Israel-Gaza Strip conflict - who is to blame?

[Irbis]

Since about 11 days Israel began bombing Gaza again after being pissed off by shelling of Israel by Hamas. So far the whole operation has resulted with at least 400 Palestinian dead with 48-72% of them being civilians. One Israeli civilian and at least 18 IDF soldiers were killed with 13 of them killed today.

 

Here you can discuss the entire issue, just remember - keep it civil.

[John Cuthber]

" who is to blame?"

Whoever started it; but they have been dead for 4000 years.

 

Unfortunately far too many groups seem to have an interest in carrying it on.

[EdEarl]

I believe the true culprits are long dead. Middle East hatred and strife has endured for millennium. Whoever it was may have had a vital interest driving them, in which case circumstances are to blame. In any case, the only way for it to stop is for everyone to agree to put down their arms and declare peace. Then, everyone must be kind and courteous to everyone else. For this miracle to occur, everyone must forgive, for a single troubled heart might break a fragile peace. Given time, a fragile peace will grow into a respectful peace.

[Ten oz]

This topic is a hornets nest. It is impossible to cut to the heart of the matter without being steered into a multitude of side debates that deal with history, race, and religion. For example: Historically, is the story of the Exodus real? Race, are Israelis an ethnic group? Religion, will Jesus return to Jerusalem? Those are various issues that are involved with the western worlds pro-Israeli stance. A belief that it is their homeland, they are traditional a people, and that god wants them thier.

It gets messier than that though. Even amongst agnostics and atheists there is an understanding that the past is the past. Israelis shouldn't have to get up their homes because of history. Hamas also behaves as a terrorist organization at times and that can not be tolerated. Yet, it is to be expected so what do you do?

People say this has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years but that is not completely accurate. The Zionist movement at the end of WWI empowered by the Britan and the league of nations started the process of placing Jewish people in Palestine. Hilters holocaust put the need and justification for an established Jewish state into hyperdrive and in 1948 Israel was born. The annexIng of the land during that time 1918-1948 is the crux of the fighting as it exists today.

[moth]

I believe the true culprits are long dead. Middle East hatred and strife has endured for millennium. Whoever it was may have had a vital interest driving them, in which case circumstances are to blame. In any case, the only way for it to stop is for everyone to agree to put down their arms and declare peace. Then, everyone must be kind and courteous to everyone else. For this miracle to occur, everyone must forgive, for a single troubled heart might break a fragile peace. Given time, a fragile peace will grow into a respectful peace.

 

Be careful what you say. Too often, people who suggest such things seem to find themselves nailed to "trees".

I wonder if there is any way to remove the "profit oppertunity".

Real estate developers make money building settelments, political parties generate a lot of cash promising vaporware solutions, and of course arms dealers and manufacturers find blood money just as spendable as less shameful sources of cash.

We need arms unfortunately, so it seems like we need to find a line between defense industry and war industry.

[EdEarl]

 

Be careful what you say. Too often, people who suggest such things seem to find themselves nailed to "trees".

I wonder if there is any way to remove the "profit oppertunity".

Real estate developers make money building settelments, political parties generate a lot of cash promising vaporware solutions, and of course arms dealers and manufacturers find blood money just as spendable as less shameful sources of cash.

We need arms unfortunately, so it seems like we need to find a line between defense industry and war industry.

Nailing me to a tree would be a worthless gesture for a ton of work, but I understand. The indigenous people and immigrants will do what they do, regardless of my insignificant opinion.

[moth]

Nailing me to a tree would be a worthless gesture for a ton of work, but I understand. The indigenous people and immigrants will do what they do, regardless of my insignificant opinion.

 

I agree with you, forgiveness, and a realization that we're all in this together seem to me the ideal way to move forward.

It just seems to fail "in practice".

Also sorry, I meant to +1 your earlier post.

[StringJunky]

People say this has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years but that is not completely accurate. The Zionist movement at the end of WWI empowered by the Britan and the league of nations started the process of placing Jewish people in Palestine. Hilters holocaust put the need and justification for an established Jewish state into hyperdrive and in 1948 Israel was born. The annexIng of the land during that time 1918-1948 is the crux of the fighting as it exists today.

I think this too. It was a profound act of arrogance and ignorance imo by the allies to annex part of Palestine from it's indigenous inhabitants.because it was some group of (in practice) foreigners spiritual home.

[DimaMazin]

Israel has supported the Ukrainian terrorists therefore is obliged to eat this own ignorance.

[petrushka.googol]

An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind. - Gandhi

[DimaMazin]

An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind. - Gandhi

Gandhi was a successful politician against the developed civilization. I do not think that he could be a successful politician against terrorists.

[MigL]

While true that Israel was 'founded' after WW2 by the British on Palestinian soil, don't forget that Palestine was founded after WW1 ( along with other middle eastern countries ) on the lands of the broken up Ottomann Empire. As others have already stated trying to go back the several thousand years to find the original cause is futile. If people really want peace they need to forget the past and learn to live together.

 

That being said...

The life expectancy of people living in the Gaza strip means that there are very few people left alive from before Israel annexed their lands, so while it may be their ancestral land it is not their land. I may as well claim most of europe, middle east and north africa since my ancestors were roman.

If the people of Gaza elect Hamas they are responsible for Hamas' policy of extermination of all Israelis. The germans after all, elected Hitler and even though democratically elected, the rest of the world saw no need to support him/them.

The people of Gaza maintain that the Israeli blockade deprives them of basic human rights to food and medicine. Then how did they get the more than 4000 missiles shot at Israel ? Is this not an argument for a stricter blockade ? And why no complaints about the blockade on the Sinai ( Egypt ) side ?

Any country has the right to defend its people. If missiles were raining down on your city you would expect your government to put a stop to it, even if some of their innocents were killed in the process.

Why are the Palistinians not governed by Hamas relatively peaceful ? It seems Hamas is the instigator and are perfectly willing to use their own people as pawns in their battle with Israel.

Proportional response is nonsense. Just because only a few Israelis are dead doesn't mean the response has to avoid killing any mor than a few Palistinians. It is called deterrence for a reason. The consequences of your actions are terrible enough to dissuade you from performing those actions.

 

Israel is far from innocent, but in this case, at least, I feel they are justified. The Palistinians of Gaza need to elect a government that cares enough about the people to want less death and more peace.

[petrushka.googol]

Gandhi was a successful politician against the developed civilization. I do not think that he could be a successful politician against terrorists.

 

Traditional Biblical wisdom says "offer the other cheek...".

 

Or am I being tongue-in-cheek (pun intended)

[Irbis]

Hamas' stated goal is the destruction of Israel. They use religious rhetorics to back their claims (and they have strong arguments from their scriptures) so no matter what Israelis do, they won't stop. No amount of appeasement and no amount of money poured into Gaza will resolve that conflict. It will only make it worse as Hamas will use that money to buy more weapons and train more terrorisrs.

[DimaMazin]

Hamas' stated goal is the destruction of Israel. They use religious rhetorics to back their claims (and they have strong arguments from their scriptures) so no matter what Israelis do, they won't stop. No amount of appeasement and no amount of money poured into Gaza will resolve that conflict. It will only make it worse as Hamas will use that money to buy more weapons and train more terrorisrs.

Any financing of idlers is a crime. The overestimated price of hydrocarbons promotes it.

[Ten oz]

Hamas' stated goal is the destruction of Israel. They use religious rhetorics to back their claims (and they have strong arguments from their scriptures) so no matter what Israelis do, they won't stop. No amount of appeasement and no amount of money poured into Gaza will resolve that conflict. It will only make it worse as Hamas will use that money to buy more weapons and train more terrorisrs.

 

Stated goals regarding wars are almost always empty rhetoric. The United States, my home, has stated goals of ending terrorism via the war on terror and ending drugs via the war on drugs. Neither war seems to have even slightly diminished there targets. Stated goals are just campiagn slogans.

 

To say "no matter what Israelis do" absolves Israel of any responsibility. While I agree Hamas are terrorists and many of it's members would rather die than find any resolution; I also believe that the stronger and more powerful force in any conflict generally has the greatest ability of ending that conflict. Israel has the greater military, economy, and world wide support. Israel more successfully kills and maintains their position. Absolving Israel of any role in peace places the full burden on the much weaker, less educated, less organized, and less capable party.

 

It is also important to remember all Palestinians aren't Hamas members. Like everywhere else in the world people are born into thier societies.

[iNow]

Israel-Gaza Strip conflict - who is to blame?

Obama, obviously.

[DimaMazin]

 

It is also important to remember all Palestinians aren't Hamas members. Like everywhere else in the world people are born into thier societies.

It's important to remember Hamas successfully exists in Palestinian environment.

And my opinion about USA can't be important for you if Russian rockets fly to USA.

[EdEarl]

It seems likely that Climate Change will make things worse between Israel and its foes.

[petrushka.googol]

It seems likely that Climate Change will make things worse between Israel and its foes.

 

Are we alluding to the Chaos effect ?

[iNow]

Are we alluding to the Chaos effect ?

Ed can speak for himself, but I'm gonna go ahead and say, No.

 

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/MENAEXT/0,,contentMDK:21596766~pagePK:146736~piPK:146830~theSitePK:256299,00.html

The Middle East and North Africa (MENA) region is particularly vulnerable to climate change. It is one of the world’s most water-scarce and dry regions; with a high dependency on climate-sensitive agriculture and a large share of its population and economic activity in flood-prone urban coastal zones.

<...>

According to the latest IPCC assessment, the climate is predicted to become even hotter and drier in most of the MENA region. Higher temperatures and reduced precipitation will increase the occurrence of droughts, an effect that is already materializing in the Maghreb. It is further estimated that an additional 80–100 million people will be exposed by 2025 to water stress, which is likely to result in increased pressure on groundwater resources, which are currently being extracted in most areas beyond the aquifers’ recharge potential. In addition, agriculture yields, especially in rainfed areas, are expected to fluctuate more widely, ultimately falling to a significantly lower long-term average. In urban areas in North Africa, a temperature increase of 1-3 degrees could expose 6–25 million people to coastal flooding. In addition, heat waves, an increased “heat island effect,” water scarcity, decreasing water quality, worsening air quality, and ground ozone formation are likely to affect public health, and more generally lead to challenging living conditions.

 

Global models predict sea levels rising from about 0.1 to 0.3 meters by the year 2050, and from about 0.1 to 0.9 meters by 2100. For MENA, the social, economic, and ecological impacts are expected to be relatively higher compared to the rest of the world. Low-lying coastal areas in Tunisia, Qatar, Libya, UAE, Kuwait, and particularly Egypt are at particular risk.

[EdEarl]

Ed can speak for himself, but I'm gonna go ahead and say, No.

iNow did a very good follow up on my statement. Israel is desalinating water for itself. Others in the area depend on traditional, limited sources of water, which may make survival difficult for many. Desperate people may resort to violence.

[DimaMazin]

iNow did a very good follow up on my statement. Israel is desalinating water for itself. Others in the area depend on traditional, limited sources of water, which may make survival difficult for many. Desperate people may resort to violence.

Excessive reproduction of a population causes natural regulation of the population.Water desalination for Palestinians will just increase quantity of desperate people by the reproduction.

 

Traditional Biblical wisdom says "offer the other cheek...".

 

How should the wisdom work with Palestinian rockets?

Edited July 22, 2014 by DimaMazin

[Irbis]

West Bank is slowly beginning to boil again.

 

The Jewish State must abide by one rule - no concessions at all, no matter what and not a single step back. Only through force can this war be won.

 

The more I observe this conflict, the more convinced I become of the necessity of implementing corrective measures in order to alter demographic structure of the State of Israel in favor of the Jewish Nation. During the implementation of the aforementioned measures all legal and moral obligations vis a vis the Palestinian population should be suspended.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Irbis

[sunshaker]

Israel will not stop until there is no Palestine they do not want peace they want all of Palestine , Who gave Briton and her allies the right to give the Jews part of Palestine to create their own country called Israel,

 

The Jewish money men/bankers financed the wars 1/2 and this "LAND" was their reward, This land was stolen from those already living there, and a slow extermination as been going on ever since of the Palestinians.

 

You can see which side has the money, and the backing of USA/UK. If my land was given away by a foreign country I would be a "terrorist" and I believe most here would also..

 

Look at the troubles between England/Ireland and the Ira, whoever you are or where ever you are from, you will fight to the death even against overwhelming odds against "invaders".

 

We should redefine who are the real terrorists in this conflict, I would have expected more of the Jewish people, now committing these atrocities after what they went through themselves,