What Does Law Means? Fair? Unfair?

[Nicholas Kang]

We follow laws all over the world. I am a secondary school student. In my school, the discipline unit listed a few prohibited items that should not be brought to school. Students should follow them. In the true world, we have international laws and protocols. Laws have their functions. I classify them into clear/obvious and non-obvious. It is very obvious that the international laws and protocols have a obvious meaning of punishing those who are wrong. The non-obvious meaning is teaching us lessons and warning us not to repeat mistakes.

 

However, the school laws are the opposite. For example, prohibited items are mostly dangerous items like knife, guns, weapons and so on. But, is it fair if I say liquid correction fluid and tissues are prohibited items? I did ask my principal, he told me the following reasons.

 

Correction fluid: It may be used by students that opt for vandalism and use that to draw tables and spoil chairs.

Tissues: It might be used by students that use them and throw it into the sink in the Science Lab and thus clogging the sink.

 

How unfair it is. You must understand that not all school students do vandalism and misuse tissues. Law punish people after they did something wrong. But prohibited items like those that I have mentioned above shouldn`t be prohibited items. Prohibited items are under strict school law control. Law in school, on the other way, obviously wants to teach you lesson and not repeat and only if you do it then you will be punished, the opposite of international, national laws and protocols.

 

This way of punishment brings to me a lot of disadvantages.

 

What does law means? Fair? Unfair?

Edited June 13, 2014 by Nicholas Kang

[Ophiolite]

My perception of the law is that it is about effective regulation of society and the interactions of members of that society. In general, I think fairness is incidental.

 

Since you have frequently misunderstood what I am saying, let me clarify. I am not saying that this is a good thing. I am not commenting on whether it is good or bad, I am telling you how I think things are. I may be mistaken, but this is broadly what I think is the case.

 

As to the regulations in force at your school, frankly, if you don't like them, tough. Administering a school, trying to ensure all children receive a good education, seeking to balance many conflicting needs, is a seriously difficult job. Will some decisions be a disadvantage to some pupils? Of course they will. Tough.

 

If you don't like it then you need to look beyond your own personal disadvantage, consider why the rules were implemented and then seek to find an alternative way of dealing with the issue. If you can find an alternative you then have to sell it to the teaching staff. If you can't do that, then you have to accept the rule as it is.

 

As far as the correction fluid is concerned, I would have thought this would be more to do with substance abuse.

[Nicholas Kang]

Mr.Ophiolite, you see, I am trying my best not to misunderstand your words. I try not to let you down. So, this time, no sorry, no sorry. I won`t apologize, and I think you should be satisfy, shouldn`t you? Anyway, thanks for your comment. I will try it, but it is not every time I have the opportunity to see my principal.

[ajb]

What does law means? Fair? Unfair?

You are talking about school rules and not the law. Many of the rules of school you could break are not punishable under law. Some are, but these will be actually against the law.

 

Are laws fair? Well not necessarily on the individual, but maybe for the collective. Indeed, here in the west we try to balance the law for the best interest of the collective without destroying the rights and freedoms of the individual. We don't always get it right, but that is the ethos.

[Nicholas Kang]

So?

[ajb]

So?

You asked if the law is fair or unfair. I gave my opinion on that.

[Nicholas Kang]

My problem? My school problem? Law problem?

[ajb]

My problem? My school problem? Law problem?

It is a statement of fact that the law may not always be fair on the individual. You need to consider the wider benefits of rules. As Ophiolite has said, law is about the regulation of a society for the overall benefit of that society, fairness to the individual is generally less of an issue. It is a nice perk when a particular law is fair on the individual.

 

You can replace law in the above with school rules or clubhouse rule or anything similar.

[Nicholas Kang]

When too many individuals are not treated fairly by law, then it would be a big problem.

[ajb]

When too many individuals are not treated fairly by law, then it would be a big problem.

Then at some point the law would not necessarily be in the interest of that society. It probably depends on how "unfair" the law is, which can be difficult to quantify.

 

So, that is why in the free world we have elected politicians who can change the law and high courts that can interpret how the law is to be implemented.

[Nicholas Kang]

But it is unlikely to happen in school.

[ajb]

But it is unlikely to happen in school.

I don't know. Maybe if enough students see a real injustice then they could appeal to the board of governors to examine the rule. However, most likely that your rules are not that unfair when examined properly.

[Roamer]

What does law means? Fair? Unfair?

 

 

in short:

 

edit:then laws become fair if either we make them what we believe is fair, or start believing they 're fair.

 

 

 

Students should follow them. In the true world, we have international laws and protocols. Laws have their functions.

 

Lol, no, laws are no more true then school rules are, they 're just of a higher legal order.

 

There are no international laws, only treaties, and, umm, how do protocols fit in here ?

Edited June 14, 2014 by Roamer

[swansont]

There are instances where "zero tolerance" rules in school situations are the result of laziness, or lack of staffing. If someone is defacing school property with a screwdriver, one option is to increase staff presence, but that's not the primary duty of teachers — their time is best spent teaching — and hiring new people is not in the budget. So the decision is made to ban possession of screwdrivers. Simple and easy. Also arguably lazy and unfair, since most students don't deface school property and you might have a legitimate reason to have a screwdriver. But school is a unique situation; the students are not adults, and some level of discipline has to be maintained. So the parents cede some authority to the schools. School includes a mix of the more authoritarian atmosphere of the home.

 

I suspect your attitude will be somewhat different 10+ years from now, when viewing the situation from the other side.

[Nicholas Kang]

I suspect your attitude will be somewhat different 10+ years from now, when viewing the situation from the other side.

 

What do you mean, Dr. swantson? I am premature in thinking?

[swansont]

 

What do you mean, Dr. swantson? I am premature in thinking?

 

You will have a perspective that you don't have now.

[Nicholas Kang]

I still don`t get your idea, Dr.swantson, sorry.

 

What do you mean by I will have a perspective that I don`t have now? You mean I am too young to understand and give comment in this case/context?

[MonDie]

When too many individuals are not treated fairly by law, then it would be a big problem.

Fairness is often self-contradictory.

Examples include: using the same grading standard regardless of Down's syndrome; charging equal money for all types of pills; disallowing boys kissing boys and girls kissing girls; or serving everybody hotdogs regardless of preference.

Edited June 15, 2014 by MonDie

[ajb]

You mean I am too young to understand and give comment in this case/context?

When you are older you may start to see things with a bit more sympathy for the teachers. Especially if you have children yourself you will see things "from the other side of the fence".

Edited June 15, 2014 by ajb

[Nicholas Kang]

I think I should be able to speculate my own future. Yes, I maybe will have children in the future but I am not sure maybe my children would think in the same way with what I think now during his/her age. I will be sympathy of my teachers? No, I don`t think so. You see, I am talking about fundamental law`s prinsip. School rules are law too, just with a limitation on how far/wide the law can be implemented. So, the prinsip of law shouldn`t change no despite where/how wide the range is, as long as it is part of law or it is law.

 

I mean why law in school doesn`t behave in the same manner with laws involving nation issues or national law, and even international laws like the UN Human Right Declare. The Declare state that you must not simply abondon human right. Yes, in this context, I admit that the declare did stop you form bullying people before taking actions but this case is too serious and involve too many people, unlike the school rules which just involve school students. And most importantly the prinsip behind them.

 

School laws

1. Obvious meaning: Warn student not to do wrong behaviors

2. Non-obvious meaning: If someone is violating the law, then punishment will be given

 

Laws-Nationwide, Worldwide

1. Obvious meaning: Punish someone who is wrong.

2. Non-obvious meaning: Warn someone not to repeat mistake

 

UN Human Right`s Declare

1. Obvious meaning: Tells you human right and tells you you must obey it.

2. Non-obvious meaning: If violated, then you will be punished by UN law.

 

It seems that the UN Human Right`s Declare is the same as the school rules but this declare covers a wide range of people, form adults, women, children, slaves, and leaders around the world, there is mix culture and mix geopolitics issues.

 

Nevermind, I can still accept that. So, no arguement on that issue.

 

The most important part is the prohibited items, especially tissues and correction liquid. I don`t agree with this fact. You see, it is very very unfair for most of us to not be allowed to use correction liquids and tissue, especially for the those who need them, like me, (I had bronchitis). I did apply for lettter and is approved but I am still not satisfy with the school administration and feel like unfair for my friends. They don`t have bronchitis but they need it when they have wounds/bleeding, wasing hands, hygienic purposes and wipe their face or parts of body during sweating under the hot sun. Handkerchief comes close in this case but it is not hygienic to use one handkerchief for multi-purpose, like sneeze and wipe blood with the same handkerchief but a pack of tissues is more suitable.

 

Correction liquid? It is unfair to most of us that won`t damage the tables or chairs. I/We have brains, there is no benefits to get form spoiling chairs and tables/vandalism. So, why? I am not crazy and naughty. Why sacrifice the majority while minority are only responsible for that case. And why don`t just do some counselling activities, maybe that could help out and this law would not be implemented.?

[ajb]

I don't think that a school banning correction fluid is in violation of the international human rights laws. Thinking that is shows great disrespect to the intentions of such laws and agreements.

[Nicholas Kang]

I don`t mean school banning correction fluid is violating international human right law. It seems like you had misunderstood my meaning. I just take the UN H.R.law as an example. Banning correction liquid has nothing to do with human right, anyway.

I just mean it is unfair but it doesn`t violate human right. People have the right to band you form using correction liquid but you also have right to simply abandon his/her rules. Now, I am talking about the school rules make no sense and us unfair to most of us(the good and well-behaved students)

[ajb]

People have the right to band you form using correction liquid but you also have right to simply abandon his/her rules.

If you decide not to follow the rules of some group, what ever that group is, then you risk being no longer welcome in the group.

 

 

Now, I am talking about the school rules make no sense and us unfair to most of us(the good and well-behaved students)

The rules you have stated stated do make sense, even if they do seem unfair on individuals. But that is life and often the way rules work.

[Nicholas Kang]

Actually, I haven`t raise this problem in the school yet, so the possibility of getting not welcomed is low, anyway. But no matter what replies have been made, it is still unfair. That is life? Life is unfair, mostly unfair. Often the way rules work? Then rules would be unfair and then why follow rules if so. Anyway, don`t have to worry if I won`t follow rules. I will follow until a stage where I win(this argument).

[ajb]

Rules can be unfair on an individual, and that is life. You have to think of the bigger picture and the school as a whole, including teachers and other staff just as the janitor. It may just be much easier to ban something than try to regulate its use. Unfair on you as a responsible correction fluid user, maybe, but it maybe better for the school as a whole just to ban it.