What if there are no aliens and ET?

[Phi for All]

Finally, our true and final frontier is to extend outside of our planet but we are still stuck in this jail which is our solar system. Escaping may never ever be possible.

 

I agree with the mission. We know our planet has a finite lifespan. We know only one planet where abundant life is found. Life uses energy more efficiently than non-life, it's a better system. The only way to insure that life has a chance to spread is to take it offplanet, allow it to grow. Whether we find other life, even other intelligent life, needs to be a factor but shouldn't stop us from expanding.

 

I don't agree with the prison analogy. Prison implies a warden, or some outside agency or force that is purposely and actively restricting our access to certain privileges. Ours is more a problem of ignorance. We just haven't figured out enough of the variables involved in the astonishingly complicated and staggeringly expensive process of traveling in space, not enough to overcome the risks.

 

An island is only a prison if someone is stopping you from building a boat.

 

We'll get experience and knowledge from poking around our own system, using resources we find in space to improve our infrastructure in space. If this doesn't attract some attention from another starfaring species, we can at least assume a) there's nothing near enough or intelligent enough to observe us, b) we don't understand enough about non-human intelligence as a concept to make any meaningful predictions, or c) we're not doing anything interesting enough to warrant a response.

[Nicholas Kang]

Intelligence can create a reason where none existed before.

 

The reason is always there. And we are there to find it.

Alone in a cold and uncaring universe; a blank slate for humanity - fit for us to record our most noble deeds or to boast of our most iniquitous felonies.

 

I hope that we are not alone for the simplest reason; I would like to meet someone completely different. I don't remember my first day at school, but I remember the shock of my first day at university and even more so the first day I was actually paid to do a job. The shattering of a worldview is an amazing and liberating experience - and every sentient lifeform on earth would receive that jolt at the same time, that "reset from start", that out-of-context problem which arises when one's whole perspective is changed immeasurably, irreversibly, and unexpectedly.

 

How do you relate your points with this topic?

 

Well, to be fair, even organisms that are close to us (i.e. those found on Earth) are quite alien and different if you look into them. In fact, biology has delivered us more varied and alien lifestyles than Hollywood. I would be curious to know whether extraterrestrial life could be any weirder than what we already have...

 

Yes and no. Good to be curious about ETs. Are you a member of SETI@home? No because most probably we (you and I) won`t differ too far. We are the same-we are human. My respiration rate, breathing rate, number of organs(ignoring operations and organ donations), will be more or less the same. Just your face is different than mine, maybe more handsome than mine.

I think in a similar context, on another thread, I've already mentioned my wife.

 

You detest your wife? (i am just asking without any intentions, don`t misunderstand )

I've been lurking these forums for months but decided to register for this odd thread..

 

 

Since the first broadcasts of FM radio in the 30s and the first satellite TV broadcasts in the 60s, we have continuously showered the skies with our existence, ever increasing volume and power. A developed life-form as far as a few hundred light years away should be able to at the very least pick up on our chatter. They would need a massive array and fine equipment to make it audible but the signals should let them know that another intelligent life form exists.

 

We should also be ready for an uncomfortable discovery which we could make with certainty one day, that we may very well be one of a kind. If that were the case, we really do have an incredible mission to grow beyond our planet for the sake of preserving our intelligent life in and of itself.

 

Finally, our true and final frontier is to extend outside of our planet but we are still stuck in this jail which is our solar system. Escaping may never ever be possible.

 

I can almost imagine a situation where out there in space, there is a galaxy somewhere with multiple intelligent life forms that can communicate with each ther yet are forever incapable of meeting as they cannot leave their solar systems.

 

I've been lurking these forums for months but decided to register for this odd thread..

 

 

Since the first broadcasts of FM radio in the 30s and the first satellite TV broadcasts in the 60s, we have continuously showered the skies with our existence, ever increasing volume and power. A developed life-form as far as a few hundred light years away should be able to at the very least pick up on our chatter. They would need a massive array and fine equipment to make it audible but the signals should let them know that another intelligent life form exists.

 

We should also be ready for an uncomfortable discovery which we could make with certainty one day, that we may very well be one of a kind. If that were the case, we really do have an incredible mission to grow beyond our planet for the sake of preserving our intelligent life in and of itself.

 

Finally, our true and final frontier is to extend outside of our planet but we are still stuck in this jail which is our solar system. Escaping may never ever be possible.

 

I can almost imagine a situation where out there in space, there is a galaxy somewhere with multiple intelligent life forms that can communicate with each ther yet are forever incapable of meeting as they cannot leave their solar systems.

 

Do you think being an odd person is good or bad? Say in this topic. (I think it is not so good)

 

Why should the discovery be uncomfortable? Don`t you happy and elated if we can meet new friends(at least not invading aliens)?

 

Jail? My point would be we should explore our jail first before heading too far(interplanetary exploration before interstellar/intergalactic/intercluster/intersupercluster

explorations) And don`t forget our home planet. We haven`t fully explore her yet.

 

I don`t think "forever incapable of meeting as they cannot leave their solar systems" is possible. As technology improve, I think faster-than-light flying is possible.

 

Maybe the time taken will be longer.

[Ophiolite]

 

You detest your wife? (i am just asking without any intentions, don`t misunderstand )

I was employing humour. There is a long tradition, at least in British comedy, to make jokes about ones wife.

 

"I take my wife everywhere. Unfortunately she always find her way back."

"My wife and I enjoyed twenty five years ......and then we met."

"Some people are very poor cooks. Take my wife. No, seriously, take my wife."

 

I predict that, if and when we meet ET, the success of our communications and relationships will depend upon whether or not ET also has a sense of humour. (There is an excellent short story that uses that theme to explore the risks inherent in First Contact. Anyone recall it?)

[Nicholas Kang]

I think you like humour a lot, Ophiolite. Too much humour in your live, Mr Ophiolite. Relationships and communications will first depend on the way you talk seriously. not humour, in my opinion. You don`t expect an alien on earth will first smile and joke with you or talking with humour upon first arrival, do you?

[Phi for All]

I think you like humour a lot, Ophiolite. Too much humour in your live, Mr Ophiolite. Relationships and communications will first depend on the way you talk seriously. not humour, in my opinion. You don`t expect an alien on earth will first smile and joke with you or talking with humour upon first arrival, do you?

 

Many great explorers got their start trying to find some time away from nagging wives. There may be a shared bond there to exploit.

 

Alien: "Take me to your leader".

Ophiolite: "She's having tea with her sisters, you'll have to wait".

 

(Both nod sagely and then start laughing)

[Nicholas Kang]

I think you are just speculating, Phi for All. You haven`t meet an alien, it is hardly possible to extrapolate their character by simply treating them as human. I mean thinking of alien behaves like human.

[Ophiolite]

I think you like humour a lot, Ophiolite. Too much humour in your live, Mr Ophiolite.

I would be interested, in a new thread, to hear your argument for it being possible to have too much humour. Well developed humour is one of the more important features that distinguish homo sapiens form the rest of the animal kingdom. (I say this in the hope that three members will immediately post references to peer reviewed research illustrating the existence of humour in animals. Certainly chimps have it.)

 

Relationships and communications will first depend on the way you talk seriously. not humour, in my opinion.

Only by not taking ourselves - and aliens we meet - seriously, can we fully appreciate how serious the matter is.

 

 

You don`t expect an alien on earth will first smile and joke with you or talking with humour upon first arrival, do you?

I have no expectations. They are aliens. By definition they will be different. That doesn't stop me having hope. If they have a sense of humour I think we have a better chance of understanding and cooperating than if they don't have a sense of humour.

[Phi for All]

I have no expectations. They are aliens. By definition they will be different. That doesn't stop me having hope. If they have a sense of humour I think we have a better chance of understanding and cooperating than if they don't have a sense of humour.

 

One would hope humor (or the more silly and ribald humour) matures with the species, so that a species capable of traveling to meet us would have a sophisticated sense of funny. It might be best to leave the joy-buzzer on the ship before shaking hands with the President.

[Ophiolite]

 

One would hope humor (or the more silly and ribald humour) matures with the species, so that a species capable of traveling to meet us would have a sophisticated sense of funny. It might be best to leave the joy-buzzer on the ship before shaking hands with the President.

Come now! Anyone who still has a President has a great sense or irony, if not of humour.

[Moontanman]

 

I see where you're coming from with this, but when we're talking about alien life the way the OP does it's usually intelligent life, at least intelligent enough to leave some evidence of their existence we can detect from Earth. Intelligent enough to leave their home planet is usually part of the definition of alien/ET.

 

I can't think of a combination of inheritable traits a species could have that would allow them to evolve the ability to survive travel off-planet without including intelligence. Microorganisms could travel without intention, but how else would a species leave this world for another without a fairly high intelligence?

 

Would you consider it possible that non intelligent organisms like social insects could attain technology?

 

I've been lurking these forums for months but decided to register for this odd thread..

 

 

Since the first broadcasts of FM radio in the 30s and the first satellite TV broadcasts in the 60s, we have continuously showered the skies with our existence, ever increasing volume and power. A developed life-form as far as a few hundred light years away should be able to at the very least pick up on our chatter. They would need a massive array and fine equipment to make it audible but the signals should let them know that another intelligent life form exists.

 

We should also be ready for an uncomfortable discovery which we could make with certainty one day, that we may very well be one of a kind. If that were the case, we really do have an incredible mission to grow beyond our planet for the sake of preserving our intelligent life in and of itself.

 

Finally, our true and final frontier is to extend outside of our planet but we are still stuck in this jail which is our solar system. Escaping may never ever be possible.

 

I can almost imagine a situation where out there in space, there is a galaxy somewhere with multiple intelligent life forms that can communicate with each ther yet are forever incapable of meeting as they cannot leave their solar systems.

 

 

The idea that our radio and or TV broad casts are detectable at a distance related to how long we have been broad casting is unlikely. Interstellar gas and dust would absorb our signal leakage well before it reached the nearest star...

If we knew for sure that there were no aliens, we'd have fewer stories of abductions and anal probes.

 

 

Some how I doubt it...

[fiveworlds]

What if aliens didn`t exist? We continue to search for ETs but what if they don`t exist at all, and we are the first one to emerge?

 

 

Then we put a cat on mars and call it an alien. Well technically the cat's kittens but it would have to have them on mars. Therefore the kittens aren't from earth and are aliens.

Edited July 29, 2014 by fiveworlds

[Phi for All]

Would you consider it possible that non intelligent organisms like social insects could attain technology?

 

What an interesting question!

 

If intelligence isn't driving the progress towards a kind of technology social insects could use, it wouldn't necessarily be like any tool-use-based tech we've ever seen. Perhaps some kind of organic approach, like specialized workers that can eat cellulose and then manipulate regurgitated matter into a useful item, sort of like an insectoid 3-D printer? We see shelters built like this by social insects, so I suppose it's possible it could be used to somehow make something that could move the species offplanet.

 

High intelligence gives us high curiosity, which is one aspect leading us to explore our system. I'm having a hard time imagining another kind of selective pressure that would lead a species off its homeworld if it didn't have a high curiosity. Dwindling resources makes all us critters pack up and move, but moving offplanet seems like a step not covered in my study of evolution.

[sunshaker]

 

What an interesting question!

 

If intelligence isn't driving the progress towards a kind of technology social insects could use, it wouldn't necessarily be like any tool-use-based tech we've ever seen. Perhaps some kind of organic approach, like specialized workers that can eat cellulose and then manipulate regurgitated matter into a useful item, sort of like an insectoid 3-D printer? We see shelters built like this by social insects, so I suppose it's possible it could be used to somehow make something that could move the species offplanet.

 

High intelligence gives us high curiosity, which is one aspect leading us to explore our system. I'm having a hard time imagining another kind of selective pressure that would lead a species off its homeworld if it didn't have a high curiosity. Dwindling resources makes all us critters pack up and move, but moving offplanet seems like a step not covered in my study of evolution.

Perhaps the life form would be similar to the goa'uld in "stargate" that would take a humanoid host.

 

Or a virus that takes control, Perhaps it has already happened and a virus took control of a primative ape, And we are that ape,

Perhaps Why it takes humans a long time to reach maturity, To give time for the virus to full become aware.

[Ten oz]

Would you consider it possible that non intelligent organisms like social insects could attain technology?

 

In my opinion intelligence is not something we can easily define in a way that allows it to broadly apply throughout the universe. Finding life similar to our own would be easiest but we have no way of calculating if it would be the most likely. As to your question about insects attaining technology; they do problem solve and many colony insects build structures. Is a Beehive a technology achievement? What about honey. Is honey proof or a form of insect agriculture/farming?

 

"University of Sydney have shown that the humble ant is not only capable of solving difficult mathematical problems, but is even able to do what few computer algorithms can - adapt the optimal solution to fit a changing problem."

http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=6165

[sunshaker]

 

"University of Sydney have shown that the humble ant is not only capable of solving difficult mathematical problems, but is even able to do what few computer algorithms can - adapt the optimal solution to fit a changing problem."

http://sydney.edu.au/news/84.html?newsstoryid=6165

Ant taxi drivers would be great, Always taking the shortest route, Woundn't that be a first.

[Ten oz]

High intelligence gives us high curiosity, which is one aspect leading us to explore our system. I'm having a hard time imagining another kind of selective pressure that would lead a species off its homeworld if it didn't have a high curiosity. Dwindling resources makes all us critters pack up and move, but moving offplanet seems like a step not covered in my study of evolution.

High intelligence give us high curiosity? Very interesting statement. The more I think about it the less clear I become that high, intelligence, or curiosity really even exist outside of human perception.

Did high levels of curiosity drive the first amphibious creatures to evolve? Surely dry land was foriegn to those creatures as space may seem to us? A fish out of water dies. They can't breathe air and even if they could navigating would not be possible. Yet they left the ocean all ths same. Developed lungs and muscles to manipulate their fins.

It may sound like science fiction but much like fish left the ocean could life naturally evolve to leave a planet? Perhaps if the planet had a ring of resource rich material? Like birds driving under the water for fish or like seals who evolved thick fat deposits to handle the cold could life on another planet have evolved to burst out into orbit to collect ferrous metals or what not then return back to their planet?

Perhaps these questions seem silly. Your post just got me thinking for a moment.

Edited July 29, 2014 by Ten oz

[Phi for All]

Did high levels of curiosity drive the first amphibious creatures to evolve? Surely dry land was foriegn to those creatures as space may seem to us? A fish out of water dies. They can't breathe air and even if they could navigating would not be possible. Yet they left the ocean all ths same. Developed lungs and muscles to manipulate their fins.

 

Since they weren't highly intelligent (by human standards), I don't think they would have a high level of curiosity, either. Adaptations like that are probably short forays onto land to grab food near the water's edge. Those with a little extra muscle or tougher fins became more successful at making the grab, passing those traits along. Enough generations later, the amphibian can stay on land longer and longer.

 

It may sound like science fiction but much like fish left the ocean could life naturally evolve to leave a planet? Perhaps if the planet had a ring of resource rich material? Like birds driving under the water for fish or like seals who evolved thick fat deposits to handle the cold could life on another planet have evolved to burst out into orbit to collect ferrous metals or what not then return back to their planet?

Perhaps these questions seem silly. Your post just got me thinking for a moment.

 

Evolution doesn't stop working if you leave a planet's environment, but I can't think of what kind of pressure would allow a non-technological movement off a species' homeworld. What's drawing them away, resources? How do they know there are resources offplanet?

 

If a species is intelligent enough to conclude that their sun may threaten their existence eventually, it's easy to see what would drive them to leave. A parasitic species may find a host but only one that could also move offplanet.

 

Is there a species of bird that's currently learning to fly higher and higher, needs less oxygen, and might someday develop a method of propulsion that doesn't rely on displacing air with its wings? Thinking like this makes it difficult to imagine a world where non-intelligent life might adapt to space. I know they don't have to look like ducks, but it's hard not to think that way. [/anthropomorphizing]

[Moontanman]

I think you are just speculating, Phi for All. You haven`t meet an alien, it is hardly possible to extrapolate their character by simply treating them as human. I mean thinking of alien behaves like human.

 

 

How would you identify an alien if you met one?

[Ten oz]

Since they weren't highly intelligent (by human standards), I don't think they would have a high level of curiosity, either. Adaptations like that are probably short forays onto land to grab food near the water's edge. Those with a little extra muscle or tougher fins became more successful at making the grab, passing those traits along. Enough generations later, the amphibian can stay on land longer and longer.

 

So there only needs to be a benefit to an action. Intelligence and curiosity are not necessary for exploration or rather dramatically expanding ones habitat?

 

 

Evolution doesn't stop working if you leave a planet's environment, but I can't think of what kind of pressure would allow a non-technological movement off a species' homeworld. What's drawing them away, resources? How do they know there are resources offplanet?

If a species is intelligent enough to conclude that their sun may threaten their existence eventually, it's easy to see what would drive them to leave. A parasitic species may find a host but only one that could also move offplanet.

Is there a species of bird that's currently learning to fly higher and higher, needs less oxygen, and might someday develop a method of propulsion that doesn't rely on displacing air with its wings? Thinking like this makes it difficult to imagine a world where non-intelligent life might adapt to space. I know they don't have to look like ducks, but it's hard not to think that way. [/anthropomorphizing]

That I am aware of there are no birds which fly higher and higher. All life on earth has evolved per earth's characteristics though. Another planet may have useful chemicals or mineral in its upper atomesohere that provides life there a reason to fly ever higher?

 

What if another planet had life but then lost it atomesohere. Life there then survived moving underground. Like fish once took short forays on to land to grab resources this underground life may have done the same. Short forays above ground subjected to no atomesohere conditions. Could they have then evolved the ability to move off world? If there planet had moons and large debris rings containing resources.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Ten oz

[Phi for All]

So there only needs to be a benefit to an action. Intelligence and curiosity are not necessary for exploration or rather dramatically expanding ones habitat?

I mentioned intelligence and curiosity because those attributes, coupled with our tool-making abilities, allows us to adapt to environments we'd otherwise find hostile. Certainly hunger is a stronger driver for exploration than curiosity is for most creatures.

 

That I am aware of there are no birds which fly higher and higher. All life on earth has evolved per earth's characteristics though. Another planet may have useful chemicals or mineral in its upper atomesohere that provides life there a reason to fly ever higher?

 

What if another planet had life but then lost it atomesohere. Life there then survived moving underground. Like fish once took short forays on to land to grab resources this underground life may have done the same. Short forays above ground subjected to no atomesohere conditions. Could they have then evolved the ability to move off world? If there planet had moons and large debris rings containing resources.

 

 

This seems like a plausible way to develop a way to survive without an atmosphere.

[Moontanman]

I mentioned intelligence and curiosity because those attributes, coupled with our tool-making abilities, allows us to adapt to environments we'd otherwise find hostile. Certainly hunger is a stronger driver for exploration than curiosity is for most creatures.

 

 

This seems like a plausible way to develop a way to survive without an atmosphere.

 

 

Europa could be a test case for this.

[sunshaker]

Perhaps if the planet had a ring of resource rich material? Like birds driving under the water for fish or like seals who evolved thick fat deposits to handle the cold could life on another planet have evolved to burst out into orbit to collect ferrous metals or what not then return back to their planet?

Perhaps these questions seem silly. Your post just got me thinking for a moment.

Read this about dust particles, Perhaps a planet with a rich ring resource would be an ideal nursery for this possible type of life form.

 

Particles of inorganic dust can become organised into helical structures. These structures can then interact with each other in ways that are usually associated with organic compounds and life itself.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070814150630.htm

 

From plasma crystals and helical structures towards inorganic living matter

http://iopscience.iop.org/1367-2630/9/8/263/fulltext/

[radicalsymmetry]

What if the aliens are massive schools of cosmic jelly-fish that are each bigger than out own moon and feed on humans like whales eat plankton... Would you like to say hello ?

[Phi for All]

What if the aliens are massive schools of cosmic jelly-fish that are each bigger than out own moon and feed on humans like whales eat plankton... Would you like to say hello ?

 

By all means, let's let fear of this stop us from exploring altogether.

 

On the other hand, are they tasty? Hellooooo, lunch!

 

Can we harvest them for the enormous energy they must have? Are they intelligent enough where we could teach them that eating humans is too pricey? Could they provide protection from radiation so we could travel with them?

[Nicholas Kang]

Only by not taking ourselves - and aliens we meet - seriously, can we fully appreciate how serious the matter is.

 

How is it possible that you can take yourself and the alien not seriously before appreciating how serious the matter is?

 

this sounds like contradicting the ordinary way. We must be serious first when first in contact with the matter, then as it progresses, we slowly add some sense of humour.

 

and most probably your aren`t an alien, so what you think and I think aren`t similar as an alien`s thought, because we haven`t meet them, see them or simply detect their existences.

How would you identify an alien if you met one?

 

How would I know if there is an alien? No one have detected it.