Israel-Gaza Strip conflict - who is to blame?

[John Cuthber]

If you are right then proportional murder of each other isn't a crime.

No, it is a collection of "crimes" but sometimes we ignore the normal rules.

It's not considered criminal to shoot the soldiers of an opposing army.

Edited July 28, 2014 by John Cuthber

[DimaMazin]

No, it is a collection of "crimes" but sometimes we ignore the normal rules.

It's not considered criminal to shoot the soldiers of an opposing army.

Is proportional murder lawful relatively of peace people? Show lawful math of the proportionality.

[John Cuthber]

An alternative would be to justify the roughly 25 Palestinians killed for each Israeli?

Does anyone think they are somehow 25 times less valuable?

 

Is that "proportionate"?

[Airbrush]

This is certainly the Israeli stance. Incredible to me that one could absolve themselves of any responsibility by simply blaming their crimes on "the other side".

 

And yes we are talking about crimes. International law states that any "response" must be proportional to the threat -- anything more is a crime.

 

I wouldn't be able to murder your entire family because you had conspired to murder me. If I did that it would be a bit rich of me to blame it on YOU.

 

So now it is a crime to suppress an attacker? The proportionality is established by Hamas by the circumstances. They know very well the best Israel can do is suppress rocket fire, and the only way to do that causes an unproportional number of civilian deaths in Palestine. If Israel knew a better way, they would. They warn the people in the area what is coming, and Hamas tells the people to stay put and die for them.

 

You make it sound like Israel WANTS to kill as many civilians as possible. That is ludicrous! Should Israel make the battle more even by entering Gaza without tanks, for a FAIR fight?

.....The only way to deal with Hamas isn't to kill their "human shields". Neither killing Hamas militants or their human shields has proven effective. Sure, Hamas is bad. Hamas has blood on their hands. Hamas are instigators but does that mean Israel should just keep killing? Does that mean Israel only has one option which time and experience says doesn't work?

 

Regardless of who is at fault . Regardless of how terrible or evil Hamas may be it is Israel who is more powerful. Israel has the superior military and international support. That makes Israel the adults here.

 

Israel are the "adults" here? So Israel should just allow the rockets to fall anywhere inside Israel without responding. Hamas set up this situation and Israel is responding the only way they know how, and Hamas knows this, to minimize casualties to their own soldiers. Any other country will do that.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Airbrush

[Dekan]

Military guidance from the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 20, v. 11 - 17:

 

"When you advance on a city to attack it, make an offer of peace. If the city accepts the offer and opens its gates to you, then all the people in it shall be put to forced labour and shall serve you. If it does not make peace with you but offers battle, you shall besiege it, and the LORD your God will deliver it into your hands. You shall put all its males to the sword, but you may take the women, the dependants and the cattle for yourselves, and plunder everything else in the city. You may enjoy the use of the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God gives you. This is what you shall do to cities at a great distance, as opposed to those which belong to nations near at hand. In the cities of these nations whose land the LORD your God is giving you as a patrimony, you shall not leave any creature alive. You shall annihilate them......"

 

Are Israeli military operations influenced by this text, and don't some Israeli settlers regard Palestine as "near at hand", and part of their "patrimony" ?

[Irbis]

Nope. It is not influencing anything. This is not an open ended passage at all

 

Deuteronomy 20 v.16-17: " However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.""

 

Since there are no Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites alive anymore, these verses do not have any relevance today.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Irbis

[John Cuthber]

This is a slightly absurd subject but the two passages are talking about separate things.

11-17 refer to

"This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby."

 

and, for comparison, here's what to do in the nearby cities (handily identified by the residents at the time)

 

"However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you"

 

And that's clarified by the reason

"Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods,"

So, the Plan is "Wipe out the unbelievers in the nearby cities " but just enslave the women and children in the others and steal their stuff.

 

Nice group of people.

[Dekan]

 

 

Since there are no Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites alive anymore, these verses do not have any relevance today.

You'd make an excellent casuist, with that line of reasoning!

[Ten oz]

Israel are the "adults" here? So Israel should just allow the rockets to fall anywhere inside Israel without responding. Hamas set up this situation and Israel is responding the only way they know how, and Hamas knows this, to minimize casualties to their own soldiers. Any other country will do that.

As I previously posted you are creating a false dichotomy. There is more than one way to respond for bothsides. Saying that Israel is "responding the only way they know how" relieves them of any responsibility to explore anything else. Israel has responded the same way for decades and it hasn't worked. The only way they know how obviously doesn't work. Smart people learn from past mistakes. Pointing out that Hamas are the bad guys here doesn't make Israel's appoarch anymore successful in hindsight.

 

My point about Israel being the adults here is that they are the ones with the stronger international support, stronger military, better educated citizens, better economy, and the most to lose. I rather see the them, Israel, lead than merely respond to a terrorist influence failed state with nothong to lose. Israel could incinerate Gaza tomorrow if they wanted to. They are in a much stronger position here. With great power comes great responsibility right?

Edited July 28, 2014 by Ten oz

[Irbis]

Meh, It's clear from Deuteronomy 20 that these commands are not general but specific. God is adressing particular people in particular place and time, regarding treatment of specific peoples. No one can use these passages as present day imperatives... and no one does.

 

Uhm, enough(?) of biblical hermeneutics

Edited July 28, 2014 by Irbis

[DimaMazin]

An alternative would be to justify the roughly 25 Palestinians killed for each Israeli?

Does anyone think they are somehow 25 times less valuable?

 

Is that "proportionate"?

Life of a Palestinian is not value for itself. It's main reason of support of terrorism.When they try to kill a victim then they should understand that the victim can appreciate own life more.

[Dekan]

 

 

 

 

 

Meh, It's clear from Deuteronomy 20 that these commands are not general but specific. God is adressing particular people in particular place and time, regarding treatment of specific peoples. No one can use these passages as present day imperatives... and no one does.

 

Uhm, enough(?) of biblical hermeneutics

 

That's a good point. A valuable lesson in military history. Never take any notice of books which discuss questions such as "Should Paulus have attempted a breakout from Stalingrad in 1942", because Paulus, Stalingrad, and indeed 1942, no longer specifically exist. And are therefore irrelevant.

 

I admire such a drastically contemporary approach to history, though it does seem to be rather limiting.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Dekan

[Irbis]

I don't quite get what you mean. From a moral and historical point of view it is fine to debate whether the extermination of Canaanites was ok or not... but my point was something else - that Deuteronomy 20 cannot be used as a present day imperative against Palestinians in much the same way as an order to the German 6th Army to attack Stalingrad cannot be used by present day German Army to justify anything... not even attacking Stalingrad (which by the way was renamed Volgograd since then).

Edited July 28, 2014 by Irbis

[DimaMazin]

 

 

As I previously posted you are creating a false dichotomy. There is more than one way to respond for bothsides. Saying that Israel is "responding the only way they know how" relieves them of any responsibility to explore anything else. Israel has responded the same way for decades and it hasn't worked. The only way they know how obviously doesn't work. Smart people learn from past mistakes. Pointing out that Hamas are the bad guys here doesn't make Israel's appoarch anymore successful in hindsight.

 

My point about Israel being the adults here is that they are the ones with the stronger international support, stronger military, better educated citizens, better economy, and the most to lose. I rather see the them, Israel, lead than merely respond to a terrorist influence failed state with nothong to lose. Israel could incinerate Gaza tomorrow if they wanted to. They are in a much stronger position here. With great power comes great responsibility right?

Israel doesn't need such workers which may kill its people.

Edited July 28, 2014 by DimaMazin

[Airbrush]

As I previously posted you are creating a false dichotomy. There is more than one way to respond for bothsides. Saying that Israel is "responding the only way they know how" relieves them of any responsibility to explore anything else. Israel has responded the same way for decades and it hasn't worked. The only way they know how obviously doesn't work. Smart people learn from past mistakes. Pointing out that Hamas are the bad guys here doesn't make Israel's appoarch anymore successful in hindsight.

 

My point about Israel being the adults here is that they are the ones with the stronger international support, stronger military, better educated citizens, better economy, and the most to lose. I rather see the them, Israel, lead than merely respond to a terrorist influence failed state with nothong to lose. Israel could incinerate Gaza tomorrow if they wanted to. They are in a much stronger position here. With great power comes great responsibility right?

 

I agree with you that Israel is not doing enough to appease the Palestinians in Gaza. There is a heavy-handed blockaide of many things needed in Gaza for their economy. This is what the Palestinians are thinking about. But construction material is used to build tunnels and rockets are smuggled in through the Egyptian tunnels.

 

A "false dichotomy"? How about the fact Hamas wants destruction in Israel, anywhere and ANYONE in Israel, the more the better, indiscriminately, and Israel is only targeting attackers?

 

Why can't the IDF get better intelligence from US spy satellites using infrared to exactly pinpoint the attackers? Then why not fire a kinnetic round that has a small kill radius? Or are the bad guys so closely surrounded by civilians?

Edited July 28, 2014 by Airbrush

[Ten oz]

I agree with you that Israel is not doing enough to appease the Palestinians in Gaza. There is a heavy-handed blockaide of many things needed in Gaza for their economy. This is what the Palestinians are thinking about. But construction material is used to build tunnels and rockets are smuggled in through the Egyptian tunnels.

 

A "false dichotomy"? How about the fact Hamas wants destruction in Israel, anywhere and ANYONE in Israel, the more the better, indiscriminately, and Israel is only targeting attackers?

 

Why can't the IDF get better intelligence from US spy satellites using infrared to exactly pinpoint the attackers? Then why not fire a kinnetic round that has a small kill radius? Or are the bad guys so closely surrounded by civilians?

False Dichotomy - The fallacy of false dichotomy is committed when the arguer claims that his conclusion is one of only two options, when in fact there are other possibilities. The arguer then goes on to show that the 'only other option' is clearly outrageous, and so his preferred conclusion must be embraced.

 

Hamas is a terror organization. They are grade A bad guys. I am not arguing otherwise. However everyone being killed are not members of Hamas and regardless of Hamas' call for the destruction of Israel they lack the fire power to destory Israel. Meanwhile Israel has the power to destory Gaza when ever they are ready. Israel is in a superior position of power regardless of how evil Hamas is.

 

This whole debate is like a use of force police video where an unarmed criminal, who has been cornered after commiting a crime, gets beat senseless by well equipped police officers; they taser him, pepper spray, hits him with night sticks, but still the criminal crawls and says obscenities so the beating continues. The whole time the several small children stand just off to the side watching in horror. If only the criminal would stop resisting via empty obscenities and weak physical movements the police could stop pounding him into the dirt? Why won't the criminal just stop.

 

Israel is killing Palistinians at a rate of something like 20 to 1 or better. To imply they aren't being allowed to defend themselves is an exaggeration. I agree the world community, NATO specifically, should be more directly involved but Israel ignoring U.N. cease fires and blowing up U.N. facilities in Gaza makes it difficult. Yes, Hamas acted first and Israel was responding. Hamas is a terror organization seeking to instigate violence, of course they acted first. Of course they ignore cease fires. Israel, in my opinion, needs to stop following them down that rabbit whole. Hamas as an organization does not have control over its own members the way Israel has control over its military. No one person or counsel of Palistinians can just say stop. The Israel govt can. It is a huge difference.

[MigL]

So this is how 'proportional response' works.

If I choose to commit a crime, like stealing $500, then the punishment has to be proportional, i.e. I can only be fined $500.

This doesn't seem like much of a deterrent at all, does it ?

 

It seems to me that if we replace Gaza Palestinians with German people and Hamas with Nazi, no-one would have any problem with the killing of a disproportionate number of German 'innocents' during WW2 to stop the Nazis.

 

Or was that OK because the Allies weren't Jewish.

[Ten oz]

So this is how 'proportional response' works.

If I choose to commit a crime, like stealing $500, then the punishment has to be proportional, i.e. I can only be fined $500.

This doesn't seem like much of a deterrent at all, does it ?

 

It seems to me that if we replace Gaza Palestinians with German people and Hamas with Nazi, no-one would have any problem with the killing of a disproportionate number of German 'innocents' during WW2 to stop the Nazis.

 

Or was that OK because the Allies weren't Jewish.

Lets apply proportionality to your example. Hamas does not pose a threat to all the world. Hamas isn't killing millions of people all over the world. Hamas isn't more or as militarily powerful as its enemies. Even to that; war stopped when the Germany surrendered. Germany was allowed a seat back at the table and today is again a powerful country. Whom in Gaza would Israel like to wave a white flag? Which Hamas "leader" can end this by executive order? After that shall Palistine be a soveriegn state with its own military and a seat on UN counsels?

[MigL]

You're right Hamas doesn't pose a threat to the whole world and isn't killing millions of people, but then again, neither was Germany. They were only a threat to Austria, Chekoslovakia and Poland before the Allies developed the 'nads to declare war.

 

And sure the Germans were allowed back to the 'table', and so will the Palestinians be. Nazis, however, will never be and neither should Hamas.

 

Being more powerful doesn't automatically make you wrong, unless, it seems, if you're Israeli.

[CharonY]

How does it even follow? By the same logic it would be perfectly alright to kill everyone in the same apartment complex as a thief since that is going to be a better deterrent? Also pulling a Godwin is not going to automatically make a decent argument. Quite the opposite actually.

[MigL]

It would be alright if everyone in the apartment complex hired a murderer to kill you.

The Palestinians have 'hired' Hamas as their representatives knowing full well their intent to exterminate the Israeli Jews.

 

Get your analogies straight !

 

By the way what's a Godwin ?

[sunshaker]

I keep seeing all this talk about Germany and comparing Hamas to the Nazis, In my view i compare them to the French resistance,

 

Are Hamas “freedom fighters” who are “fighting an illegal occupation of Palestine by Israel.”?

http://www.stanleyfoundation.org/articles.cfm?id=23

 

It is the American gov/press who as defined them as terrorists, All the media in America is controlled by Jews, So who gets to define who Hamas are?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O3eaXCxRUM

 

[LaurieAG]

Meh, It's clear from Deuteronomy 20 that these commands are not general but specific. God is adressing particular people in particular place and time, regarding treatment of specific peoples. No one can use these passages as present day imperatives... and no one does.

 

From a western perspective alone the ancient Greeks and Romans used the method prescribed and, just to mention a few examples, several Irish towns suffered a similar fate in the 17th century at the hands of puritans. In the 19th century the defenders of 'the Alamo' were on the receiving end of 'the treatment'. Just because it is regarded as a war crime now does not mean that it does not occur. Also (fortunately) there is little archaeological evidence in support of the events as given.

 

BTW, I write 'god' as I am not particularly religious and do not wish to project any potential bias that could interfere with analysis of the issue at hand. While I can understand why breaking down the process to core motivations of key players might help I cannot fathom why anybody would consider 'commands from a god' as a valid defense for any current or ancient war atrocity.

 

 

[DimaMazin]

I keep seeing all this talk about Germany and comparing Hamas to the Nazis, In my view i compare them to the French resistance,

 

 

History will define a winner. The winner will define who is who.

[overtone]

 

 

While true that Israel was 'founded' after WW2 by the British on Palestinian soil, don't forget that Palestine was founded after WW1 ( along with other middle eastern countries ) on the lands of the broken up Ottomann Empire.

Palestine was not founded by displacing the existing residents, confining them in homelands chosen by their enemies, building fences and military garrison around them, and expropriating their former lands and resources to be given to other people.

 

Israel was not founded that way either, in the first place (the scam was economic, based on the poor record keeping and land ownership legalities of the Ottoman empire) but it has adopted a policy of expansion by force - Israel has not declared and fixed its boundaries, and has been evicting Palestinians from their farms and homes, settling its own chosen people in them, and expanding its own area of governance for sixty years now. Included in this territorial conquest we find major sources of water as well as the best land for farming and settlement. No other country has been permitted to do this since WWII - the closest comparison might be China's re-annexation of its former lands in Tibet, or possibly Russia's forays in the lands it conquered during WWII in eastern Europe.

 

The country most closely resembling Israel in behavior and policy in the modern age has been South Africa with its apartheid and "homeland" policy - Israel has yet to recognize a Palestinian "homeland", or grant the rights enjoyed by the Homeland residents under apartheid on the borders of white South Africa, but that seems to be the inevitable direction.

 

Everyone involved, which is much of the planet, has agreed that this "two state" solution offers the best feasible way out - every Palestinian political organization has agreed, for example, partly because it would fix the boundaries of Israel and force an end to the settlement expansion(and even a return of some of the expropriated lands (and water, etc) to their generations of farmers and residents. Israel has prevented this solution, however, and the US (Israel's protector in international dealings) has for several bizarre and complex reasons (a majority of the Republican Congressmen that are central to this effort are fundamentalist Christians, with some very odd views on Middle East politics, for example) supported them in this refusal.

 

Alternatively, Israel commits its own Holocaust. Because a one state solution is a Palestinian majority, as things stand now, and that would be the end of Israel as a refuge for Judaism.