-united-states-one-graph/ http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/23/study-religion-may-head-toward-extinction-in-many-western-countries/
Phi for All Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 If you say religion fell after the rise of Science. then how would you explain the current religion after its fell and rise of Science? I didn't say religion fell. I said religious explanations began to fail as our knowledge of the real world increased. God(s) always filled the gaps in our understanding. We used god(s) infinite power to explain what was going on with the thunder and lightning and the seasons or whatever. As we improved our knowledge of the real world, the gaps where superstition and supernatural speculation were needed become smaller. At some point, you have to ask yourself if we really need god(s) to explain anything. Personally, I think early tribes of humans developed the ability to think ahead further and further to insure their survival. It's easy to see how forward thinking could lead to seeing tigers in the shadows. It must have seemed like magic to early humans when one of their own predicted that an enemy was nearby but couldn't be seen. People like that would end up being revered for their ability to keep the tribe safe from unseen enemies. And it's very easy to see how that would lead to imagining unseen friends as well. 1
Nicholas Kang Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 If religion didn`t fell, then you mean religion first, science next because religion promotes the space for imagination and then the void is filled by science later on?
Ophiolite Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 To Mr. Ophiolite, How would you explain why there are 2 types of people which you have mentioned in the above reply? One type of person likes and prefer Science while the other prefer religion? There is survival value in both approaches and therefore these characteristics have both been favoured by natural selection.
Nicholas Kang Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 How would explain there is a survival value in both approaches? What is the value? How would you explain these characteristics have been both favoured by natural selection?
Phi for All Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 If religion didn`t fell, then you mean religion first, science next because religion promotes the space for imagination and then the void is filled by science later on? Imagination surely came first. This led to speculating on the existence of things unseen, which led to religion. Religion actually doesn't promote space for imagination; instead, it promotes a single way of living life with a single belief system rigidly set out so believers can achieve whatever has been promised to them. Where religion fails, science has a better view of reality. We can use our imaginations for more trustworthy explanations and predictions using scientific methodology. The god(s) of the gaps with all their contradictory logic get squeezed out in favor of ideas that match what we actually observe happening. 1
Nicholas Kang Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 So, after religion falls, Science take over? Your sequence is Imagination-religion-science? How is it possible to say live with belief something is unseen and can achieve whatever has been promised to them? This sounds crazy. You mean just pray for something unseen to make it happen, then it will happen? It is impossible. You believe something will happen through religion and believers can achieve whatever has been promised to them?
Ophiolite Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 How would explain there is a survival value in both approaches? What is the value? How would you explain these characteristics have been both favoured by natural selection? The preference for the scientific approach has led to modern technical civilisation. I think the survival advantages of this are obvious. The religious approach has often been associated with individuals who have a pre-programmed reaction to situations: their religion tells them what to do. Someone who can act promptly will often survive because their action has been prompt, not because it is the best solution. In contrast the science minded, who analyse the situation may react too slowly. Eventually they may have come up with a better solution, but if they are dead they never get to try it. This is a simplification of the concepts. There has been research into these things, but I do not have references at present. There is no problem with natural selection favouring two differing characteristics if the environment contains circumstances that favour first one, then the other.
Nicholas Kang Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 Why natural selection? Why not other theories? How would you explain the environment contains circumstances that favour the first one and/or the other. You are in the environment, not outside the environment and not the environment. How can you be so sure about the above statement?
Delta1212 Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 The preference for the scientific approach has led to modern technical civilisation. I think the survival advantages of this are obvious. The religious approach has often been associated with individuals who have a pre-programmed reaction to situations: their religion tells them what to do. Someone who can act promptly will often survive because their action has been prompt, not because it is the best solution. In contrast the science minded, who analyse the situation may react too slowly. Eventually they may have come up with a better solution, but if they are dead they never get to try it. This is a simplification of the concepts. There has been research into these things, but I do not have references at present. There is no problem with natural selection favouring two differing characteristics if the environment contains circumstances that favour first one, then the other. It's not a coincidence, I think, that science tends to flourish in places and among people that have a lot of time and wealth that doesn't need to be spent on basic survival. When you're "wandering in the wilderness" and your primary concern is where your next meal is coming from and how you're going to fend off threats, a religious proscription on shellfish makes sense. They go bad easily and can make you sick. It's better to avoid eating it than gamble with your health, especially when get sick is even more dangerous than in a society with modern healthcare. A lot of religious rules can be traced to a practice of saying "This behavior had a good/bad result. Keep/stop doing it, and here's a best guess as to why or a story to help you remember to do it/not do it." When people aren't so concerned about day to day survival, there is time to figure out whether some practice really is a good or bad idea and, if so, why. We can, for instance, figure out what causes shellfish to make you sick and then figure out ways to preserve, prepare and consume them that avoid the undesirable outcome. When you don't have the time and resources to do this, however, it's generally better to just follow the rules than to experiment with breaking them and wind up getting yourself killed or seriously disrupting the functioning of your society (and thus putting at risk a lot of people who rely on that society to survive). Religion in this case is quite literally the poor man's science, because scientific inquiry is a luxury.
Nicholas Kang Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 Religion did teach us good values. I agree with that. You mean people with poor Science should go for religion? Why don`t they just continue to improve their scientific knowledge? It is not wrong to do that. Science has scientific good/moral values too.
Phi for All Posted June 12, 2014 Posted June 12, 2014 So, after religion falls, Science take over? Your sequence is Imagination-religion-science? How is it possible to say live with belief something is unseen and can achieve whatever has been promised to them? This sounds crazy. You mean just pray for something unseen to make it happen, then it will happen? It is impossible. You believe something will happen through religion and believers can achieve whatever has been promised to them? I don't believe in god(s) at all, I see no evidence of them or any need, but officially I don't know. Scientifically, we can't know anything about something that can't be observed. I'm sorry, but I write the words I write very carefully, and you seem to misunderstand or misrepresent most of them. I also think you're arguments try to convert a very complicated and nuanced subject into something very simple so you can better understand it. This may seem like a good approach, but to understand something like the relationship between imagination, religion, and science more fully, you need to figure out how all the parts work together. You won't get that by not listening to the other sides of the conversation.
Nicholas Kang Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 Sorry. So, can you tell me all the parts in details? I don`t think such things exist in Wikipedia, do you? Listening to the other sides of conversation? What conversation?
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