imatfaal Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 There are separate things but same source-you. They criticize your work because it is you who have done it. It is your problem that leads to your work being criticized. "They criticize your work because it is you who have done it." This is where we disagree. Some people may give positive or negative reputation merely because a certain member has made a post - but I believe that is infrequent, it is against the spirit of the reputation system, and it soon becomes clear what is happening and other members will rectify it. Most members give positive or negative feedback on the post itself - not on the poster. But the post is made by the member. The member determines the quality of the post. As there is no immediate feedback as there would be in a face to face conversation how are members to know how their posts are being received? - and without that knowledge how can they improve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Kang Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 How can it be possible that a post can be made by more than 2 users/posters? So, it is very clear that every posts made by a poster clearly reflects his/her personality except his/her account is being hacked. I know that members give positive and negative feedback on the post itself and not the poster but when we trace back to the source-it is the poster. It is also ridiculous for a poster to have 2 personality. For example, poster A posts harsh words and inaccurate scientific theories in a thread but then he post another post with clear and vivid explanation about religion or other mature science fields and get +2 reputation points in the second post but -2 in the first post, so offsetting each other and you get zero. This is very unlikely to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Why don`t just ignore it? Then, no more neg-rep and saves time. I don't want to ignore rude and unpleasant posts - I want people to stop making them so the forum runs more smoothly. Sometime I can do that with a big red mod note; on other occasions were the nastiness is low grade I negrep or if I have time post a message supportive of the injured party. All that is necessary for SFN to become 4Chan is for good members to do nothing (with sincere apologies to Burke or whoever I am paraphrasing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Kang Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 Ok, that is a moderator`s job. I understand it. So, no more alternatives? Why don`t just ban the user and that`s all. Keep advising is just a waste of time for those offenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Ok, that is a moderator`s job. I understand it. So, no more alternatives? Why don`t just ban the user and that`s all. Why no middle ground? Loads of options in answer to bad post: support alternative, neg-rep, openly engage with poster, PM to poster, mod tip (green), modnote (red), warning points etc. There is a huge range of alternatives and sometimes the best option is the minus 1 red neg tip. Unlike the others it can be cancelled out by other members who plus rep if they feel it is unfair. It is quick and easy. It is relatively innocuous, anonymous to an extent, yet public. In some cases it just fits the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) You misunderstand, Nicholas: “ but I believe that is infrequent, it is against the spirit of the reputation system, and it soon becomes clear what is happening and other members will rectify it.” By this he simply means, when a different member see’s a post’s reputation is misplaced he will press the opposite coloured arrow to cancel it, within the same post. Edit/ cross posted Edited June 20, 2014 by dimreepr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 What do you mean by I am doing well? I am just a secondary school student, anyway. For the posts where you're discussing science, you're doing well for a secondary school student. You've spent a great deal of your early time criticizing the site, but we expect that. Young people and questioning authority and wondering why things are the way they are go hand in hand in hand. It's healthy, to a point. By now, you've hopefully realized nobody is going to eat you. Everyone wants you to succeed here, and be a meaningful and productive part of our discussions. Just keep learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 But intelligent, kind and good looking people can say things that are stupid, or just wrong. Pointing out that their statement is incorrect (or even stupid) does not mean that you don't think that they are intelligent, kind, etc. If someone says that your guitar playing is terrible, or tells you that you can't spell, or that you have misunderstood physics they are not criticising you they are criticising your work. These are separate things. I agree with the first part, but no so much the second. If they are general statements, especially ones like you can't spell, then they are more of an attack than criticism. (Bad spelling is a pretty feeble excuse for criticism, but that's another issue). IMO criticism really should be specific to a post and not overly broad. One can play a song badly, spell a word incorrectly or misunderstand some aspect of physics, and pointing out the specifics is criticism. Overly broad and it's hard to differentiate it from "you suck" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arc Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 The funniest problem is when a member creates a new account for the sole purpose of giving themselves reputation points, as if meaningless Internet points are sufficiently meaningful for that to be worthwhile. I made up a game for that once. Back when Pure Genius was up voting himself every day I enjoyed going all Wack-a-mole down vote on his thread. It was great fun! You know, I don't think I have down voted anyone since then. Could we have down vote counters next to our avatar? That would shake things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 If they are general statements, especially ones like you can't spell, then they are more of an attack than criticism. You are absolutely right. I should have said "points out that spelt a word wrong" or something (and I was definitely not thinking in terms of using that as an excuse to attack someone's argument, more in the context of reviewing a piece of writing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Could we have down vote counters next to our avatar? That would shake things up. That’s a good idea but only if there’s also a positive counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arc Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) That’s a good idea but only if there’s also a positive counter. I don't know about that one. I'm kind of wanting to have certain individuals who I see as rather loose, or is it generous, with the downvote button to see the metric of their ways. A "I give the most up votes" contest could really diminish the value of really deserving one. Kind of like printing too much money and getting the inflation as a result, lowering the value of the individual dollar (up vote). It could be the date of the last downvote given. Maybe a counter under a fitting motto like: Credo quia absurdum Edited June 22, 2014 by arc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I don't know about that one. I'm kind of wanting to have certain individuals who I see as rather loose, or is it generous, with the downvote button to see the metric of their ways. A "I give the most up votes" contest could really diminish the value of really deserving one. Kind of like printing too much money and getting the inflation as a result, lowering the value of the individual dollar (up vote). My thinking, was, people would have a way to distinguish between a purely negative voter and a broadly fair or positive voter; however I think your objection to my idea is equally plausible (slightly differently maybe) in your scenario, so perhaps this idea is just a dead end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 We've started a usergroup of members who won't get any negative rep points because of vendettas and other abuse. We won't be mentioning who gets put in that group, but the Admins have easy ways of finding stalkers and abusers, and they'll stop getting any negative votes. Their numbers jump out, and a quick investigation usually shows who they've decided to torment. I'm glad to hear so many members talk about reversing rep when they see a vote that makes no sense. That's part of the system too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 We've started a usergroup of members who won't get any negative rep points because of vendettas and other abuse. We won't be mentioning who gets put in that group, but the Admins have easy ways of finding stalkers and abusers, and they'll stop getting any negative votes. Their numbers jump out, and a quick investigation usually shows who they've decided to torment. I'm glad to hear so many members talk about reversing rep when they see a vote that makes no sense. That's part of the system too. The system may not be broken, but the odd positive tweak, is always welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arc Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 My thinking, was, people would have a way to distinguish between a purely negative voter and a broadly fair or positive voter; however I think your objection to my idea is equally plausible (slightly differently maybe) in your scenario, so perhaps this idea is just a dead end. There are times when I suspect a third party downvote is given for personal reasons rather than content reasons (some people just can't let go ) at situations where a clever barb or saying nothing would be more appropriate. They have a "My team against yours" mentality. The opportunistic down voter. Spectator hooliganism, thats what it is! I'll bet that metric would show on some individuals as a higher than average total if a negative vote per post was tallied. Sort of a pin the tail on the donkey metric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzkpfw Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 (edited) My thinking, was, people would have a way to distinguish between a purely negative voter and a broadly fair or positive voter; however I think your objection to my idea is equally plausible (slightly differently maybe) in your scenario, so perhaps this idea is just a dead end.I'd show up votes received and down votes given. (If at all, I'd not actually argue this is required on the site.) Both are numbers hard to game, and their ratio might also be useful. Edited June 22, 2014 by pzkpfw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acme Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I'd show up votes received and down votes given. (If at all, I'd not actually argue this is required on the site.) Both are numbers hard to game, and their ratio might also be useful. While not a perfect analog to batting average, dividing rep points by total posts is an interesting statistic to take and compare among members. In this vein the more light-hearted gaming of forum posting is brought to the plate. Batter up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arc Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I made up a game for that once. Back when Pure Genius was up voting himself every day I enjoyed going all Wack-a-mole down vote on his thread. It was great fun! You know, I don't think I have down voted anyone since then. Could we have down vote counters next to our avatar? That would shake things up. UPDATE: I carpet bombed someone yesterday, gave em' all three . . . I don't know what came over me . . . . . . oh yeah, now I remember Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
physica Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) I'm sure we've all get a neg rep once or twice. I certainly have however, it gives you a chance to look back at that post to see why. Members with a huge negative total rep usually fire off a post resulting in something like a -4 rep. Instead of looking at it they fire off post after post with the same mistakes. It takes perseverance and repeatedly ramming faulty logic and ignorance down other people's throats to get a big neg rep. Edited June 25, 2014 by physica 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Kang Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 You misunderstand, Nicholas: “ but I believe that is infrequent, it is against the spirit of the reputation system, and it soon becomes clear what is happening and other members will rectify it.” By this he simply means, when a different member see’s a post’s reputation is misplaced he will press the opposite coloured arrow to cancel it, within the same post. Edit/ cross posted Ok, thanks. Why no middle ground? Loads of options in answer to bad post: support alternative, neg-rep, openly engage with poster, PM to poster, mod tip (green), modnote (red), warning points etc. There is a huge range of alternatives and sometimes the best option is the minus 1 red neg tip. Unlike the others it can be cancelled out by other members who plus rep if they feel it is unfair. It is quick and easy. It is relatively innocuous, anonymous to an extent, yet public. In some cases it just fits the bill. In other cases? Does it fit the bill anymore? Yes, I agree with the fact that sometimes -1 is the best option but there must be a way that is exactly the same as -1 but at least not that hurting as -1 although the message is the same-tell you what`s wrong with you. Punishment is always needed but can be in different ways and different magnitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Nicholas, are you familiar with the expression "Let's cut to the chase."? It means, let's get to the main issue, let's deal with what is at the heart of the matter, let's discard all the peripheral stuff and discuss what is important. I think it is this - please correct me if I am wrong. You are fifteen years old. You are human. Humans are sensitive beings. Fifteen year old human beings, adolescents in an adult world, are especially sensitive. You received one more negative reputation points and it hurt you. It still hurts you. Am I correct? If I am, then consider this: 1) You will experience orders of magnitude more hurt than that in the future. 2) Life is filled with hurt. 3) Growing up is about learning how to deal with that hurt positively. 4) Isn't it time to move on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Kang Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 You know, your words: "You received one more negative reputation point and it hurts you" scares me. I did thought I am being -1 again. Ok, so I won`t interfere adults` matter, is that ok? But, wait a minute, adolescences and adults share the common "space" in this forum. Why don`t the administrators create a brand new forum specifically for teenagers but under supervision of adults. Then, no problem of interference. If you say I shouldn`t interfere adults` matters. This means I shouldn`t create this topic at first, and this is what you mean? Because reputations system is adults` matter and adolescences cannot interfere and speak but only use the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I am not doing a good job of explaining myself and I apologise for that. Of course you should participate in this forum. It is for everyone who has an interest in science. You are most welcome here. Please continue to post, ask questions, start threads, and make comments. I am suggesting you started this thread because you were hurt by receiving a negative reputation mark. I am trying to explain to you that that is not important. That you seem to be very worried about it and you should not be. Part of maturing is learning to put things like that, which hurt at the time, behind you - move on to more positive things in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Kang Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) Great, you seemed like understanding me even better than my mom. I am not only starting this thread for myself but for the others that were being hurt in this forum due to just simply a (or more) -1. I know what you mean, i understand. i really understand but I don`t think -1 is the only way to learn things like that but teaching you lessons behing every -1. There should be other ways and can still produce the same effect as what you say, and at least not that hurting. And why not just ban the user when a certain pre-set limit is achieved. Let say -5. If someone gain a total reputation points of -5 or worse than it will be automatically being expelled or have their membership terminated. Then, the problem is solved. I am most welcome here? How can you conclude this fact without showing me any prooves? I think I am the most hated member in this forum for posting hurting posts and topics like this one-Why Reputations?... And I seemed to have annoyed many experts, moderators and administrators. Edited June 25, 2014 by Nicholas Kang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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