Israel-Gaza Strip conflict - who is to blame?

[dimreepr]

No, 'they' did not 'forgive enough to not seek physical revenge'. They did not seek physical revenge because they feared being killed, i.e. the war would still be on. I agree on your last independent clause and note it is pretty much the opposite of the claim you earlier made that prompted me to reply here. My phrasing would be 'trust and forgiveness are sufficient for peace, but not necessary'.

 

I suggest that you don't understand sufficient and necessary regards logical conditions. No need to respond further however as there's nothing to be gained by it.

 

 

I suggest that you don’t understand the concept that control is illusory, but agreed there’s nothing further to be gained.

 

 

 

Edit/ Maybe you should read 'Long walk to freedom' by Nelson Mandela.

Edited August 7, 2014 by dimreepr

[DimaMazin]

 

 

 

I suggest that you don’t understand the concept that control is illusory, but agreed there’s nothing further to be gained.

 

 

 

Edit/ Maybe you should read 'Long walk to freedom' by Nelson Mandela.

What is the freedom?A financial income?What was a need of Nelson Mandela,which is need to Palestinians also?

[dimreepr]

What is the freedom?A financial income?What was a need of Nelson Mandela,which is need to Palestinians also?

 

 

The freedom to live without fear of persecution, to live contently is independent of finance; do you really think this conflict can learn nothing from this tome?

[Ten oz]

Maybe, but they trusted that surrender didn’t mean their deaths and still they forgave enough to not seek physical revenge; neither trust nor forgiveness need be an absolute to maintain or inspire peace.

Peace in the Middle East is like a Rubiks Cube. You get it all lined up on one side but the rest is still scrambled. A Palestinian state is just one of many things that people in the Middle East have to feel put out about. Slave like conditions for millions to help support western capitalism is another. Oil rich countries have caste systems that have created mass amounts of indentured servitude throughout the region.

 

United Arab Emirates has has a population of 9.2 million. Only 1.4 million are citizens and recieving UAE benefits. The other 7.8 million are migrant labor brought in from India, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/labor-migration-united-arab-emirates-challenges-and-responses

Qatar has a population of 2.1 million with 1.4 million of it being migrant labor. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/14/qatar-reform-labout-laws-outcry-world-cup-slaves

Kuwait has a population of 3.6 million with 2.3 million of it being migrant labor. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Kuwait

Oman has a population of 3.3 million with 1.3 million of it being migrant labor. http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/07/us-oman-jobs-foreigners-idUSBRE9160S020130207

Bahrain has a population of 1.2 million with 600,000 of it being migrant labor. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Bahrain

 

The above countries are small enclaves of wealth. They are the size of large cities yet they are given country status and protected by western interests. Rather than being Banana Republics - ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic ) They are Oil Republics. Such a wealth drain and manipulation of the region over the last century has fueled the instability we see in Iraq, Syria, Iran, and etc. In turn that has provided a platform for terrorist and political extremist to call themselves freedom fighters. The pitch isn't that difficult. You point to the opulence of Israel and then ask the crowd of poor Palestinians if they feel it is fair. Many members of Hamas, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood, and so on are poor stateless people.

 

Forgiveness is a beautiful thing but it won't put food in your children's mouths or guarantee a future that includes opportunity.

[DimaMazin]

 

 

The freedom to live without fear of persecution,

What a crime of Palestinians relative to Israel shouldn't cause persecution?

Edited August 10, 2014 by DimaMazin

[dimreepr]

Peace in the Middle East is like a Rubiks Cube. You get it all lined up on one side but the rest is still scrambled. A Palestinian state is just one of many things that people in the Middle East have to feel put out about. Slave like conditions for millions to help support western capitalism is another. Oil rich countries have caste systems that have created mass amounts of indentured servitude throughout the region.

 

 

I’m not suggesting the road to peace is an easy one, there’s many a pitfall and dead end but they’ll have to take the first step in order to reach the end.

Forgiveness is a beautiful thing but it won't put food in your children's mouths or guarantee a future that includes opportunity.

 

 

No it doesn’t, but it might mean they get to eat what food they do get, rather than being killed or injured whilst playing in the street.

[Ten oz]

No it doesn’t, but it might mean they get to eat what food they do get, rather than being killed or injured whilst playing in the street.

 

Patrick Henery's "give me liberty of give me death" is a more popular mantra than what you are suggesting. In Patrick's case he was ready to lay down his life over taxes. Imagine if the British were killing his family and taking his land.

[dimreepr]

Imagine if the British were killing his family and taking his land.

 

 

 

I imagine he’d seek revenge, and then revenge for his act would, no doubt, be sought; where do you suppose that road ends?

 

I have never suggested forgiving means never defending; revenge doesn't equal defence.

Edited August 11, 2014 by dimreepr

[DimaMazin]

 

 

 

revenge doesn't equal defence.

revenge+defence=war

when revenge=0.5 war then revenge=defence

[John Cuthber]

Peace in the Middle East is like a Rubiks Cube. You get it all lined up on one side but the rest is still scrambled.

 

Forgiveness is a beautiful thing but it won't put food in your children's mouths or guarantee a future that includes opportunity.

I like the analogy: I may steal it as a quote.

Forgiveness won't put food on your children's plates.

But not forgiving will pretty much guarantee that your grandchildren also have empty plates.

[Ten oz]

I like the analogy: I may steal it as a quote.

Forgiveness won't put food on your children's plates.

But not forgiving will pretty much guarantee that your grandchildren also have empty plates.

Either way, forgive or not, I wonder if there will be any land left for Palestinians in the future. A look at their shrinking real estate over the last 65yrs does not appear promising. http://www.worldliteraturetoday.org/sites/default/files/2012/May/palestinian-loss-of-land-1946-2010.jpg

I imagine he’d seek revenge, and then revenge for his act would, no doubt, be sought; where do you suppose that road ends?

 

I have never suggested forgiving means never defending; revenge doesn't equal defence.

Hamas and Palestinian people are not synonymous. Seeking to "defend ones self" from rocket attacks by crippling the infastructure of heavily populated communities and killing civilians sure seems a lot like seeking "revenge" to me. You ask where the road ends; the dead civilians are not the ones driving. As for Hamas, they don't care. Terrorist pick fights. That is what they do. They pick fights and love it when they get one.

[DimaMazin]

 

But not forgiving will pretty much guarantee that your grandchildren also have empty plates.

No.

Less forgiveness cause less grandchildren,less grandchildren cause more food.

[dimreepr]

Hamas and Palestinian people are not synonymous. Seeking to "defend ones self" from rocket attacks by crippling the infastructure of heavily populated communities and killing civilians sure seems a lot like seeking "revenge" to me. You ask where the road ends; the dead civilians are not the ones driving. As for Hamas, they don't care. Terrorist pick fights. That is what they do. They pick fights and love it when they get one.

 

 

It seems we have come full circle:

 

 

As long as mistrust and revenge informs the thinking of either side then war is the inevitable consequence; trusting and forgiveness is the only way to break the cycle.

 

 

[Ten oz]

It seems we have come full circle:

 

The circle could be broken. Ever heard the saying "it takes two to tango". Long as we focus on a single component of this it will appear as a never ending chain.

[dimreepr]

The circle could be broken. Ever heard the saying "it takes two to tango".

 

 

Basically, that’s my point.

Long as we focus on a single component of this it will appear as a never ending chain.

 

 

I didn’t.

[DimaMazin]

 

 

Basically, that’s my point.

 

 

I didn’t.

The conflict can be stopped by blood and sweat. Of course you didn't. The theory isn't practical without sweat and blood.

[dimreepr]

The conflict can be stopped by blood and sweat. Of course you didn't. The theory isn't practical without sweat and blood.

 

OK

[John Cuthber]

We seem to have drifted from the OP's question- "Israel-Gaza Strip conflict - who is to blame?"

Perhaps I'm naive but I think the image 10Oz cited earlier answers that. Is there some valid reason why Israel's land has grown while Palestine's has shrunk?

Edited August 15, 2014 by John Cuthber

[DimaMazin]

 

OK

Should Palestinians have similar fighter?What should be a destination of the fighter?

We seem to have drifted from the OP's question- "Israel-Gaza Strip conflict - who is to blame?"

Perhaps I'm naive but I think the image 10Oz cited earlier answers that. Is there some valid reason why Israel's land has grown while Palestine's has shrunk?

I think many Palestinians did like government of Israel more than government of Palestine therefore they joined to Israel.

[John Cuthber]

 

I think many Palestinians did like government of Israel more than government of Palestine therefore they joined to Israel.

Why do you think that? Have you any evidence?

[DimaMazin]

Why do you think that? Have you any evidence?

We can have no evidence of real opinion of every Palestinian because Palestinians are afraid of each other. It's not surprising in a world of religious prejudices.Palestinians want to work in Israel, it proves that government of Israel is more effective than government of Palestine.

Answer the my question to DIMREEPR then I will know a need of Palestinians.

[MigL]

I'm just going off the 'top of my head' here and haven't done the required research so correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Three major wars were fought between Israel and her Arab neighbours, in 1948, 1967 and 1973. In the last one Egypt and Syria were defeated by the Israelies and Egypt actually entered into a peace treaty with Israel shortly thereafter. Israel returned all captured lands such as the Sinai peninsula and the Golan heights.

They have returned the west bank and Gaza to the palestinians, and even displaced their settlements in gaza to do do so. You are right, however, their settlements have grown in other areas and show no sign of letting up. I do fault them for this, but with the caveat that most palestinians in Israeli settled lands receive excellent treatment and only leave by their own choice. There is way less violence in the co-habited areas than in the separated areas like Gaza.

 

During the last century Americans, with their 'manifest destiny' mantra expanded into the south-west and settled in parts of Texas and California, parts of Mexico at the time. The Mexicans tried to retake Texas by armed force and were defeated, at which point the US annexed both states ( to be fair they may have bought parts of them from Spain, not Mexico ). They have never given these areas back, and even put up a fence, or wall if you wish, along the border to prevent the passage of Mexicans into their own former lands.

 

Does this sound familiar ? Is the US an aparthaid state as Israel is accused of being ?

 

But at least the US has learned its lesson this century and does not keep any territory gained in war any more. What about Germany with the French territories of Alsace and Lorrane after the war of 1870 ? What about the French occupation of the Rhineland after WW1 ? What about the Italians and the Tyrrol region and Trieste they took from Austria-Hungary after WW1 ? What about the Russians and their occupation of the whole eastern block and East Germany after WW2 ? What about China and Tibet ? Or all the people displaced from their homes during the wars in the former Yugoslavia, or the Congo ?

 

Why is no one clamoring for the return of these lands to their former people as Israel is being asked to ?

[John Cuthber]

We can have no evidence of real opinion of every Palestinian because Palestinians are afraid of each other. It's not surprising in a world of religious prejudices.Palestinians want to work in Israel, it proves that government of Israel is more effective than government of Palestine.

Answer the my question to DIMREEPR then I will know a need of Palestinians.

So, when you say

"We can have no evidence of real opinion of every Palestinian"

.you admit that you had could not have had a real idea what you were talking about when you said

"I think many Palestinians did like government of Israel more than government of Palestine".

[dimreepr]

We can have no evidence of real opinion of every Palestinian because Palestinians are afraid of each other. It's not surprising in a world of religious prejudices.Palestinians want to work in Israel, it proves that government of Israel is more effective than government of Palestine.

Answer the my question to DIMREEPR then I will know a need of Palestinians.

 

 

Can you rephrase the question, please.

[DimaMazin]

So, when you say

"We can have no evidence of real opinion of every Palestinian"

.you admit that you had could not have had a real idea what you were talking about when you said

"I think many Palestinians did like government of Israel more than government of Palestine".

I don't recognize.

Of course I do no science, therefore it is very important for me when anyone makes science. Jews do make science in Israel,Palestinians are backward in science.Therefore expansion of Israel is more preferably for me.

 

 

Can you rephrase the question, please.

Do Palestinians need such guy like Martin Luther King?What the guy should try to protect in Palestine?