Fred Champion Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Otherwise admit there are religions that work magic, telepathy, fortune telling, without need for a deity to be involved. Note the "usually" part, and also the "we" part. .. Are they representative of the typical religious person? .. how prevalent is that, and does it include the other examples from the OP ... whether those phenomena get the religious stamp of approval. Barfbag, we are trying to have a discussion involving religion with people who equate religion with theism. It isn't going to be productive. I think they will never accept that religion does not require belief in God. It seems that when they say "religion" they actually mean Christianity and they just dismiss all the other belief systems as not real religions. They seem committed to putting down every idea from every religious source. They seem to feel such a need quite strongly. My experience is when people try to eradicate any idea they have some agenda beyond just hating that one idea. They must be very unhappy people. I wish I could present something that would give them some way to escape their unhappiness.
iNow Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Barfbag, we are trying to have a discussion involving religion with people who equate religion with theism. It isn't going to be productive. I think they will never accept that religion does not require belief in God. It seems that when they say "religion" they actually mean Christianity and they just dismiss all the other belief systems as not real religions. They seem committed to putting down every idea from every religious source. They seem to feel such a need quite strongly.Rubbish. Buddhism is clearly a religion without a god and practically everyone here acknowledges and concedes that without hesitation. You are free to suggest that this is about dismissal of anything non-Christian or the need to put down all religious ideas, but if you'd prefer you conclusion to be accurate then you should instead recognize the broader point. The point is that some religions (typically of the Abrahamic variety like Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) are far more common and representative of the general population of the globe, even though some areas offer examples of exception, and that contributors here at this site tend to reside in areas where Christianity is almost entirely dominant. You raise a valid point in that all posters should think beyond their local ideas of religion, but you then proceed to completely ruin that point by turning it into a string of accusatory strawmen laden with unnecessary barbs and generalizations about the membership. Perhaps focus a little more on ensuring accuracy and a little less on furthering the us/them mentality and perhaps your position will earn some sorely lacking credibility. 1
barfbag Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) I think they will never accept that religion does not require belief in God. It seems that when they say "religion" they actually mean Christianity and they just dismiss all the other belief systems as not real religions. Apparently.. Wikipedia classifies it as a religion and it is my own religion. I found the "law of attraction" movement to have merits (in my opinion) and then discovered Wicca had the same beliefs but more advanced visualization/affirmation processes. Okay so now according to SwansonT, Wicca does not qualify as a religion. The Wiccans use magick would be a counterexample if there were lots of Wiccans about. Are there? Are they representative of the typical religious person? Wicca accepts ALL religions, and their concept of god is that it (I could say he/she/universe/all that is) is all encompassing and a part of everything. A "God knows every sparrow that falls in the forest, because god is every sparrow that falls" type thing. I think Wicca is more of a true religion than Christianity/Catholics/Muslim. The reason so much of the world is Catholic as opposed to Wicca is because The Catholics had centuries of murdering anyone who did not believe as them. - First the Catholics acquired leadership of Rome which had previously taken over the vast Egyptian and Greek empires. They did this through forgery. They forged a document from a sickly emperor to acquire Rome. See -"Forgery of Constantine". - Once they held the Greatest Army in the world they began taking over Countries systematically. History does not consider them world conquerors like Napoleon or Alexander the Great, but they took as much land. - They took over Germany and said to the King... Make your people catholic or die... - They took over France Same thing... Note: Have you ever seen a common army slogan "Kill them all and let god sort them out" This common quote comes from an emissary from the Vatican. The town before them was mixed with Catholics and Christians (Cathars). The ENTIRE TOWN WORSHIPPED JESUS but that was not enough. They needed to be paying into the Catholic coffers. The soldiers wanted to know how they would know the Catholics from the Christians, and were told roughly to Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. ("Kill them. For the Lord knows those that are His own."), and that is where the saying on the patch above came from. Citing wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric In todays terms that would be like your local Catholic Church walking down the street and Murdering a United Church that was 1/4 Catholics in it. They purposefully killed their own. When the Catholics took Jerusalem they killed Man, Woman, and Child. When the Muslims captured it a decade later they at least spared the lives of the Women and Children. (i'm not a Muslim lover either, just noting). Even today the Headquarters of the Catholic church is its own country. So my religion does not have its own country as a headquarters but it is still popular. Law of Attraction is also a religion although many do not think of it that way, but if anyone considers how it supposedly operates then they must consider more. I think it is funny to see a Catholic who thinks Muslims are murderous when much larger amounts of spilled baby blood (there cannot be enough emphasis on the fact Women and Children were slain en masse by the Catholics) came from the Catholics. Imagine it was your family being slaughtered by this "religion" (I consider it an army more than a valid religion myself). Would you be happy to see it enjoy the popularity it does today. I think the concepts of it are equally ridiculous. Heaven,Hell, pearly gates, etc. So I am of the position that the Wiccan Religion was mostly scorched from the Earth and if The Catholics had never acquired Rome through Forgery we might see a lot more Wiccans than we do. @ Inow, Buddhism is clearly a religion without a god and practically everyone here acknowledges and concedes that without hesitation. Fine. Then it appears we have an example we can use then as my religion does not seem to make the cut. Does Buddhism not promote the concept of reincarnation where our spirits are reborn time and again on this planet? Is not the idea of life after death or spirits supernatural? WHAT CAN BE MORE SUPERNATURAL THAN BEING BORN TIME AND AGAIN INTO DIFFERENT BODIES? What about Karma? That is a popular part of Buddhist belief. If there is no deity then how is that supposed to operate exactly without some sort of mass consciousness or telepathy interactions? Just pondering those two well known concepts should be enough however I'll go on (I enjoy Religion, and I learn in process also). That is just the tip of it though. They have much more detailed, documented, and ingrained beliefs about it. Meditation is strongly ingrained in Buddhism culture and I am sure this is common knowledge although it is also practiced in Hindu and other religions. It is known to promote "A feeling of oneness with the universe.". Yao Zhihua writes:[13] (Now for Zen/Tantric aspects of Buddism) In their view, the Buddha is equipped with the following supernatural qualities: transcendence (lokottara), lack of defilements, all of his utterances preaching his teaching, expounding all his teachings in a single utterance, all of his sayings being true, his physical body being limitless, his power (prabhāva) being limitless, the length of his life being limitless, never tiring of enlightening sentient beings and awakening pure faith in them, having no sleep or dreams, no pause in answering a question, and always in meditation (samādhi). [NOTE: Bolds added for emphasis above] from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood How do you really know something? You can read a thousand word essay on apples and know nothing, but bite into one and you know. http://williamjames.com/Folklore/ASTRAL.htm Allusions to astral projection are particularly prominent in the scripts of Tantric Buddhism, a subdivision of Mahayana Buddhism found in Tibet and parts of Mongolia. Such experiences are considered to be a mark of his devotion to the Buddha. Pure Land Buddhism in China is a tradition which not only admits to NDEs, but is philosophically grounded upon their reality and accessibility to all people. The particular notion of astral projection can be traced back to Pythagoras' claim to hear the music of the heavens. The Pythagoreans assumed that the distances of the heavenly bodies from the earth somehow corresponded to musical intervals. By allowing one's consciousness, uplifted by philosophy, to rise through these astral spheres one ultimately might attain to union with the divine. NOTE BELOW: The reference to deities in this religion. Similar to Hindu. It's important to understand that these deities are not "believed in" as external spirits to be worshiped. Rather, they are archetypes representing the tantric practitioner's own deepest nature. Yogi Ramacharaka: - It is possible for a person to project his astral body, or travel in his astral body, to any point within the limits of the earth's attraction, and the trained occultist may do so at will, under the proper conditions. Others may occasionally take such trips (without knowing just how they do it, and having afterwards, the remembrance of a particular and very vivid dream); in fact many of us do take such trips, when the physical body is wrapped in sleep, and one often gains much information in this way, upon subjects in which he is interested, by holding astral communication with others http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhism/D%20-%20Chinese%20Mahayana%20Buddhism/Authors/Hsing%20Yun/On%20Magic%20and%20the%20Supernatural/The%20Buddhist%20Perspective%20on%20Magic%20and%20Supernatural.htm B. Magic through Meditation Magical power can be obtained through meditation practices. Like the Arhats, during cultivation they can attain power through the four Dhyana states and eight mental concentration levels. They can understand the worldly phenomena and know the past and future lives. Okay. The whole concept of Reincarnation should be enough to Satisfy INOW. We do not yet know if SwansonT will accept Buddhism as a religion qualified for this discussion. However... I have mentioned similarities between Buddhism and Hindu (My second favorite religion). So this wikipedia article should be somewhat conclusive that they both accept supernatural magic/ESP/fortune telling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhis (maybe read that wikipedia page in full, but I will provide some quotes.) Siddhis[note 1] are what practitioners believe to be spiritual, magical, paranormal, or supernatural powers acquired through sadhana (spiritual practices), such as meditation and yoga.[1] People who have attained this state are formally known as siddhas.[2] This term (Siddhis) is used in Hindu and Buddhism. In Tamil the word Siddhar/Chitthar refers to someone who has attained the Siddhic powers & knowledge. Five siddhis of yoga and meditationIn the Bhagavata Purana, the five siddhis of yoga and meditation are: tri-kāla-jñatvam: knowing the past, present and future advandvam: tolerance of heat, cold and other dualities para citta ādi abhijñatā: knowing the minds of others and so on agni arka ambu viṣa ādīnām pratiṣṭambhaḥ: checking the influence of fire, sun, water, poison, and so on aparājayah: remaining unconquered by others[9] tri-kāla-jñatvam: knowing the past, present and future . - This could mean they believe they can see the future. I think that fits as fortune telling, one of the requirements Swansont has said might ("enlighten me") enlighten him if found as a precept in a religion. para citta ādi abhijñatā: knowing the minds of others and so on - This could mean ESP/telepathy the second precept SwansonT has asked for. Lord Krishna describes the ten secondary siddhis as: anūrmi-mattvam: Being undisturbed by hunger, thirst, and other bodily appetites dūra-śravaṇa: Hearing things far away dūra-darśanam: Seeing things far away manaḥ-javah: Moving the body wherever thought goes (teleportation/astral projection) kāma-rūpam: Assuming any form desired para-kāya praveśanam: Entering the bodies of others sva-chanda mṛtyuh: Dying when one desires devānām saha krīḍā anudarśanam: Witnessing and participating in the pastimes of the gods yathā sańkalpa saḿsiddhiḥ: Perfect accomplishment of one's determination ājñā apratihatā gatiḥ: Orders or commands being unimpeded [10] So "Lord Krishna" (Their version of Pope/deity) claims entering the body of others, assuming any form, teleporting, and remote viewing are possible. These are also PSI topics, and might be considered supernatural (by my definition anyways). In Conclusion: I think my last post on the Wiccan religion was enough to meet the requirements of this thread, but it was not considered common enough to warrant consideration. Inow was kind enough to suggest Buddhism as a fine example so I have used that religion to show they had beliefs in meditation and mind over matter, telepathy, ESP, fortune telling, teleportation, remote viewing, and more. I have shown similar beliefs in Hinduism. So what reasons are these now unfit as religions for this thread? @ Swanson T, "Enlighten me" - Swansont from earlier post. Are you enlightened yet? That is three religions two major ones, plus one that might have been major had the Catholics not had so many Crusades and Inquisitions, that profess supernatural beliefs. Edited July 23, 2014 by barfbag
iNow Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Okay so now according to SwansonT, Wicca does not qualify as a religion.Try again. As the text which you even quoted clearly indicates, he asked if Wicca is representative of the typical religious person. That is no equal to asserting "Wicca does not qualify as a religion." @ Inow, Fine. Then it appears we have an example we can use then as my religion does not seem to make the cut. Does Buddhism not promote the concept of reincarnation where our spirits are reborn time and again on this planet? Is not the idea of life after death or spirits supernatural? WHAT CAN BE MORE SUPERNATURAL THAN BEING BORN TIME AND AGAIN INTO DIFFERENT BODIES? What about Karma? This is tangential to thread topic which assumes a priori that beliefs in the paranormal and religious practice so often overlap and then goes on the inquire why that might be. I have no interest in chasing your red herrings or other logical fallacies, especially since basic reading comprehension and good faith approach to discussion seem to elude you so often.
swansont Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Okay so now according to SwansonT, Wicca does not qualify as a religion. Where the hell did I claim that? Are you enlightened yet? That is three religions two major ones, plus one that might have been major had the Catholics not had so many Crusades and Inquisitions, that profess supernatural beliefs. Maybe at some point, if you're not too winded from your rant, you could address what I actually wrote and not some straw-man version of it.
barfbag Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) @ Swansont, The Wiccans use magick would be a counterexample if there were lots of Wiccans about. Are there? Are they representative of the typical religious person? You certainly infer in this statement that my religion does not have enough followers to be considered a typical religion. I agree though, you did not say it was not a religion. You just say it is too small to be typical if I interpret the above statement correctly. Are you enlightened yet? That is three religions two major ones, plus one that might have been major had the Catholics not had so many Crusades and Inquisitions, that profess supernatural beliefs - Barfbag . Maybe at some point, if you're not too winded from your rant, you could address what I actually wrote and not some straw-man version of it. Your exact words were, What religions are based on ESP or fortune-telling? Enlighten me. (adding bold to "Enlighten me" to show you said it.) Okay. So it was not meant to offend. You clearly noted the Wiccan religion was not typical enough to warrant consideration in this thread so I brought in several more typical religions. You also had said "enlighten me" if that was reference in second quote of your last post. Youre indignation is noted, and I will apologize for misconstruing the concept of invalidating my religion by typical size, with denying it is a religion. There. Now can you address whether Buddhism or Hindu supernatural beliefs fit your notion of typical, and are you ("Enlighten me") enlightened now? You said, What religions are based on ESP or fortune-telling? I have shown both Buddha and Hindu (and Wiccan) have these concepts at their core. Edited July 23, 2014 by barfbag
Ten oz Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 @ Barfbag and Fred Champion, what does torturing the definition of religion have to do with the OP's question? Asking why "we usually associate" broadly acknowledges the generality of the question. There is not an absolute statement being made. In general terms most people would accept the definition of religion as any belief structure of an unobserved nature that links humans to an unknown or supernatural world/existence beyond our bodily senses. By that definition believing in ghosts alone isn't a religious act unless there is a belief structure behind. Simply believing you saw a ghost and having no held beliefs one way or another about how it was possible would make a person superstitious in my book. That isn't what the question in this thread is asking though. 1
barfbag Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) @ Ten Oz, I was addressing a question from SwansonT, where he said, What religions are based on ESP or fortune-telling? If at least several (there is more) major religions have supernatural acts such as Reincarnation, Karma, Remote Viewing, Out of Body experiences, ESP, Fortune Telling, Teleportation, etc. , then it would be natural to assume Paranormal topics like those can be associated with religion. believing in ghosts alone isn't a religious act unless there is a belief structure behind. Simply believing you saw a ghost and having no held beliefs one way or another about how it was possible would make a person superstitious in my book. I have used Wiccan, Buddhist, and Hindu religions as examples. These all have belief structures and millions of followers. Roughly a billion people are Hindu, and over 350 million Buddhists exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations These religions consist of well known and documented belief structures. I do not see how seeing a ghost can be a valid comparison. "we usually associate" broadly acknowledges the generality of the question. There is not an absolute statement being made. So give us your interpretation of what the OP is asking. To me it seems like demonstrating at least 3 religions so far that have paranormal activities at their core is answering the question. How could you not associate paranormal activities with religion (see Title of thread) if one of those three religions was yours? Even Catholics and Christianity have Prayers and Miracles and Possessions according to them but they have already been ruled out for some reason on this thread. The entire concept of a deity is paranormal according to mainstream science. Edited July 23, 2014 by barfbag
Ten oz Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 @ Barfbag, I gave my interpretation in post #13 when I responded directly to the OP. The OP seems to be removing God from the conversation but then keeping many religious tenets. To your question of how can I not associate paranormal activity with religion; some people are superstitious with no belief or theory behind it. Like being afraid to sleep in a dark bedroom yet acknowledging there is no reason to be.
MonDie Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) @ Barfbag and Fred Champion, what does torturing the definition of religion have to do with the OP's question? Asking why "we usually associate" broadly acknowledges the generality of the question. There is not an absolute statement being made. In general terms most people would accept the definition of religion as any belief structure of an unobserved nature that links humans to an unknown or supernatural world/existence beyond our bodily senses. By that definition believing in ghosts alone isn't a religious act unless there is a belief structure behind. Simply believing you saw a ghost and having no held beliefs one way or another about how it was possible would make a person superstitious in my book. That isn't what the question in this thread is asking though. Religion is often defined poorly, but this link gives some good definitions. http://atheism.about.com/od/religiondefinition/a/definition.htm Regardless, this discussion won't benefit from a definition. We only need to know what the religions are and whether they have supernatural elements. Swansont, So "the Greeks followed the Greek gods" refers to the past, so that's moot. It may be the past, but astrology was incorporated into religions for a long, long time, and it still is today. Astrology was also a big part of medieval Islam, although modern muslims say it is unlawful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology_in_medieval_Islam Astrology can be a religion. It's a central focus for some New Age religion, where it becomes intertwined with karma & reincarnation (book: The Astrology of Reincarnation Volume 2 Part II: The Lunar Nodes, the Lunar Phases, the Prenatal New Moon. Edited to add Many of these same people relate astrology to psychic powers, or even claim to use psychic powers to aid their prognostications, much like tarot readers (book: Intuition: the Key to Divination: Awaken Your Intuitive Powers For Success Astrology, Dreams, Tarot, Numerology, I Ching, Runes). Do astrologers actually believe the Greek gods exist, and follow that religion? http://www.amazon.com/Astrology-Religion-Among-Greeks-Romans/dp/159605896X "[Franz Cumont] discusses... * the origins of astrology in ancient Babylonia * why ancient scientists believed the stars were divine * how astrology influenced Greek and Roman paganism * astrology as the official religion of the Roman Empire * and more... " Edited July 23, 2014 by MonDie
Ten oz Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Religion is often defined poorly, but this link gives some good definitions. http://atheism.about.com/od/religiondefinition/a/definition.htm Regardless, this discussion won't benefit from a definition. We only need to know what the religions are and whether they have supernatural elements. Religion is often defined poorly, but this link gives some good definitions. http://atheism.about.com/od/religiondefinition/a/definition.htm Regardless, this discussion won't benefit from a definition. We only need to know what the religions are and whether they have supernatural elements. In summary your link explains that religion may connect supernatural elements to a cultures history or to a belief system base beyond the natural world. I agree with that. I don't agree with,"We only need to know what the religions are and whether they have supernatural elements". Of course religions have supernatural elements. Doesn't mean that all supernatural things are religious in nature. People accept many things in this world without fully understand them. The average person has no idea how a microchip works yet they accept that microchips do in fact work. Some people believe in supernatural things yet hold no thoughts or beliefs about them. They (supernatural thing) are mysterious as a microchip to them. They go through life without ever giving it an ounce of thought.
barfbag Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) @ Ten Oz, We have associated many PSI concepts are included in various religions. Certainly we cannot use religion to explain acceptance EVERY paranormal topic. Of course religions have supernatural elements. Doesn't mean that all supernatural things are religious in nature. No but we have shown many paranormal beliefs are contained in some religions. This should be reason enough to associate paranormal with religions. It will not explain Spontaneous Human Combustion (if its real) or UFO's. These are paranormal topics. There is too wide a meaning of paranormal to fit every category into religion, but we have covered Telepathy, Collective consciousness, remote viewing, fortune telling, astrology, teleportation, reincarnation, possessions, life after death, pendulums, magick, and more. Is that not enough to at least associate some religions (if not all) with paranormal attributes? If you want it to encompass every single PSI topic ever thought of it won't happen. I know of no religion that accepts the notion of a Genie in a bottle for example. They also might not include Bigfoot, Lochness, Ogopogo, unicorns, fairies, leprechauns, gremlins, or why toast falls buttered side down. Edited July 23, 2014 by barfbag
Ten oz Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 @ Ten Oz, We have associated many PSI concepts are included in various religions. Certainly we cannot use religion to explain acceptance EVERY paranormal topic. No but we have shown many paranormal beliefs are contained in some religions. This should be reason enough to associate paranormal with religions. It will not explain Spontaneous Human Combustion (if its real) or UFO's. These are paranormal topics. There is too wide a meaning of paranormal to fit every category into religion, but we have covered Telepathy, Collective consciousness, remote viewing, fortune telling, astrology, teleportation, reincarnation, possessions, life after death, pendulums, magick, and more. Is that not enough to at least associate some religions (if not all) with paranormal attributes? If you want it to encompass every single PSI topic ever thought of it won't happen. I know of no religion that accepts the notion of a Genie in a bottle for example. I agree that religion will generally be brought up when discussing paranormal concepts.
MonDie Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) [snip] Some people believe in supernatural things yet hold no thoughts or beliefs about them. They (supernatural thing) are mysterious as a microchip to them. They go through life without ever giving it an ounce of thought. You are right. My own impression is that some are oriented toward independent, empirical investigation, whereas others are oriented toward community consensus, relying on trust in their fellow cult members. I'll further conjecture that the former, the empiricists, seem relatively less inclined toward religion, perhaps because they're at least trying to filter fact from fiction. Edited July 23, 2014 by MonDie
Ten oz Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 You are right. My own impression is that some are oriented toward independent, empirical investigation (like barfbag, and like my past-self 2-3 years ago), whereas others are oriented toward community consensus, relying on trust in their fellow cult members. I'll further conjecture that the former, the empiricists, seem relatively less inclined toward religion, perhaps because they're at least trying to filter fact from fiction. Imperical investigating requires a community. Peer reviewed research for example. To much orientation toward independent investigation is a bad thing. We are all bias observers.
MonDie Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Imperical investigating requires a community. Peer reviewed research for example. To much orientation toward independent investigation is a bad thing. We are all bias observers. I'm endorsing neither that approach nor the paranormal. I'm proposing that religion and paranormalism can arise together when a particular approach to knowledge is taken, but that paranormalism can also arise via a second route. I have better things to do than discuss this. Bye! Edited July 23, 2014 by MonDie
Ten oz Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 I'm endorsing neither that approach nor the paranormal. I'm proposing that religion and paranormalism can arise together when a particular approach to knowledge is taken, but that paranormalism can also arise via a second route. I have better things to do than discuss this. Bye! I apologize if my last post seemed antagonizing. It wasn't my intention.
swansont Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Religion is often defined poorly, but this link gives some good definitions. http://atheism.about.com/od/religiondefinition/a/definition.htm Regardless, this discussion won't benefit from a definition. We only need to know what the religions are and whether they have supernatural elements. Swansont, It may be the past, but astrology was incorporated into religions for a long, long time, and it still is today. Astrology was also a big part of medieval Islam, although modern muslims say it is unlawful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology_in_medieval_Islam Astrology can be a religion. It's a central focus for some New Age religion, where it becomes intertwined with karma & reincarnation (book: The Astrology of Reincarnation Volume 2 Part II: The Lunar Nodes, the Lunar Phases, the Prenatal New Moon. Edited to add Many of these same people relate astrology to psychic powers, or even claim to use psychic powers to aid their prognostications, much like tarot readers (book: Intuition: the Key to Divination: Awaken Your Intuitive Powers For Success Astrology, Dreams, Tarot, Numerology, I Ching, Runes). http://www.amazon.com/Astrology-Religion-Among-Greeks-Romans/dp/159605896X "[Franz Cumont] discusses... * the origins of astrology in ancient Babylonia * why ancient scientists believed the stars were divine * how astrology influenced Greek and Roman paganism * astrology as the official religion of the Roman Empire * and more... " Again, my position is that "we" refers to humans today, and not in the past. I don't think there's any question that pre-scientific cultures would observe more supernatural/paranormal phenomena in their lives.
Ten oz Posted July 23, 2014 Posted July 23, 2014 Again, my position is that "we" refers to humans today, and not in the past. I don't think there's any question that pre-scientific cultures would observe more supernatural/paranormal phenomena in their lives. You mean like earthquakes, lightening, eclipses, and tsunamis?
swansont Posted July 24, 2014 Posted July 24, 2014 You mean like earthquakes, lightening, eclipses, and tsunamis? Sure.
Prometheus Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 Does Buddhism not promote the concept of reincarnation where our spirits are reborn time and again on this planet? Is not the idea of life after death or spirits supernatural? WHAT CAN BE MORE SUPERNATURAL THAN BEING BORN TIME AND AGAIN INTO DIFFERENT BODIES? What about Karma? That is a popular part of Buddhist belief. If there is no deity then how is that supposed to operate exactly without some sort of mass consciousness or telepathy interactions? The whole concept of Reincarnation should be enough to Satisfy INOW. We do not yet know if SwansonT will accept Buddhism as a religion qualified for this discussion. Inow was kind enough to suggest Buddhism as a fine example so I have used that religion to show they had beliefs in meditation and mind over matter, telepathy, ESP, fortune telling, teleportation, remote viewing, and more. Just want to clarify some points on Buddhism. Buddhism teaches rebirth not reincarnation, the difference being in rebirth there is no soul, spirit, or any 'self' which leaves one body and enters another. The idea there is no true 'self' is central in Buddhism. Quite what gets reborn is another question and not for here. Karma, doesn't have to have mystical allusions in Buddhism, even though it often does. Buddhists very often do believe in supernatural things, and certainly the Buddha also appeared to. But the Buddha taught that is not what is important in his teachings. I've got limited net access at the moment, but can provide links later if you like.
barfbag Posted July 25, 2014 Posted July 25, 2014 @ Prometheus, Buddhists very often do believe in supernatural things, and certainly the Buddha also appeared to. But the Buddha taught that is not what is important in his teachings. Yes. Fair enough. It is the "Supernatural" topics that are of interest in this thread though. No need for links. I was merely pointing out that several religions have what we might consider "supernatural" beliefs. Nobody has argued it, so I'm guessing the point was made.
petrushka.googol Posted July 25, 2014 Author Posted July 25, 2014 Again, my position is that "we" refers to humans today, and not in the past. I don't think there's any question that pre-scientific cultures would observe more supernatural/paranormal phenomena in their lives. That does not explain why some cultures still practice witchcraft, sorcery and other forms of necromancy which border on the paranormal. eg) voodoo etc.
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