Israel-Gaza Strip conflict - who is to blame?

[John Cuthber]

 

 

And I guess you'll have to agree John C., since shooting people without trial, in a public square, in the back of the head, is an act of terrorism. And you have stated oppression breeds terrorism,haven't you ?

.

You have just defined the police of most countries as terrorists.

Was that your intention?

 

 

(For example)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre

 

 

I'm not saying it's a good state of affairs, but people identified as "traitors" in wars tend to get very rough justice.

The most successful way to stop this would be to end the war.

 

Incidentally, the Palestinian people might be able to count, in which case they will find that Hamas has executed 18 of their people while the Israelis have killed over a hundred times more, many of them women and children.

That still leaves it pretty clear who "the enemy" are.

Edited August 25, 2014 by John Cuthber

[DimaMazin]

 

It's not freedom which leads people to terrorism, it's oppression.

Human population increase cause competition and oppression. Should we kill each other due to it?Terrorism makes terrorists non competitive.

Edited August 25, 2014 by DimaMazin

[John Cuthber]

Human population increase cause competition and oppression. Should we kill each other due to it?Terrorism makes terrorists non competitive.

I'm sorry, but you will have to explain that. It does not make sense because it is not connected to the text which you quoted.

[dimreepr]

Human population increase cause competition and oppression. Should we kill each other due to it?Terrorism makes terrorists non competitive.

 

 

That’s a non sequitur, competition doesn’t equal oppression.

[MigL]

Most police are very discreet when it comes to public shootings. They always try to hide it. Even a lot of dictatorships try to hide mass killings of their people.

Terrorists on the other hand use the public display to instill fear in the general population, i.e. the more public the better. Witness decapitation videos on the internet. Why is that done, and do you see the difference ?

 

As for comparing numbers, whether Hamas kills Palestinians by execution or by using them as shields makes little difference. You certainly don't see Israel march their Palestinian citizens to southern areas as shields where they may be hit by Hamas rockets. As a matter of fact they don't even have to do military service. It is solely shouldered by the jewish citizens.

 

So while one could argue that Israel does more harm ( debatable ) to Palestinians, so does Hamas. And while the Palestinians cannot get rid of Israel, they could certainly improve their lives by getting rid of Hamas.

[DimaMazin]

 

 

That’s a non sequitur, competition doesn’t equal oppression.

Can backward people confuse consequences of lost competition with oppression?

[dimreepr]

Oh please? This is just getting silly.

Can backward people confuse consequences of lost competition with oppression?

 

 

Can you?

Edited August 25, 2014 by dimreepr

[DimaMazin]

Oh please? This is just getting silly.

 

 

Can you?

Do I have right to be a terrorist when I do?

[dimreepr]

Nope, but you do have the right to be a freedom fighter.

 

Answering a question with a question is a very Jewish stereotype BTW.

[DimaMazin]

Nope, but you do have the right to be a freedom fighter.

 

 

Like Hamas?

[dimreepr]

Like Hamas?

 

 

They think they are.

[DimaMazin]

 

 

They think they are.

Do I have right to kill people when I think that I am a freedom fighter?

Edited August 25, 2014 by DimaMazin

[dimreepr]

Do I have right to kill people when I think that I am a freedom fighter?

 

 

Have you even read any of my posts in this thread?

 

 

Answering a question with a question is a very Jewish stereotype BTW.

 

 

 

You seem to have avoided my implicit question BTW.

[billiards]

Most police are very discreet when it comes to public shootings. They always try to hide it. Even a lot of dictatorships try to hide mass killings of their people.

Terrorists on the other hand use the public display to instill fear in the general population, i.e. the more public the better. Witness decapitation videos on the internet. Why is that done, and do you see the difference ?

 

This is very backwards. You seem to be saying "terrorists are bad because they kill people in a public manner". I think a more straight forward premise would simply be "killing people is bad". Secretly killing people is just as bad as publicly killing people.

 

Also labeling a group as "terrorists" is basically PR. It's a label that can be conveniently applied. Then uncritical minds magically switch off. "It's ok that we're bombing Gaza, we're killing terrorists."

 

As for comparing numbers, whether Hamas kills Palestinians by execution or by using them as shields makes little difference.

 

Uncritical minds would also buy into the notion that it is Hamas who are killing Palestinians by using them as "human shields". This is to have BS force fed down your throat and to regurgitate it. Rather than actually think, it can be easiest to repeat the phrases pumped out by the Israeli PR machine. It is comforting if you can remove all elements of responsibility for your actions, it removes the feelings of guilt.

 

I find the whole idea that the situation in Gaza is comparable to Israelis marching Palestinian citizens to the border so as to line them up as a human shield frankly offensive. In a sense though it does highlight the military disparity. If you resort to this ridiculous notion to excuse Israeli action, it just goes to show how ridiculous Israeli action really is.

 

If you want to play the imagination game. Imagine it were Hamas who had the military might backed by the west. Israel were an oppressed nation with factions of armed rebels or "terrorists" who fired rockets (the most sophisticated warfare they are capable of) and demanded freedom. Now Hamas could carry out pinpoint attacks with minimal fear that the Israeli rockets would actually cause any harm. They destroyed 10s of thousands of homes, Israel's power supply (by "accident"), their water and sewage treatment. They even bombed the UN schools that the entrapped refugees were sheltering in. They killed thousands of civilians. Would you then blame those deaths on the Israeli terrorists?

[MigL]

Yes let's play the imagination game.

Do you doubt for one minute, that if Hamas had Israel's might, they wouldn't use every weapon at their disposal ( including nuclear which Israel has ) to commit genocide and kill every Jew in the area ? It is in their constitution and their 'holy' book after all.

 

Re-read my posts in the context of the preceeding posts.

Terrorists perform acts of brutality to instill fear.

Police also do it, SOMETIMES, but they know its wrong and try to cover up, as in the Ferguson situation which John C. referenced.

 

Hamas harms the Palestinian cause, they do not help it at all.

Or do YOU think it helps when they execute Palestinian civilians,without trial, on alleged conspiracy charges, in a public square, in order to TERRIFY watching civilians ( notice the root word of terrify and terrorist ? ).

[billiards]

Yes let's play the imagination game.

Do you doubt for one minute, that if Hamas had Israel's might, they wouldn't use every weapon at their disposal ( including nuclear which Israel has ) to commit genocide and kill every Jew in the area ? It is in their constitution and their 'holy' book after all.

 

 

OK, so we get to the root of the problem here. (Israel's actions are justified because) you unquestionably believe that if the boot were on the other foot then Hamas would do much, much worse.

 

That is a very lame rationale.

 

In a sense it is irrelevant what Hamas would/would not do. That is because if the boot were on the other foot, Palestine would not be governed by a militant group like Hamas.

 

If you are in the position of power (Israel) -- you have the ability to escalate/de-escalate the situation. Israel could lift their siege of Gaza, and that would undoubtedly ease the tensions. They could actively try to work towards peace. Instead Israel have escalated the situation to an abominable level. One should not buy into the school-yard defense of "ifs, buts / he started it".

[John Cuthber]

Most police are very discreet when it comes to public shootings. They always try to hide it. Even a lot of dictatorships try to hide mass killings of their people.

Terrorists on the other hand use the public display to instill fear in the general population, i.e. the more public the better. Witness decapitation videos on the internet. Why is that done, and do you see the difference ?

 

As for comparing numbers, whether Hamas kills Palestinians by execution or by using them as shields makes little difference. You certainly don't see Israel march their Palestinian citizens to southern areas as shields where they may be hit by Hamas rockets. As a matter of fact they don't even have to do military service. It is solely shouldered by the jewish citizens.

 

So while one could argue that Israel does more harm ( debatable ) to Palestinians, so does Hamas. And while the Palestinians cannot get rid of Israel, they could certainly improve their lives by getting rid of Hamas.

" It is in their constitution and their 'holy' book after all."

No it isn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

 

And it may be in the minds of some Palestinians, but perhaps that's only fair since the destruction of Palestine is the intention of some Israelis.

 

 

Can we nail the "Hamas puts its citizens in the way off the rockets" idea once and for all?

The Gaza strip is so crowded that there's practically nowhere you could drop a shell without hitting civilians.

Israel knows that.

[MigL]

Sorry John, I misspoke.

I meant the Hamas charter, not constitution.

Part II, articles 13, 15,22 and 28.

 

And by holy book I mean the Q'uran, where it states that even rocks and trees will cry out for Muslims to come kill the Jews hiding behind them.

As for you billiards, It was you who suggested 'the imagination game' and what if it was Hamas who was the military power supported by the west.

Then when I do as you suggest it is no longer valid ???

 

You discuss, no sorry, argue, like a five year old.

[DimaMazin]

 

 

Have you even read any of my posts in this thread?

 

 

 

 

You seem to have avoided my implicit question BTW.

You are answering a question with a question.Your posts aren't great policy.

I am not Jew.

[dimreepr]

Your posts aren't great policy.

 

 

 

 

Maybe my advocating non violence and peace is a bad policy but given the resulting bloodbath and suffering that violence brings, maybe it should be given a chance.

 

This conflict is just another example of the haves verses the have not’s. The haves are so afraid of losing everything; they are willing to do almost anything to keep their opulence, including murder and genocide. Sure the have not’s want a little of what the haves have but mostly they just want to wake up tomorrow without fear of persecution and death. Why is sharing, such a human trait, diminished so badly through wealth?

Edited August 26, 2014 by dimreepr

[John Cuthber]

Sorry John, I misspoke.

I meant the Hamas charter, not constitution.

Part II, articles 13, 15,22 and 28.

 

And by holy book I mean the Q'uran, where it states that even rocks and trees will cry out for Muslims to come kill the Jews hiding behind them.

As for you billiards, It was you who suggested 'the imagination game' and what if it was Hamas who was the military power supported by the west.

Then when I do as you suggest it is no longer valid ???

 

You discuss, no sorry, argue, like a five year old.

I think you may be getting muddled I can find plenty of references that say things like this

"On March 30, 2007, Hamas spokesman Ismail Radwan said on Palestinian Authority television

 

The Hour [resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: "Oh, Muslim, servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!"

 

But none which actually cite the Q'uran

 

Can you?

 

Also, you seem to have mistaken Hamas' policies for the policies of the whole Palestinian people.

[billiards]

 

As for you billiards, It was you who suggested 'the imagination game' and what if it was Hamas who was the military power supported by the west.

Then when I do as you suggest it is no longer valid ???

 

You discuss, no sorry, argue, like a five year old.

 

I asked you if you would blame deaths of Israeli citizens on the Israeli terrorists if the boot were on the other foot. Maybe you didn't read that far down the paragraph. But you certainly didn't give me a straight answer. You used the "imagination game" to reveal your inner fear of muslims. In your mind you clearly do not doubt that a free and powerful Palestinian state would lead to an Arab war waged "to commit genocide and kill every Jew in the area". You challenged me to "doubt for one minute", and that is what I did. I doubted.

 

Groups like Hamas would not thrive in a prosperous Palestine. Extremist views tend to come to the fore under extreme situations (i.e. Hamas are kept in business by Israeli oppression). If Palestine were a free state, then I very much doubt that they would wage a war "to commit genocide and kill every Jew in the area". I strongly doubt your premise for backing Israeli action.

[imatfaal]

The quote that MiGL is referring to is hadith not Koran. The hadith is central to Islam - but is not Koran. Let's leave that there - there are numerous threads in religion about the importance of hadith as opposed to koran

 

Sahih Muslim - Book 041 6985

[Ten oz]

In the western world there are numerous examples of religous sayings and messages intetgrated into our culture. Whether it is placing ones hand on a bible, Ten Commandments in public buildings, "God bless" ending speeches, in god se trust on our money, etc, etc, etc. Despite all the religious symbols and passing acknowledgements of god most people in the westerner world are secular. While there is a lot of religious nonsense mixed into the stated motives of groups like Hamas and ISIS at the end of tye day they are not one dimentional. They, like us, have economic and politicall motives. IMO we should stop viewing them so myopically. They are more rhan religous nuts that wake up pray, kill, pray, clean AK-47's, pray, burn american flags, pray, kill some more, pray, eat goat, and pray some more. We view them in such a cartoonish way. Understanding ones enemy is critical to defeating ones enemy.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Ten oz

[MigL]

I don't think I'm muddled at all. Did you read their charter ?

I have always stated that I don't have aproblem with Palestinians ( or Muslems ).

I have a problem with Hamas and other terrorist organizations who are in it just for the sake of destroying a sworn enemy ( Israel ) and using their own people as pawns in the battle. If in doubt, re-read my posts from the biginning.

 

The Palestinian's ( Gaza's ) only fault is that they picked those idiots to represent them.

Other groups of Palestinians, within Israel and without, live in relative peace and with a much higher standard of living.

How long before the people of Gaza get a clue, kick Hamas out, and reap the peace ?