Israel-Gaza Strip conflict - who is to blame?

[billiards]

Israel are responsible for their actions. Hamas are responsible for their actions.

 

Forget all the rhetoric. Look at the situation. In Israel I see pictures of people running in the street with a loud siren going off in the background ** not good **. In Gaza I see pictures of children's blood soaked clothes, lying still in a mass of rubble, the clothes are covering flesh remains of a disassembled body ** terrible **.

 

It is clear that the real crisis is in Gaza. Who is responsible for that? Israel.

[Ten oz]

Israel will not stop until there is no Palestine they do not want peace they want all of Palestine , Who gave Briton and her allies the right to give the Jews part of Palestine to create their own country called Israel,

 

The Jewish money men/bankers financed the wars 1/2 and this "LAND" was their reward, This land was stolen from those already living there, and a slow extermination as been going on ever since of the Palestinians.

 

You can see which side has the money, and the backing of USA/UK. If my land was given away by a foreign country I would be a "terrorist" and I believe most here would also..

 

Look at the troubles between England/Ireland and the Ira, whoever you are or where ever you are from, you will fight to the death even against overwhelming odds against "invaders".

 

We should redefine who are the real terrorists in this conflict, I would have expected more of the Jewish people, now committing these atrocities after what they went through themselves,

 

Israel knows they can never fully be beyond this issue. Hamas is founded by other countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egyt, etc. It doesn't matter how many Palestinians Israel kills more will come. Imagine if in your Englad/Ireland example the IRA was financed by France, Germany, Norway, Denmark, and Iceland.

 

*Founded by should read Funded by.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Ten oz

[imatfaal]

West Bank is slowly beginning to boil again.

 

The Jewish State must abide by one rule - no concessions at all, no matter what and not a single step back. Only through force can this war be won.

 

The more I observe this conflict, the more convinced I become of the necessity of implementing corrective measures in order to alter demographic structure of the State of Israel in favor of the Jewish Nation. During the implementation of the aforementioned measures all legal and moral obligations vis a vis the Palestinian population should be suspended.

 

Can I ask you to clarify - is the above a call for genocide? It reads as if it is.

 

It is distressing in the extreme that a literate and cogent poster such as yourself feels that the solution to any problem is the withdrawal of human rights from a sizeable population. Quite apart from the moral repugnancy of a declaration that an entire people are untermensch and seemingly not worthy of the same considerations as the remainder of humanity; has nothing been learnt from the years of fighting and the failure to find solutions in the barrel of the gun? I have travelled widely in the Levant and North Africa, and worked for both Arabian and Egyptian companies both in London and Alex - that part of the world and its glorious diversity of peoples and faiths is by no means a distant abstraction to me as it is to many commentator. Yet I am broadly sympathetic to the Israeli cause - it is that contradiction that is crucial to a critical and balanced understanding of the problem. I find it unnerving and worrying that so many people of the world have strict and unbending views on both sides of this matter based on such a tiny amount of knowledge gleaned from the monstrosity that we call the press. European Christians side with Israel because of a perverted desire to see Islam humbled, Qatari Muslims bank-roll terror in order to destabilize the Jewish state, etc.

 

The suggestion that any permanent resolution exists which does not rely on compromise from both sides is misguided at best, and, in the case in point (in calling for cessation of the rights of the Palestinian people), it is barbaric.

[Irbis]

I will not comment on the nature of the remarks in my previous post. I will leave it up to other posters to figure out what I meant.

 

No mutual agreement can be reached in this conflict. In 2005 Israel withdrew all troops and settlers from GAza Strip - and what happened? Nothing good, they only got more missiles fired by Hamas. The blockade of Gaza was implemented in 2007 as a response to terrorist attacks on Israeli soil. Palestinians can still travel abroad, just not to Israel. Also, in total about 2 million Palestinians live either in West Bank or in Israel proper and they are in no hurry to leave that place. People vote with their feet so if they were really as oppressed as they claim, we would see waves upon waves of Arabs leaving for Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan or whatever just to not live in Israel - which is not happening. The only Palestinians living in the neighbooring countries are descendants of refugees from late 1940s, not recent migrants.

 

If Israel can't undertake steps to shift the demographic structure of Gaza, they should give it to Egypt. People of Gaza are Egyptians (the so called "Palestinian nation" is an invention of Soviet secret services, created for political purposes during the cold wawr) so if they are annexed by Egypt, they will no longer have an argument of being oppressed by the evil Zionist Entity. Moreover, every missile fired on Israel would be treated as a declaration of war so the Egyptian authorities would be under heavy pressure to end this sh1t.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Irbis

[Ten oz]

I will not comment on the nature of the remarks in my previous post. I will leave it up to other posters to figure out what I meant.

 

Why would anyone other than you be responsible to explain what you meant? Only you know the full motivation and context of your own posts.

 

No mutual agreement can be reached in this conflict. In 2005 Israel withdrew all troops and settlers from GAza Strip - and what happened? Nothing good, they only got more missiles fired by Hamas. The blockade of Gaza was implemented in 2007 as a response to terrorist attacks on Israeli soil. Palestinians can still travel abroad, just not to Israel. Also, in total about 2 million Palestinians live either in West Bank or in Israel proper and they are in no hurry to leave that place. People vote with their feet so if they were really as oppressed as they claim, we would see waves upon waves of Arabs leaving for Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan or whatever just to not live in Israel - which is not happening. The only Palestinians living in the neighbooring countries are descendants of refugees from late 1940s, not recent migrants.

 

Egyt and Syria have been in civil wars last few years. Not sure that would be a move worth making if the goal is to improve ones safety.

 

Historically people tend to stay and fight for the place they consider home rather than flee.

 

If Israel can't undertake steps to shift the demographic structure of Gaza, they should give it to Egypt. People of Gaza are Egyptians (the so called "Palestinian nation" is an invention of Soviet secret services, created for political purposes during the cold wawr) so if they are annexed by Egypt, they will no longer have an argument of being oppressed by the evil Zionist Entity. Moreover, every missile fired on Israel would be treated as a declaration of war so the Egyptian authorities would be under heavy pressure to end this sh1t.

 

Egyt and Syria both rumble over the area in the 1800's. When Egyt and Syria figure their internal issues out perhaps they will be part of peace talks.

[DimaMazin]

 

Can I ask you to clarify - is the above a call for genocide? It reads as if it is.

 

It is distressing in the extreme that a literate and cogent poster such as yourself feels that the solution to any problem is the withdrawal of human rights from a sizeable population. Quite apart from the moral repugnancy of a declaration that an entire people are untermensch and seemingly not worthy of the same considerations as the remainder of humanity; has nothing been learnt from the years of fighting and the failure to find solutions in the barrel of the gun? I have travelled widely in the Levant and North Africa, and worked for both Arabian and Egyptian companies both in London and Alex - that part of the world and its glorious diversity of peoples and faiths is by no means a distant abstraction to me as it is to many commentator. Yet I am broadly sympathetic to the Israeli cause - it is that contradiction that is crucial to a critical and balanced understanding of the problem. I find it unnerving and worrying that so many people of the world have strict and unbending views on both sides of this matter based on such a tiny amount of knowledge gleaned from the monstrosity that we call the press. European Christians side with Israel because of a perverted desire to see Islam humbled, Qatari Muslims bank-roll terror in order to destabilize the Jewish state, etc.

 

The suggestion that any permanent resolution exists which does not rely on compromise from both sides is misguided at best, and, in the case in point (in calling for cessation of the rights of the Palestinian people), it is barbaric.

Propagation of religious idiocies is unacceptable. Stop talking about declarative people rights, they exist. Anyone can't really provide the rights for Palestinians because they support terrorists.

Edited July 26, 2014 by DimaMazin

[John Cuthber]

Anyone can't really provide the rights for Palestinians because they support terrorists.

They would contend that their actions (terrorist or not, depending on your point of view) are the only option they have because someone denied them their basic human rights.

[Irbis]

What basic human rights were they denied? So far Gaza & West Bank have 8th highest obesity rate in the world... THE WORLD. What a despicable oppression they must suffer that they started gaining weight because of it <rolls on the ground laughing>.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Irbis

[John Cuthber]

What basic human rights were they denied? So far Gaza & West Bank have 8th highest obesity rate in the world... THE WORLD. What a despicable oppression they must suffer that they started gaining weight because of it <rolls on the ground laughing>.

Wow, you think that food is the only thing that matters!

 

How about freedom to travel, freedom to find work, proper medical care etc?

[Irbis]

What freedom to travel? They can travel abroad, just not to Israel. About medical care, I can't comment on it's state.

 

Look at the whole mess from a different point of view - since the time of the Oslo accords US, EU and various Arab oil sheikhdoms poured billions upon billions of dollars into Gaza. The amount of money was so large that if used properly it would allow Gaza to be the Hong Kong of the Middle East. But instead, Palestinian "activists" filled their bank accounts and used the rest to finance jihad against the Zionist Entity. Why?

Edited July 26, 2014 by Irbis

[DimaMazin]

They would contend that their actions (terrorist or not, depending on your point of view) are the only option they have because someone denied them their basic human rights.

They support Hamas. Hamas successfully protects their rights therefore we shouldn't worry about their basic human rights.

[John Cuthber]

They support Hamas. Hamas successfully protects their rights therefore we shouldn't worry about their basic human rights.

If their circumstances are so bad that voting for Hamas looks like a good idea to them, perhaps we should look at who is enforcing those circumstances with a great big steel and concrete wall.

What freedom to travel? They can travel abroad, just not to Israel. About medical care, I can't comment on it's state.

 

Look at the whole mess from a different point of view - since the time of the Oslo accords US, EU and various Arab oil sheikhdoms poured billions upon billions of dollars into Gaza. The amount of money was so large that if used properly it would allow Gaza to be the Hong Kong of the Middle East. But instead, Palestinian "activists" filled their bank accounts and used the rest to finance jihad against the Zionist Entity. Why?

You may be unable to comment on the situation, but others have for example,

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/article/gaza-chronic-shortages-drugs-and-medical-supplies

and they also comment on the reasons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

http://revivers.wordpress.com/2014/07/23/gazaunderattack-egypt-turns-back-tunisian-plane-loaded-with-medical-supplies-for-gaza/

 

As for the money, presumably for much the same reasons that our "leaders" are all very rich and getting richer at our expense. That's not unique to Gaza and so it's not the same issue.

[DimaMazin]

If their circumstances are so bad that voting for Hamas looks like a good idea to them, perhaps we should look at who is enforcing those circumstances with a great big steel and concrete wall.

 

They live under authority of religious idiocies, it defines that circumstance that they cannot live with each other, therefore they search for enemies.

[imatfaal]

I will not comment on the nature of the remarks in my previous post. I will leave it up to other posters to figure out what I meant.

...

 

That's called soapboxing - the making of points followed by a refusal to discuss or elaborate upon them.

 

So you make wide sweeping comments about removal of legal and moral obligations to a people and then the execution of corrective measured to change population balance - still sounds like genocide to me; but maybe you have another explanation. The fact you refuse to give one makes me believe the post was either ill-considered garbage or barbaric hate-speech.

They support Hamas. Hamas successfully protects their rights therefore we shouldn't worry about their basic human rights.

 

Human rights are meant to be pretty much inalienable - the fact that person A is a murdering rapist, person B a terrorist who plots to blow up a children's hospital, and person C is the head of a forced prostitution syndicate who enjoys torturing his endentured workers does not (or at least should not) denude them of their human rights. Governments find it much easier to be sloppy on enforcement than to be strict - but that does not change the standard.

 

This is why they are called human rights - and why they are not called human contingencies; they are not dependent on doing anything or forbearing from any action, they arise from the recipients being a member of human race.

[John Cuthber]

They live under authority of religious idiocies, it defines that circumstance that they cannot live with each other, therefore they search for enemies.

What?

[DimaMazin]

 

 

 

Human rights are meant to be pretty much inalienable - the fact that person A is a murdering rapist, person B a terrorist who plots to blow up a children's hospital, and person C is the head of a forced prostitution syndicate who enjoys torturing his endentured workers does not (or at least should not) denude them of their human rights. Governments find it much easier to be sloppy on enforcement than to be strict - but that does not change the standard.

 

This is why they are called human rights - and why they are not called human contingencies; they are not dependent on doing anything or forbearing from any action, they arise from the recipients being a member of human race.

Then Israel should do a good physics to kill terrorists without by-effects.Now it is impossible.

[Airbrush]

Hamas is to blame. Hamas launch rockets into Israel from civilian locations, which acts as human shields, then Israel is forced to attack the launching locations. Hamas says it wants to destroy Israel. Israel never said it wants to destroy Palestine.

 

Hamas has built 30 tunnels into Israel that cost about a million dollar each. That means Hamas has spent $30,000,000 on tunnels to attack Israel. Or do you suggest the tunnels are for smuggling food and medical supplies into Gaza?

Israel are responsible for their actions. Hamas are responsible for their actions.

Forget all the rhetoric. Look at the situation. In Israel I see pictures of people running in the street with a loud siren going off in the background ** not good **. In Gaza I see pictures of children's blood soaked clothes, lying still in a mass of rubble, the clothes are covering flesh remains of a disassembled body ** terrible **.

It is clear that the real crisis is in Gaza. Who is responsible for that? Israel.

 

Hamas is responsible because it forces Israel to attack civilian areas by launching rockets FROM those areas. The conflict is as simple as that.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Airbrush

[Ten oz]

Hamas is to blame. Hamas launch rockets into Israel from civilian locations, which acts as human shields, then Israel is forced to attack the launching locations. Hamas says it wants to destroy Israel. Israel never said it wants to destroy Palestine.

 

Hamas has built 30 tunnels into Israel that cost about a million dollar each. That means Hamas has spent $30,000,000 on tunnels to attack Israel. Or do you suggest the tunnels are for smuggling food and medical supplies into Gaza?

 

 

Hamas is responsible because it forces Israel to attack civilian areas by launching rockets FROM those areas. The conflict is as simple as that.

This is a bit of a false dichotomy. The only way to deal with Hamas isn't to kill their "human shields". Neither killing Hamas militants or their human shields has proven effective. Sure, Hamas is bad. Hamas has blood on their hands. Hamas are instigators but does that mean Israel should just keep killing? Does that mean Israel only has one option which time and experience says doesn't work?

 

Regardless of who is at fault . Regardless of how terrible or evil Hamas may be it is Israel who is more powerful. Israel has the superior military and international support. That makes Israel the adults here.

[DimaMazin]

This is a bit of a false dichotomy. The only way to deal with Hamas isn't to kill their "human shields". Neither killing Hamas militants or their human shields has proven effective. Sure, Hamas is bad. Hamas has blood on their hands. Hamas are instigators but does that mean Israel should just keep killing? Does that mean Israel only has one option which time and experience says doesn't work?

 

Regardless of who is at fault . Regardless of how terrible or evil Hamas may be it is Israel who is more powerful. Israel has the superior military and international support. That makes Israel the adults here.

Israel very much appreciates lives of its soldiers. Hamas defines time of war .

[sunshaker]

USA for years have been pumping vast amounts of money into Israel for years, More than any other country, why would this be?

http://www.wrmea.org/congress-and-us-aid-to-israel/494-congress-a-us-aid-to-israel/11203-u-s-aid-to-israel.html

 

Even within this week 620 million for Israels defense budget,

http://jonathanturley.org/2014/07/18/senate-approves-transfer-of-additional-351-million-to-israel-to-fund-its-iron-dome-missile-defense-system/

 

I'll Say no more.

[John Cuthber]

Gaza is so small and densely populated that parctically all of it is a civilian area. Where else could Hamas launch rockets from?
Do you not think that Hamas need food and medical supplies? Do you think they would not use those tunnels to get them?
What I find puzzling is that Israel has not noticed that a tunnel has two ends and they can block one of those ends without having to travel into hostile territory.
As has been pointed out, 30 million isn't a lot of money

Btw have you seen this?

[DimaMazin]

Hamas is to blame. Hamas launch rockets into Israel from civilian locations, which acts as human shields, then Israel is forced to attack the launching locations. Hamas says it wants to destroy Israel. Israel never said it wants to destroy Palestine.

 

Hamas has built 30 tunnels into Israel that cost about a million dollar each. That means Hamas has spent $30,000,000 on tunnels to attack Israel. Or do you suggest the tunnels are for smuggling food and medical supplies into Gaza?

 

Hamas is responsible because it forces Israel to attack civilian areas by launching rockets FROM those areas. The conflict is as simple as that.

What about cost of rockets?

[billiards]

Hamas is to blame. Hamas launch rockets into Israel from civilian locations, which acts as human shields, then Israel is forced to attack the launching locations. Hamas says it wants to destroy Israel. Israel never said it wants to destroy Palestine.

 

Hamas has built 30 tunnels into Israel that cost about a million dollar each. That means Hamas has spent $30,000,000 on tunnels to attack Israel. Or do you suggest the tunnels are for smuggling food and medical supplies into Gaza?

 

 

Hamas is responsible because it forces Israel to attack civilian areas by launching rockets FROM those areas. The conflict is as simple as that.

This is certainly the Israeli stance. Incredible to me that one could absolve themselves of any responsibility by simply blaming their crimes on "the other side".

 

And yes we are talking about crimes. International law states that any "response" must be proportional to the threat -- anything more is a crime.

 

I wouldn't be able to murder your entire family because you had conspired to murder me. If I did that it would be a bit rich of me to blame it on YOU.

[LaurieAG]

Why would anybody think that cutting the grass (while also fertilizing the soil with blood and bone) would lead to anything but another bumper crop of grass that has to be cut?

[DimaMazin]

This is certainly the Israeli stance. Incredible to me that one could absolve themselves of any responsibility by simply blaming their crimes on "the other side".

 

And yes we are talking about crimes. International law states that any "response" must be proportional to the threat -- anything more is a crime.

 

I wouldn't be able to murder your entire family because you had conspired to murder me. If I did that it would be a bit rich of me to blame it on YOU.

If you are right then proportional murder of each other isn't a crime.