Theories on possibilities may have ruined my life

[Tailspin]

Hello everybody.

 

This is my very first post and I warn you now it's going to be unusual.

 

I have always been a very creative and imaginative person, I have ambitions of becoming an author someday maybe even producing my own animated TV shows. I have always regarded creativity as a realm of infinite possibilities, where anyone and everyone can bring something unique into this world.

 

But lately I been feeling very depressed because of two scientific theories.

The first one was introduced to me years ago by my father who has always been very interested in science. He told me that there is a finite limit on the number of books is possible to write. Not because human imagination is limited but because a book is made up of words which are a combination of letters and as there are a finite number of letters in existence then there is a finite number of different possible books that can be written. At least not without making words progressively longer and longer until they ceased to be usable.

 

Let me tell you, this news absolutely devastated me. I gave up on my ambitions, on everything I'd ever believed about creativity and sank into a deep depression.

Eventually I drifted out of it but recently I've had a relapse.

 

The second one is this theory I've heard about which says that there is a finite limitation on the different ways that all matter can be arranged and therefore a finite limitation on the possibilities of absolutely everything. On the events that can happen, lifeforms and people that can exist and anything that an artist can ever create.

Together these theories have left me broken and with a deep feeling of hopelessness.

What I want to know is our these theories true? Have they been proven all this proven? Is there any room for definite or at least reasonable doubt?

 

I know that there is nothing I can do about them, I know that if they are true they will never affect me in my lifetime, I know that if they are true it's still a vast number but those thoughts bring absolutely no comfort to me whatsoever.

I know this isn't this the sort of thing you usually talk about on this kind of website but I've tried talking about it on depression websites and to my therapist and haven't really gotten anywhere.

To me there are only two options, either they are untrue and I can finally put them behind me or they are true and my life is ruined.

Also, please don't tell me just live with it because I can't.

[ajb]

He told me that there is a finite limit on the number of books is possible to write. Not because human imagination is limited but because a book is made up of words which are a combination of letters and as there are a finite number of letters in existence then there is a finite number of different possible books that can be written.

At some point you would run out of materials in the Universe to actually write books, even if we mean some kind of digital storage of the information. But that would be a very big number and so as far as you are concerned it might as well be infinite!

 

The same with creating anything including artworks.

[Ophiolite]

This is my first reply to you and I warn you it is going to be direct.

 

I think you are looking at this from the wrong point of view.

 

I can find despair and hopelessness in even the most positive of situations. If I had just won an Olympic gold medal for the 800m in track and field, think how depressed I would feel knowing I had not won the 100m, 200m and 400m sprints, and that I had no chance of even gaining a podium finish in the Three Day Eventing, or the coxless fours. Oh, the dread!.

 

And if I have a family with a wonderful wife and three amazing children, think of all the great women I have been unable to marry, and the scores, hundreds, millions of delightful sons and daughters I have not had. So sad, so depressing.

 

And if I can only manage to write a dozen best selling books, three of which win the Nobel prize for literature, how utterly pointless that would be, since there are millions of books I have not written and will never write. Endless misery.

 

Well, that point of view is just dumb. Wake up. Embrace the wonder of what we have. Write that first book. Experience the joy of creation. Go to it and stop lounging around in self pity.

[Deepak Kapur]

You should be rather happy that you live in a universe that gives you the opportunity of asking such self-criticising and humbling questions.....

 

Any universe that does not lead to such questions will be like a prison where you are to live by the laws ordained by a dictatorial supreme authority.

 

 

Moreover, remember one thing....

 

If you have infinite creativity and infinte possibilities but you have no aim rather than 'creativity for the sake of creativity', you have no worthwhile aim at all...

 

Your aim should be the happiness of all the life forms in this universe. If that is unattainable, your aim should be the happiness of your friends and your near and dear ones.

 

You MUST remember that if you enter the dungeon of depression, you are not only doing disservice to yourself but to your near and dear ones also.

 

MOREOVER, Be rest assured because KNOWLEDGE IS INFINITE and therefore the possibilities are REALLY INFINITE!!

[Delta1212]

I suppose theoretically there is a limit to the possible books that could be written and configurations of matter and so forth, but I think you are underestimating that limit. "Vast" doesn't begin to cover the possibilities. Talking about the purely technical "this is how many words there are and there are only so many ways to arrange those words" limitation, there is a limit to the possibilities, but humanity will never, ever exhaust them all.

 

If you take 1,000 nouns and 1,000 verbs you could make 1 million two word sentences. Add plurals and you double the number to 2 million. Add past tense and that's 4 million. That's 4 million two word sentences using something like 1% of the English language. If you type at 100 wpm and had it as your full time job to just type those two word sentences and went 8 hours a day, 5 days a week without slowing, it would take 8 months to type out this set of small sentences using this tiny subset of one language.

 

If you add a single adjective to the sentence chosen from a subset of just 1,000 common adjectives, that grows to 4 billion three-word sentences and it would take you 648 years to type them all out. Every added word increases the sentence complexity by a comparable amount and that's using this incredibly stripped down vocabulary. Make use of the full range of possible words and there are more possible sentences in English than will ever be written.

 

And that's just sentences. We're not even talking about stories which can arrange sentences in novel configurations, repeat sentences and basically be any length.

 

Let's take the longest book you've ever read. We could change the ending and make it continue longer if we so chose. Even if you founded an organization that dedicated itself to spending the entirety of the next millennium attempting to working out every possible story that could be told in five sentences or less, you'd still have all the six sentence stories still to tell.

 

For all practical purposes, the number of possible things you can create might as well be infinite. You will never, ever come close to even perceiving where the limit is. It might as well not exist as far as humanity is concerned.

[Tailspin]

I believe I specifically said you work not to tell me how I should live with it. If either of these theories are true there is absolutely no possible way I will ever be happy.

 

Delta1212, what you said is pretty much what my father said to me. He tried to cheer me up by saying that the possibilities was so vast that humanity would go extinct before we exhausted them. This made me feel much worse because the thought of humanity going extinct is another major hangup for me and secondly it's still saying that all creative possibilities are finite and I cannot begin to tell you how unacceptable that is to me.

 

What bothers me is not just that creative possibilities will be exhausted, it is that they can be exhausted. If they are finite and that means whatever I create I will not be creating anything, I'll just be filling out a predetermined possibility.

 

I did not start this thread to hear how I should get over it, I've done that on various other websites already.

I started this thread to find out if the root cause of my depression is real, if these theories are true or not.

 

What I need is a straight answer. Are these theories true or not? Are they widely accepted or generally considered to be unfounded assumptions?

Edited June 23, 2014 by Tailspin

[Ophiolite]

I believe I specifically said you work not to tell me how I should live with it.

Yes you did. But one of the wonders of our universe is that I have the freedom to ignore your request, just as you have the freedom to ignore my excellent advice. The only remaining question is then, which of us is more ignorant?

 

If either of these theories are true there is absolutely no possible way I will ever be happy.

Your obsession with this concern is abnormal and unhealthy. It is quite possible that appropriate treatment by qualified professionals could address your issues and allow you to be happy. (As an aside, why are you so concerned about being happy? Would you not rather be satisfied than happy, for example?)

 

This made me feel much worse because the thought of humanity going extinct is another major hangup for me and secondly it's still saying that all creative possibilities are finite and I cannot begin to tell you how unacceptable that is to me.

Humanity will certainly go extinct, but that is most likely by evolving into one or more new species. I trust you would not find that upsetting.

 

The universe may be infinite - this is unclear. If it is infinite then your worries are groundless.

 

Why is the finite limit on possibilities unacceptable to you?

 

What bothers me is not just that creative possibilities will be exhausted, it is that they can be exhausted. If they are finite and that means whatever I create I will not be creating anything, I'll just be filling out a predetermined possibility.

That is completely illogical and simply wrong. Consider a matrix with four elements. The universe could be finite, or infinite. Everything could be predetermined, or not. Having a finite universe does not impose predetermination, nor does an infinite universe ensure freedom.

 

I did not start this thread to hear how I should get over it, I've done that on various other websites already.

I started this thread to find out if the root cause of my depression is real, if these theories are true or not.

The root cause of your depression is not present in the external universe, but in your internal constitution. I wish you good fortune in fixing that, but it is unlikely to occur as long as you maintain this ....affectation.

[Delta1212]

Anything you will ever do is possible or you could not have done it. That doesn't mean it is a pre-determined possibility in the sense that is usually used.

 

I could, for instance, take my pen and draw a circle on the piece of scrap paper I have on my desk right now. That circle I will draw exists as a possibility. I can picture it quite clearly. But it does not actually exist unless I draw it, and, similarly, if someone else were to draw it, it would not be the same circle I would produce that I am envisioning right now.

 

There are a vast number of creative achievements that can only come into existence if you create them. There is nothing special about, for instance, the Harry Potter books that would prevent me from sitting down and writing those exact same words. I could have done that 20 years ago and made a fortune. It's a straightforward mechanical action. But the reason I didn't comes down to the fact that those books could only come into existence in the exact form that they did if they were written by JK Rowling at the time and in the place that she wrote them.

 

Likewise, if you give into despair, there are great works of art and creative endeavors that may exist in the abstract which will never be given form because the only person who could possibly bring them to fruition is you. They are your works, waiting for you to create them.

[Deepak Kapur]

 

 

Do you think there would be no question left regarding particles?

 

No, the next question would be 'How this most fundamental particle came to exist in the very first place?'

 

To answer this lots of 'creati'g3֠.l҃}vqP <UM

[imatfaal]

tailspin if you want a rather contrived way out of the fact that there seems to be a limited number of books perhaps think on this. English majors with nothing better to do (a hello to my brilliant niece at this point!) will write theses on how the arrangement of blank space, margins, headers&footers, and gutters can affect both the readerly and the authorly impact of written texts. Surely we can all appreciate that Midsummer Nights Dream (not long past now) printed with no white space would be almost unintelligible - whereas printed in standard playscript format it is a delight without compare. The amount of white space is infinite, as is the colour of the type, the forms of layout, and many other things which could/can/do (delete as applicable) affect the text.

 

WE are not about to run out soon

[Deepak Kapur]

 

 

Do you think there would be no question left regarding particles?

 

No, the next question would be 'How this most fundamental particle came to exist in the very first place?'

 

To answer this lots of 'cre\ܗXPu|(_(AqB_;D

sorry for wrong posts, its terrible to reply from mobile.

 

NO, these theories are not right.

 

A simple example....

 

Suppose, humans have found the most fundamental particle.

 

Do you think after this there would be no question left regarding particles?

 

No, the next question would be 'How this most fundamental particle came to exist in the very first place?'

 

To answer this lots of 'creative' theories would be required, lots of experiments would be required and lots of new books would be required.

 

So, the question of origin of anything ( universe, god, matter, energy, etc.) leads to an infinite regress.

 

This infinite regress is the source from which infinte questions, infinite books, infinite fiction, infinite theories and infinite creativity arises.

[Tailspin]

 

NO, these theories are not right.

 

Sir, you may have just given me the answer I've been desperate to get for a long time.

 

Let me see if I understand it, I'm not much of a scientist you see.

 

You're saying that even the most fundamental particle discovered would in itself be made out of smaller particles, and those particles would be out of smaller particles and so on. In this way the universe can generate infinitely new particles and therefore infinitely new possibilities.

 

Do I understand correctly?

[Phi for All]

If either of these theories are true there is absolutely no possible way I will ever be happy.

 

Math doesn't work with theories, math works with proofs. Science doesn't work with proofs, it works with theories.

 

Theories aren't "true", they simply offer the best explanation for various phenomena, and assume there is always an improvement.

 

Neither of these things you've mentioned is a proper scientific theory. They make no meaningful predictions and they don't explain anything.

 

Further, your reasoning in this is irrational. Your statement:

 

I have always regarded creativity as a realm of infinite possibilities, where anyone and everyone can bring something unique into this world.

 

seems to imply that you already know you're part of a larger whole that contributes creatively. "Anyone and everyone" are made up of individuals. Isn't it that collective pool of imaginative processes that lets you regard creativity as infinite? Why then would you think an individual such as yourself, part of the pool, is infinitely creative on your own?

 

It also seems irrational to assume that because creativity is finite, it can't create uniqueness.

 

And finally, with our lifespans, the possibilities for creativity might as well be infinite. You could never exhaust the possibilities in this universe in your lifetime, even if you were to have a creative thought every second of every day.

[Deepak Kapur]

Yes, you have just realised that there is no end to possibilities in the universe.

[Phi for All]

Sir, you may have just given me the answer I've been desperate to get for a long time.

 

Let me see if I understand it, I'm not much of a scientist you see.

 

You're saying that even the most fundamental particle discovered would in itself be made out of smaller particles, and those particles would be out of smaller particles and so on. In this way the universe can generate infinitely new particles and therefore infinitely new possibilities.

 

Do I understand correctly?

 

No. Fundamental means primary. Nothing smaller.

 

Perhaps you should investigate wave-particle duality. This might give you the infinite possibilities you hang your happiness on.

[Tailspin]

As I said I don't know as mutch about science as you do. Do you think you could summerise it?

[Sensei]

If either of these theories are true there is absolutely no possible way I will ever be happy.

What on Earth has quantity of possible ways of mixing words, with somebody happiness?

 

Your problem is depression, not quantity of possible ways of mixing elementary particles, words, or letters.

 

Do you tried taking medicine with Hypericum perforatum?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypericum_perforatum

 

The first one was introduced to me years ago by my father who has always been very interested in science. He told me that there is a finite limit on the number of books is possible to write. Not because human imagination is limited but because a book is made up of words which are a combination of letters and as there are a finite number of letters in existence then there is a finite number of different possible books that can be written. At least not without making words progressively longer and longer until they ceased to be usable.

That's correct. Book with finite number of pages, with finite size of font, will have finite quantity of ways words can be arranged.

 

Infinite quantity of stars, infinite quantity of galaxies would lead to no Universe that we know.

 

Read about Olbers' paradox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers%27_paradox

 

Although it's not reason to feel depression.

 

[Tailspin]

What on Earth has quantity of possible ways of mixing words, with somebody happiness?

 

Your problem is depression, not quantity of possible ways of mixing elementary particles, words, or letters.

 

Do you tried taking medicine with Hypericum perforatum?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypericum_perforatum

 

That's correct. Book with finite number of pages, with finite size of font, will have finite quantity of ways words can be arranged.

 

Infinite quantity of stars, infinite quantity of galaxies would lead to no Universe that we know.

 

Read about Olbers' paradox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olbers%27_paradox

 

Although it's not reason to feel depression.

 

The reason I am depressed is because I live for creativity and these two theories have completely destroyed it for me. And I believe it makes perfect sense to get depressed about these things.

 

As a matter of fact I have tried Prozac in the past but it didn't work and it had unwanted side-effects.

 

The reason I have difficulty talking to people about it is because first I have to explain it to them in detail which is painful. And afterwards they either don't understand how the theory works which means I have to explain it again which is painful and frustrating or they simply don't get why it depresses me so I have to explain that which is also painful and frustrating.

 

Frankly I can't imagine how anybody could not be bothered by these two theories.

[Deepak Kapur]

@ tailspin

 

Dear, just remember one thing......

 

Our questions are NOT GOING TO END. It means the possibilities are REALLY INFINITE.

 

Fundamental particles ALSO REQUIRE EXPLANATION......and......just keep in mind that questions regarding such explanations are going to increase for ever with the advancement of humankind.

[Phi for All]

As I said I don't know as mutch about science as you do. Do you think you could summerise it?

 

Elementary particles show the behavior of particles, but they also act like waves. The photons in a beam of light are both a stream of elementary particles AND a field of waves. In order to measure a particular particle, you start with the assumption that it could be anywhere in the universe, because there is a nonzero probability of this being the case.

 

And just like your elusive creativity, once you measure the particle (or write the story, sculpt the bust, paint the picture, invent the invention), you fix it in place.

[Sensei]

Frankly I can't imagine how anybody could not be bothered by these two theories.

 

That's problem with depressed persons - bother about things that are meaningless for healthy persons.

[Delta1212]

You do realize that whether there are infinite possibilities has nothing to do with whether anything you create is coming from some "predetermined set of possibilities" right?

 

For example, there are an infinite number of integers. Any number you can come up with, you can add 1 to and get a new number.

 

That new number, however, didn't pop into existence when you added 1 to the previous number. It always was, and always will be, the number that comes after that number. Every number that anyone has ever worked with and ever will work with, including any numbers that will only crop up one time in a single instance of human history, have always been those numbers with the same relationship to all other numbers. You can't come up with a "new" number, and yet there are an infinite number of possible numbers.

 

Similarly, anything you do, even in a universe of infinitely possible creativity, anything you create is something that could, hypothetically, be created. There are an infinite number of possibilities in the set, but those possibilities are no more or less real than the possibilities in the finite set of creative possibilities.

 

You are being no more or less creative regardless of whether there is finite or infinite possibility. It literally makes absolutely no difference to anything whatsoever in either practical or even theoretical terms.

[Phi for All]

Frankly I can't imagine how anybody could not be bothered by these two theories.

 

Observation: You've been told these aren't theories. You continue to refer to them as such.

 

Conclusion: It's very important for you to think of the concepts your father told you as official, mainstream, accepted scientific facts, for an unknown reason.

 

The reason I am depressed is because I live for creativity and these two theories have completely destroyed it for me. And I believe it makes perfect sense to get depressed about these things.

 

Let's have a big helping of perspective here. No matter what you "live for", being depressed that it's not available in infinite quantities is contrary to the purpose of "living for" something.

 

Creating uniqueness is valuable because it's finite. If it were infinite, would it have as much impact? Further, being depressed is anathema to the creative process. You're taking one of the greatest things about creativity, it's ability to make something new, and using that against yourself.

 

 

 

 

Have you realized yet that time, the temporal dimension, makes everything unique? The same exact idea someone had ten years ago is completely different now in context. You could take the same idea from ten seconds ago and it may be shaped differently by what happened in the seconds in between. Everything that's happened since t=0 has been unique in this regard.

[sunshaker]

Tailspin I thought you said you are "creative", You should now then that Mankinds creativeness is infinite, I think in ways and possibilities I would not know how to start writing them down in"words".

 

Perhaps that creative "caveman" sat there and thought what next after i have drawn everything?, Mans creativeness found "words",

But a time will come when a "book" will not just be words, A book will evolve into a new form which will involve all our senses touch,sight, sound, smell, taste, and ones we are yet unaware of.

 

So yes it is all infinite, At least in the creativeness of humankind.

 

And while there is any kind of life left to read or write a book there will always be a new "Biography" to read/write.

Edited June 23, 2014 by sunshaker

[Tailspin]

 

 

You are being no more or less creative regardless of whether there is finite or infinite possibility. It literally makes absolutely no difference to anything whatsoever in either practical or even theoretical terms.

 

It makes a huge difference to me.

 

Again this forum was intened only to talk about the theorys themselves, I only mentioned how depresed I was so that you'd see how seroius I was.

 

And to answer an erlyer question, the reson I took these theorys so seriously is becuase my father is very scientificly minded and he believes them with out a flicker of duobt.

 

I'm thinking it was a mistake to post my question the way I did becuase I'm not feeling a lot of sympathy or respect.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Tailspin