Martian Chemistry (split from sea salt)

[sunshaker]

I've been thinking about potassium and sodium, I thought i would look at mars, Thinking if there was oceans there would be salt plains, From what I can gather there are some salt deposits in the south but not large areas, But Mars contains a large amount of potassium 8% by mass

 

THE COMPOSITION OF MARS

Quote from :http://enviroliteracy.org/article.php/1019.html

 

"Given that the chemistry of potassium is close to that of sodium, what accounts for this difference? While potassium and sodium play similar roles in animal physiology, only potassium is used by plants. Accordingly, much of the potassium that is eroded from rocks by rainwater never makes it to the ocean, because as it filters through soil it is taken up and used by plants".

 

Which leads me to believe life/plants never made it to land on mars, But may still have had large oceans, Which is why there is so much potassium compared to earth.

[Acme]

I've been thinking about potassium and sodium, I thought i would look at mars, ...

You've gone adrift here. Perhaps start a new thread on Mars.

[sunshaker]

You've gone adrift here. Perhaps start a new thread on Mars.

Perhaps a slight drift but I think the question still remains relevant for Mars as well has Earth,

 

As i mentioned in post 8,

 

 

 

"Given that the chemistry of potassium is close to that of sodium, what accounts for this difference? While potassium and sodium play similar roles in animal physiology, only potassium is used by plants. Accordingly, much of the potassium that is eroded from rocks by rainwater never makes it to the ocean, because as it filters through soil it is taken up and used by plants".

 

Which leads me to believe life/plants never made it to land on mars, But may still have had large oceans, Which is why there is so much potassium compared to earth.

Cannot help but notice the distribution of potassium and sodium on mars, If you notice in the northern hemisphere there is a abundance of potassium, This is where they believed was a large ocean, If there was life around this ocean/area I would expect lower amounts of potassium But there is low potassium deposits in the southern hemisphere, The southern hemisphere is where they have found sodium deposits.

 

This leads me to think that plant life may have taken hold in the southern hemisphere around small seas, Which is why there is significantly less potassium (used up by plants) and why there are sodium deposits.

 

From what i can gather most missions have landed in the northern hemisphere, The next mission in 2016 plan to land at the Elysium Planitia which is also in the northern hemisphere.

It seems to me if they are looking for signs of life they should be concentrating on the southern hemisphere where the possibility of the potassium was used up by plant life leaving the sodium deposits.

[Enthalpy]

Potassium doesn't disappear as it's "used up" by plants. Living plants store some and release it when dead.

 

More: from satellites, we know Mars' surface composition only. From the depth, we know very little - the possible presence of frost, through radar mapping.

[John Cuthber]

Why assume that martian plants need potassium?

[sunshaker]

Potassium doesn't disappear as it's "used up" by plants. Living plants store some and release it when dead.

 

 

So even looking at it this way and all the potassium is given back to the soil, It would still be wise to look for life where the highest concentrations of potassium are. I am still unsure myself, But after looking more into potassium/sodium, I now have more belief/ that proof of life will one day be found on mars.

 

Why assume that martian plants need potassium?

I don't, But it works wonders on earth,

I like the idea of silicon lifeforms, Once they get warmed up,

Mars has plenty of silicon, It may have come down to a battle between silicon and potassium for control of cells, Potassium won on earth

You can see below where it is low in silicon it is high in potassium.

[Enthalpy]

Why assume that martian plants need potassium?

 

For the same reason that the drunk man searches his keyring under the streetlight: they aren't more probably there, but he sees better.

 

We have already exobiologists (junior and senior), with their symposiums, and even peer-reviewed papers, before Mankind possesses its first bit of knowledge on the topic. Isn't that wonderful?

[sunshaker]

Once you start looking at Mars , You cannot help but wonder about the other planets, And their relationships to salt sodium/potassium, The first thing I found which I never knew was that the "moon" has a sodium tail, Which stretches for 500,000 miles, Which means the moon is like a salt shaker sprinkling earth, and to a extent Mars,

http://sirius.bu.edu/moontail/

 

Atomic sodium in Earths mesophere, debris from ateroids/Comets.

 

A team of scientists at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., now wants to develop the world's first spaceborne sodium lidar that would illuminate the complex relationship between the chemistry and dynamics of the mesosphere that lies 40-110 miles above Earth's surface — the region where Earth's atmosphere meets the vacuum of space.

Though this relatively small region contains other granules of metals, including iron, magnesium, calcium, and potassium — all produced by the evaporation of extraterrestrial dust when it encounters Earth's atmosphere — sodium is easiest to detect. This dust is part of the so-called Zodiacal Dust Cloud that originates from the debris produced by asteroids and comets.

"There is literally a layer of atomic sodium in the mesosphere,

http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/nasa-advances-worlds-first-spaceborne-sodium-lidar/#.U8rtIuNdUsA

To me it seems there is a relationship between planets/moons, It is like they all play there part within a system/cell.

 

 

Differences in concentration of ions on opposite sides of acellular membrane lead to a voltage called the membrane potential. Typical values of membrane potential are in the range –40 mV to –80 mV. Many ions have a concentration gradient across the membrane, including potassium (K⁺), which is at a high concentration inside and a low concentration outside the membrane. Sodium (Na⁺) and chloride (Cl^–) ions are at high concentrations in the extracellular region, and low concentrations in the intracellular regions. These concentration gradients provide the potential energy to drive the formation of the membrane potential. This voltage is established when the membrane has permeability to one or more ions. In the simplest case, illustrated here, if the membrane is selectively permeable to potassium, these positively charged ions can diffuse down the concentration gradient to the outside of the cell, leaving behind uncompensated negative charges. This separation of charges is what causes the membrane potential. Note that the system as a whole is electro-neutral. The "uncompensated" positive charges outside the cell, and the uncompensated negative charges inside the cell, physically line up on the membrane surface and attract each other across membrane. Thus, the membrane potential is physically located only in the immediate vicinity of the membrane. It is the separation of these charges across the membrane that is the basis of the membrane voltage. Note also that this diagram is only an approximation of the ionic contributions to the membrane potential. Other ions including sodium, chloride, calcium and others play a more minor role, even though they have strong concentration gradients, because they have more limited permeability than potassium. Key: Blue pentagons - sodium ions; Purple squares - potassium ions; Yellow circles - Choloride ions; Orange rectangles - Anions (these arise from a variety of sources including proteins). The large purple structure with an arrow represents a transmembrane potassium channel and the direction of net potassium movement.

 

Is there something greater going on between the planets, using sodium/potassium to communicate between themselves on levels we are yet to understand, As within cellular membranes.

 

Sorry for drift again

 

EDIT:Mercury and to a degree Venus also have "sodium tails", When we understand the roles of sodium/potassium within our solar system, Can only help in the search for other planets and life as sodium is fairly easy to detect..

Edited July 19, 2014 by sunshaker

[John Cuthber]

Do you understand that there is no reason why life on Mars (it it ever existed) would in any way resemble life on Earth?

[sunshaker]

Do you understand that there is no reason why life on Mars (it it ever existed) would in any way resemble life on Earth?

Perhaps life on mars would not resemble Earth life, But Mars as many of the same building blocks and power source(SUN) as Earth, So it would be a good guess that Martian life would resemble earth life,

One of the major differences is that Mars as a richer supply of Iron, Iron is the single most important micronutrient bacteria need to survive.

 

 

Iron bacteria are living organisms that live and grow in soil, surface water, and well water. Since iron is a natural food source, they thrive and quickly reproduce in iron bearing waters to form thousands of gelatinous colonies. They can also create ideal conditions where other organisms like sulfur bacteria can grow.

IRON BACTERIA AT FALL CREEK FALLS

 

So I believe Mars as a good chance of once if not now, Bacteria that resemble Earth bacteria.

How far did life progress on Mars, I am still unsure, But it has all the building blocks, And once would have had the right conditions to give life a foot hold.

 

[John Cuthber]

That's just silly.

OK, Mars has lots of iron.

But it is rather short of the macronutrients, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and so on.

AFAICT the only one it has a reasonable supply of is oxygen.

[sunshaker]

That's just silly.

OK, Mars has lots of iron.

But it is rather short of the macronutrients, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and so on.

AFAICT the only one it has a reasonable supply of is oxygen.

"Excessive Hydrogen", May have caused green house effect on Mars, http://www.hngn.com/articles/18147/20131126/hydrogen-caused-greenhouse-effect-may-have-raised-martian-temperatures-facilitating-liquid-water-on-mars.htm

 

So there was at one time, Most if not all the right macronutrients for life to begin, As the hydrogen was lost to space over time, May have given life a chance to adapt to the new environment, And as you said "why would martian life resemble Earth life?",

 

Perhaps they where Silicon based instead of carbon based.

 

Our understanding of extraterrestrial life is limited to say the least, So when life is eventually found the very idea of that life form may seem "Silly", But never the less true.

[John Cuthber]

Assuming that ET life will be the same as us and need the same micronutirents is what's really silly.

[Ophiolite]

So even looking at it this way and all the potassium is given back to the soil, It would still be wise to look for life where the highest concentrations of potassium are.

No. The highest concentrations of potassium are controlled by the mineral distribution which is controlled by global tectonics and magmatic evolution and subsequent weathering and transportation processes.

 

Mars has plenty of silicon,

 

So does the Earth. Silicon is a major component of all terrestrial planets. Most rocks are composed primarily of silicate minerals. The mantle and crust of terrestrial planets are essentially silicates.

 

It may have come down to a battle between silicon and potassium for control of cells, Potassium won on earth

In what way do you think potassium "controls cells"? In what way do you think silicon could perform a comparable function?

[sunshaker]

No. The highest concentrations of potassium are controlled by the mineral distribution which is controlled by global tectonics and magmatic evolution and subsequent weathering and transportation processes.

 

 

 

On Earth much of the potassium that is eroded from rocks by rainwater never makes it to the ocean, because as it filters through soil it is taken up and used by plants.

Which would lead me to believe if life did get started on Mars, If a believed ocean area was low in potassium but the surrounding land mass was high in potassium could be signs that life once existed around these oceans, Which would mainly be sodium deposits.

 

 

So does the Earth. Silicon is a major component of all terrestrial planets. Most rocks are composed primarily of silicate minerals. The mantle and crust of terrestrial planets are essentially silicates.

But I believe Earth also had enough Carbon, Which seems to be the easier choice for life.

 

 

 

In what way do you think potassium "controls cells"? In what way do you think silicon could perform a comparable function?

Potassium is an Electrolyte, It plays major roles in the function of the body, From cells to bones/heart functions,

Potassium 0.35% of body mass,

98% of the potassium in the body is within cells,

 

So I was thinking if Mars never had the Carbon needed to kick start life, It would perhaps try the next choice which I believe would be Silicon,

And as Carbon is 18% of our body mass, And millions of Carbon atoms form the thousands of molecules in every cell,

Silicon would make up a major percentage of any life form, So would control a lot of the functions that other elements carbon/potassium/hydrogen/oxygen control within us.

 

Perhaps Silicon would use the Salts or the metals maybe Iron.

 

Binary compounds of Silicon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_compounds_of_silicon

[Ophiolite]

 

On Earth much of the potassium that is eroded from rocks by rainwater never makes it to the ocean, because as it filters through soil it is taken up and used by plants.

Please provide a citation that demonstrates that this happens to potassium to a greater extent than it does to other elements. i.e. show research that indicates that, regardless of the mechanism, substantially more potassium is retained terrestrially, than is the case for other common elements. Please explain how this has grown over time, rather than reaching a steady state condition very quickly, in geological terms.

 

 

 

Which would lead me to believe if life did get started on Mars, If a believed ocean area was low in potassium but the surrounding land mass was high in potassium could be signs that life once existed around these oceans, Which would mainly be sodium deposits.

 

 

 

On Earth much of the potassium that is eroded from rocks by rainwater never makes it to the ocean, because as it filters through soil it is taken up and used by plants.

Which would lead me to believe if life did get started on Mars, If a believed ocean area was low in potassium but the surrounding land mass was high in potassium could be signs that life once existed around these oceans, Which would mainly be sodium deposits.

Sodium deposits? Do you understand what the Mars craft are measuring? And why was the potassium on land not carried to the ocean, upon the death of land life?

 

But I believe Earth also had enough Carbon, Which seems to be the easier choice for life.

 

Potassium is an Electrolyte, It plays major roles in the function of the body, From cells to bones/heart functions,

 

98% of the potassium in the body is within cells,

So, your earlier assertion that perhaps potassium and silicon fought for control of the cells was a statement with no real meaning? Silicon does not perform any of the functions performed by silicon.

 

98% of most the elements, apart from oxygen and hydrogen is within cells.

 

 

So I was thinking if Mars never had the Carbon needed to kick start life, It would perhaps try the next choice which I believe would be Silicon,

And as Carbon is 18% of our body mass, And millions of Carbon atoms form the thousands of molecules in every cell,

Silicon would make up a major percentage of any life form, So would control a lot of the functions that other elements carbon/potassium/hydrogen/oxygen control within us.

No. Just as carbon forms the backbone of the molecules of carbon based life, because of its ability to produce complex polymers, silicon would perform this function in silicon based life. Control functions would reside with the atoms attached to the silicon backbone.

 

 

Perhaps Silicon would use the Salts or the metals maybe Iron.

 

Binary compounds of Silicon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_compounds_of_silicon

I really think your speculations would benefit from a better grounding in chemistry, biology and geology.