Do you fear death?

[John Cuthber]

It's well enough known that ecg information etc isn't as good a determination of death as we had previously supposed so this

"Yes he is definitely still alive. It's just that someone observing him with a EEG, REG, etc. would consider him dead."

isn't new and it's certainly not evidence that someone who experiences something while their brain isn't working properly because it's deprived of oxygen has seen the afterlife.

 

"Once again you missed my point. You directly expereience your keyboard right? So if you directly experience yin and yang qi, then you know it exists for the sam reason you know that your keyboard exists."

And you have not noticed that I can dream about a keyboard a hundred feet long. My "experience" of it will be just as real as the experience of Qi.

That's not even half way to evidence, never mind proof.

 

And, by the way, to get electricity to flow, you need a closed loop of some sort.

So, if the current flows from him through the other person, to ground and back to him he needs to have conductive footwear or none.

 

What was that you said about my ignorance of electricity?

Edited June 28, 2014 by John Cuthber

[KenBrace]

It's well enough known that ecg information etc isn't as good a determination of death as we had previously supposed so this

"Yes he is definitely still alive. It's just that someone observing him with a EEG, REG, etc. would consider him dead."

isn't new and it's certainly not evidence that someone who experiences something while their brain isn't working properly because it's deprived of oxygen has seen the afterlife.

 

"Once again you missed my point. You directly expereience your keyboard right? So if you directly experience yin and yang qi, then you know it exists for the sam reason you know that your keyboard exists."

And you have not noticed that I can dream about a keyboard a hundred feet long. My "experience" of it will be just as real as the experience of Qi.

That's not even half way to evidence, never mind proof.

 

And, by the way, to get electricity to flow, you need a closed loop of some sort.

So, if the current flows from him through the other person, to ground and back to him he needs to have conductive footwear or none.

 

What was that you said about my ignorance of electricity?

 

It's not dreaming. It's directly experiencing something while completely alert and awake.

 

And how would you propose that he generate the electricity to start with?

[John Cuthber]

I can close my eyes and imagine a unicorn while I'm completely alert and awake, but I'm not foolish enough to think that makes it real.

I'm glad to see that you agree about the electricity and his bare feet.

 

The obvious answer to your question would be a stun gun, but since you seem keen to insist that such a thing would be impossible because it would be spotted by a metal detector, here are two possibilities.

There's the complicated one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_eel

which proves that you don't need metal to get electricity (were you not aware of that: tell me again about my ignorance concerning electricity?)

 

And, of course there's the easy one. He palms a stun gun from an assistant after he is checked by the detector.

 

Of course, if he provides the detector it's even easier to fake- he just needs a hidden switch.

[KenBrace]

I can close my eyes and imagine a unicorn while I'm completely alert and awake, but I'm not foolish enough to think that makes it real.

I'm glad to see that you agree about the electricity and his bare feet.

 

The obvious answer to your question would be a stun gun, but since you seem keen to insist that such a thing would be impossible because it would be spotted by a metal detector, here are two possibilities.

There's the complicated one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_eel

which proves that you don't need metal to get electricity (were you not aware of that: tell me again about my ignorance concerning electricity?)

 

And, of course there's the easy one. He palms a stun gun from an assistant after he is checked by the detector.

 

Of course, if he provides the detector it's even easier to fake- he just needs a hidden switch.

 

The electric eel has three abdominal pairs of organs that produce electricity: the main organ, the Hunter's organ, and the Sach's organ. These organs make up four-fifths of its body, and are what give the electric eel the ability to generate two types of electric organ discharges: low voltage and high voltage. These organs are made of electrocytes, lined up so a current of ions can flow through them and stacked so each one adds to a potential difference. When the eel locates its prey, the brain sends a signal through the nervous system to the electrocytes. This opens the ion channels, allowing sodium to flow through, reversing the polarity momentarily. By causing a sudden difference in electric potential, it generates an electric current in a manner similar to a battery, in which stacked plates each produce an electrical potential difference. In the electric eel, some 5,000 to 6,000 stacked electroplaques are capable of producing a shock at up to 600 volts and 1 ampere of current (600 watts). It would be extremely unlikely for such a shock to be deadly for an adult human, due to the very short duration of an eel's discharge (<2 ms). Electrocution is due to current flow; the level of current would be fatal in humans depending on the path the current takes through the human body, and the duration of current flow. Heart fibrillation (which is reversible via a heart defibrillator) can take place from electrical currents ranging from 70 to 700 mA and higher, provided the current flows for more than about 30 ms.

 

-Wiki

 

Stun Gun Explanation

This could possibly be a decent rebuttal but when viewing the footage closer and observing the demonstrations I personally don't see how it would be possible. Dr. Nelson was shocked while touching his belly (both Chang's hands were completely away). Also take into consideration that he isn't always "shocking" people. Several times he demonstrated a constant current which showed through continuous involuntary muscle contractions. Also...

 

A stun gun is a popular electric shock device used to immobilize an attacker without causing serious or permanent injury. They can be used as a deterrent to temporarily disable an attacker and provide you with a window of opportunity to escape to safety. Using a stun gun requires you to be within arms length of the attacker. You must touch the person with the stun gun to shock them.

http://www.womenonguard.com/-strse-template/stun-dsh-gun-dsh-info/Page.bok

 

Taking that into consideration I do not see how he could practically have used a stun gun to perform the demonstrations. Watch the video below (short version) and see if it looks like he is using a stun gun.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY5UhN4iyEM

 

(0:40) (0:50) (1:50) - I do not see how he could have pulled off those feats with a stun gun.

Edited June 29, 2014 by KenBrace

[John Cuthber]

Why do you think that quoting the wiki page I cited added to the thread?

 

I was using the phrase "stun gun in a much more general sense- a device designed to give a shock (short lived- or prolonged) to someone.

I accept I could have been more clear about that, but it doesn't detract from the fact that such a device

1) is perfectly possible to create and

2) could have been used.

 

In that video at 0:40 the commentator says the "guinea pig" doesn't feel anything at all (though that's not how he spins it)

A plausible explanation of the shock at 0:50 is that the table/ bed in the background is the other connection and you could obviously hide electrical gear in that - it's not examined in detail so schanning Chang with a metal detector is a red herring there.

 

And again, a simple power supply and switch hidden in a shoe could drive the LED- you don't need a lot of current to get a visible glow- less than a milliamp will do it.

[KenBrace]

Why do you think that quoting the wiki page I cited added to the thread?

 

I was using the phrase "stun gun in a much more general sense- a device designed to give a shock (short lived- or prolonged) to someone.

I accept I could have been more clear about that, but it doesn't detract from the fact that such a device

1) is perfectly possible to create and

2) could have been used.

 

In that video at 0:40 the commentator says the "guinea pig" doesn't feel anything at all (though that's not how he spins it)

A plausible explanation of the shock at 0:50 is that the table/ bed in the background is the other connection and you could obviously hide electrical gear in that - it's not examined in detail so schanning Chang with a metal detector is a red herring there.

 

And again, a simple power supply and switch hidden in a shoe could drive the LED- you don't need a lot of current to get a visible glow- less than a milliamp will do it.

 

I quoted the wiki to show that it's not a reasonable explanation. It's a complicated system specially in electric eels. There's no way a human was randomly born with such a mutation. That's the way it seemed to me at least. I'm not an expert on anatomy and electric eels. Correct me if I'm missing something.

 

He said "Greg is the first guinea pig. But he's uncomfortable about showing anything at all.

 

 

A plausible explanation of the shock at 0:50 is that the table/ bed in the background is the other connection and you could obviously hide electrical gear in that - it's not examined in detail so schanning Chang with a metal detector is a red herring there.

 

I didn't quite understand what you meant there. Were you saying that the shock could have come from the bed/table that Roger was touching? If so I don't really see this as a practical explanation. The guy would have felt the shock coming from the table. You can also see by the way he jolted his arm that it came from where he was touching (the guy's belly). If not could you expound a little?

 

 

And again, a simple power supply and switch hidden in a shoe could drive the LED- you don't need a lot of current to get a visible glow- less than a milliamp will do it.

 

The only problem with this is that Chang wasn't wearing shoes and was checked with a metal detector.

[dimreepr]

 

I quoted the wiki to show that it's not a reasonable explanation. It's a complicated system specially in electric eels. There's no way a human was randomly born with such a mutation. That's the way it seemed to me at least. I'm not an expert on anatomy and electric eels. Correct me if I'm missing something.

 

 

Why not? That’s exactly what happened to the eels.

[KenBrace]

 

 

Why not? That’s exactly what happened to the eels.

 

Yes, but over thousands if not millions of years. Based on my understanding of evolution it isn't possible for a brand new, fully fuctional system to simply mutate within one generation. It takes thousands of generations for such things to evolve.

 

I appreciate your thinking though. If it is possible, it would be a reasonable theory to explain it without yin and yang qi.

Edited June 29, 2014 by KenBrace

[dimreepr]

 

Yes, but over thousands if not millions of years. Based on my understanding of evolution it isn't possible for a brand new, fully fuctional system to simply mutate within one generation. It takes thousands of generations for such things to evolve.

 

I appreciate your thinking though. If it is possible, it would be a reasonable theory to explain it without yin and yang qi.

 

 

 

Please re-read post #17, the original mutation that lead to what we see today in the eels, must have allowed them to generate electricity sufficiently enough to give them an advantage, in one mutation.

[KenBrace]

 

Please re-read post #17, the original mutation that lead to what we see today in the eels, must have allowed them to generate electricity sufficiently enough to give them an advantage, in one mutation.

 

That's something I'd be interested to ask a biologist. From what I understand, sometimes a mutations original benefiet was different and more simple that it's use now. I find it kind of far fetched for such a complex system to have randomly evolved in one mutation. I could be wrong though. I would presume that the original mutation was much more simple served a slightly different purpose than it does today. Over time it would have grown in complexity and taken on new functions and abilities.

Edited June 30, 2014 by KenBrace