Israel-Gaza Strip conflict - who is to blame?

[MigL]

You've gotta be kidding..

 

"The country most closely resembling Israel in behavior and policy in the modern age has been South Africa with its apartheid and "homeland" policy"

 

Palestinians living in Israel enjoy benefits of citizenship, political officea nd freedom of sex and religion. They do NOT on their own soil governed by Hamas.

 

Maybe if Hamas chose to smuggle in food and medical supplies instead of thousands of rockets through the 'walls' and 'fences' the Israeliis build they would better serve their people.

[DimaMazin]

Even Saudi Arabia prefers to employ Filipinos instead of Palestinians. Where is islamic solidarity?

[Dekan]

There's no solidarity in Islam - it's Sunnis against Shi'ites. Like Catholics against Protestants, Muslims against Buddhists, and the whole wearisome load of superstitious nonsense.

 

This petty, stupid squabbling is a painful distraction for intelligent humans who want to get on with Science.

 

But what can we do? Intelligent humans are in a minority. Idiots are running the show.

[sunshaker]

Perhaps when America stops pumping in vast amounts of money and fighting the battles of a country that celebrates the successful 911 operation, They may try harder at the peace table.

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/03/01/291462/israel-celebrates-successful-911attacks/

[iNow]

Perhaps when America stops pumping in vast amounts of money and fighting the battles of a country that celebrates the successful 911 operation, They may try harder at the peace table.

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/03/01/291462/israel-celebrates-successful-911attacks/

A similar idea was raised on The Daily Show last night:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/30/jon-stewart-middle-east-oprah_n_5632824.html

Politicians on both side of the aisle say the United States wants to bring peace to the Middle East -- and that has Jon Stewart wondering just why we're sending so many weapons to the region.

 

On Tuesday night's "Daily Show," he pointed out that the U.S. is sending arms to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Oman, United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar and Israel.

 

"We're like the Oprah of Middle East Weapons systems!" Stewart said. "You get some bombs! You get some bombs! Everybody get some bombs!"

 

If you're thinking such shipments are a recipe for anything other than peace, you're not alone. Watch the clip above for more.

Video available at the link.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/video-jon-stewart-says-us-oprah-middle-east-weapons-systems

In last night’s “Automatics for the People” segment, Jon Stewart pointed out that we currently provide billions in military aid to the neighboring countries of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Oman, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar and Israel. Our idea of providing regional stability and security seems, fundamentally, to involve throwing money and sophisticated weaponry at the problem.

 

“We’re like the Oprah of Middle East weapons systems,” he joked. “You get some bombs, and you get some bombs. Everybody gets some bombs!”

 

Watch Stewart critique our Middle East policy and point out why “peacing these countries to the hilt” might not be the best idea after all.

[swansont]

All the media in America is controlled by Jews

Even Saudi Arabia prefers to employ Filipinos instead of Palestinians. Where is islamic solidarity?

 

!

Moderator Note

 

I'm betting that this discussion can proceed without the bigotry. These are two examples, but there is more. I'm not using attributed quotes, because I don't want anyone to think they're in the clear because I didn't call them out in this post.

 

This is an important conversation, so how about proceeding in a way that doesn't force it to be locked and/or warnings to be issued and people suspended. Okay? (Rhetorical question)

 

Do not respond to this modnote in the thread.

 

[Bill Angel]

You've gotta be kidding..

 

"The country most closely resembling Israel in behavior and policy in the modern age has been South Africa with its apartheid and "homeland" policy"

 

Palestinians living in Israel enjoy benefits of citizenship, political officea nd freedom of sex and religion. They do NOT on their own soil governed by Hamas.

 

Maybe if Hamas chose to smuggle in food and medical supplies instead of thousands of rockets through the 'walls' and 'fences' the Israeliis build they would better serve their people.

Almost two years ago Palestinians staged a demonstration that was a show of support for Hamas. See

West Bank turns green as Hamas stages its first rally in five years: http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/west-bank-turns-green-as-hamas-stages-its-first-rally-in-five-years

 

That demonstration included women carrying models of the type of rocket Hamas has been firing into Israel, as a show of support for their use by Hamas. For Palestinians to create such imagery, which is of course seen by Israelis, is a stupid move politically, as it only serves to stiffen the resolve of the Israelis to root out Hamas' ability to launch rocket attacks against Israel, even when such an effort by Israel has the unfortunate consequence of resulting in a large number of civilian Palestinian deaths.

[Irbis]

I suggest everyone watch this (from Egyptian TV):

 

And this is how Palestinian children are brainwashed by Hamas on it's Al Aqsa TV:

 

 

 

 

MEMRI is an excellent resource. You can watch it's YT channel. It posts lots of videos from all around the Arab World... makes it easier to comprehend the scope of insanity going there.

 

BTW: That fragment about talking stones from the first video is not an invention of that kid or TV hosts. IT comes from a sahih (authentic) hadith that is recorded several times in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim - two most authoritative collections of stories from Muhammad's life (yeah, you got it right - he said the day of judgement will not come until after Muslims have killed all Jews)

Edited July 31, 2014 by Irbis

[DimaMazin]

Still it is better to be a scientific liar without money than a well paid religious liar.

[Irbis]

IMHO it's sad to see these kids. Maybe one of them has a potential to win a Nobel Prize or a Fields Medal. But given such an upbringing, they'll become suicide bombers at worst or hate-filled preachers at best. But that's not surprising in a culture that has it's priorities upside down.

 

EDIT: We got a 72h ceasfire. There shouldn't be any in the first place. Hamas must be fought until it's either destroyed or surrenders unconditionally.

 

EDIT2: The ceasefire is over. Hamas violated it by firing missiles from Gaza. Hope these guys will have their guts bombed out of them.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Irbis

[billiards]

One has to feel for the people of Gaza. Israel has no heart. The underlying causes of this tension should be dealt with. A military "response"* only brews more hatred and resentment.

 

*subjective

Edited August 1, 2014 by billiards

[CaptainPanic]

!

Moderator Note

 

Irbis, if you are going to use this forum as a platform to spread your hatred of certain people, your stay here will be VERY short indeed. This is your last warning.

[Irbis]

Can you pinpoint the exact place where I "spread hatred of certain people"?

 

I have to remind you that Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by both US and EU authorities. So, I guess, by calling my anti-Hamas remarks "hatred" you might be jailed for supporting terrorism.

[CaptainPanic]

!

Moderator Note

I am locking this thread for moderator review. It is my mistake not to place a warning that we really do not appreciate the discussion of mod notes. I'll have another mod take a look at this.

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

 

"Hope these guys will have their guts bombed out of them" is wholly inappropriate. The subsequent clumsy attempt at intimidation is simply not a smart tactic.

 

If you can't proceed in a more measured tone, then the discussion can make do without you.

 

I hope that is clear enough for you.

 

 

Do not respond to modnotes in the thread.

 

[DimaMazin]

One has to feel for the people of Gaza. Israel has no heart. The underlying causes of this tension should be dealt with. A military "response"* only brews more hatred and resentment.

 

*subjective

financial help for Palestine _* time without military response / cost of palestinian rocket(100$) = big danger for Israel

[Airbrush]

Alternatively, Israel commits its own Holocaust. Because a one state solution is a Palestinian majority, as things stand now, and that would be the end of Israel as a refuge for Judaism.

 

 

Does anyone know why Israel was not carved out of Southern Germany rather than Palestine, since the Nazis were set on exterminating all Jews in Europe? Is it because the Old Testament kept referring to Palestine as the "Promised Land" and the "Land Flowing With Milk & Honey"?

[Irbis]

Jews lived in Palestine at least 3000 years ago. The reason why it was given to them was not because some deity promised it to them but because that was their ancestral homeland.

[Endy0816]

 

Does anyone know why Israel was not carved out of Southern Germany rather than Palestine, since the Nazis were set on exterminating all Jews in Europe? Is it because the Old Testament kept referring to Palestine as the "Promised Land" and the "Land Flowing With Milk & Honey"?

 

Was basically founded during WWI, though the idea for a Jewish State goes back further than that.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

 

Could have gone a number of different ways:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state

Edited August 1, 2014 by Endy0816

[Royston]

Jews lived in Palestine at least 3000 years ago.

 

Uh huh

 

The Romans invaded Britain roughly 2000 years ago, therefore the UK should attack Italy.

 

 

 

The reason why it was given to them was not because some deity promised it to them but because that was their ancestral homeland.

 

I could proclaim any land mass on this Earth as my 'ancestral homeland', that doesn't mean it holds any importance...just that I gave it that status.

[DimaMazin]

 

Uh huh

 

The Romans invaded Britain roughly 2000 years ago, therefore the UK should attack Italy.

 

 

I could proclaim any land mass on this Earth as my 'ancestral homeland', that doesn't mean it holds any importance...just that I gave it that status.

Correct. Now Jewish part of Israel isn't ancestral homeland of Palestinians.

[Irbis]

First of all - what "Palestinians" are we talking about? Half of these Palestinians are from Jordan, the rest is from Egypt, and most of them are descendants of recent migrants who started arriving there after an economic boom brought on by Jewish migrants. There has never been any Palestinian national identify, distinct from the neighbooring countries and there has never been a state called "Palestine" to say Jews have usurped their lands. If they feel bad in Israel, they can go back to where they came from... And they actually tried to do this in the 1970s but once in Jordan, they began an uprising to overthrow King Hussein's government after which he kicked them out. They cannot live in peace with anyone, not even with themselves.

 

If Palestinians want to be prosperous, they can be. Lots of them live in Israel and enjoy the same rights as the Jewish Israelis. In some aspects they are even privileaged as they, for example, don't have to serve in the IDF. Besides them only orthodox Jews (circa 15% of all Jews in Israel) aren't conscripted by force.

 

The problem with Hamas is not economic in nature, it is religious one. They hate Jews because their prophet hated them and the quran says Muslims cannot take Jews and Christians as friends or rulers. Given how much money they were given since the Oslo accords, they should be the richest region of the Middle East - but they prefered to use that money to finance war with Israel instead.

Edited August 2, 2014 by Irbis

[billiards]

They cannot live in peace with anyone, not even with themselves.

 

 

Half of what you say is just plain racist. The other half is factually misguided or simply wrong. Too bad the quality of discussion is so low.

[Irbis]

...racist!?!? <scratches his head>

 

<quadruple facepalm>

[MigL]

Its gotten even lower after your post, billiards .

Now you can just accuse someone of being racist without backing it with facts , just to stifle opposing discussion.

 

This is not an easy discussion. It stirs up a lot of passion because people are losing their lives. Everyone thinks they have a solution, but most will just lead to more bloodshed. The people directly involved, Israeli and Palestinian, have to want peace. Until they do, or one side exterminates the other, there will not be a lasting peace.

 

That being said, let's call a spade a spade...

Israel is expansionist and a bit of a bully state, but they don't want the palestinian people exterminated. They have similar morals to western democracies.

A lot of Palestinians and certainly Hamas, however, DO want Israel exterminated

Edited August 2, 2014 by MigL