Israel-Gaza Strip conflict - who is to blame?

[MigL]

Quoting one particular example from your wiki link is rather disingenuous CharonY.

While I'm sure it happened a better quote would have been 'the whole third paragraph' listing ALL causes of the exodus.

Or did you just assume I wouldn't read it ?

 

The actual facts suggest that since there are 1.66 million Palestinian living and having citizenship in Israel ( approx. 21 % of Israel's population ), and since I'm sure they did not immigrate into Israel, they and/or their ancestors must have been there since the beginning of Israeli statehood ( obviously in smaller numbers).

Which means that there was NO policy by the state of forcing out Palestinians ( although it was a time of war and I'm sure it happened to some extent as your quote suggests )

 

I see your ( actually humorous ) point Dimreepr, Israel is the point of the OP. But how many times has the UN chastised Israel for their actions while turning a blind eye to the actions of all the other states I mentioned ?

That is the point I was trying to make ( obviously not too well, judging by Ten oz and your responses)

Edited August 19, 2014 by MigL

[CharonY]

 

While I'm sure it happened a better quote would have been 'the whole third paragraph' listing ALL causes of the exodus.

 

Nor did I ever claimed it to be. However, in an earlier comment you stated:

 

 

No John, the Israelis did not chase out the Palestinians.

 

Yet an observer of that time clearly showed the opposite. While many moved for other reasons, contrary to your claim quite a number of, Palestinians who did not flee were chased out. And obviously that also means that those that have not been actively ejected, may have fled to precisely avoid that. That, in turn shows that your narrative that you are trying to spin does not conform to the actual events. It is estimated that around 80% of Palestinians left or were removed from their homes. Likewise various studies and estimates point to (near) total destruction of quite a number of Palestinian settlements, concurrent with land gain by Israel.

That is the 1948 exodus, btw. The 1967 exodus has a report from the UN which describes forcible eviction following the 6-day war.

 

The fact that Palestinians still remain does not equate the fact that they did not remove Palestinians from their home. In fact, a critical person would wonder why they became a minority in the first place. Just for perspective, Nazi-Germany had definitely an active murder program targeted at Jews (and others). However, at the end of the war there were still had Jewish survivors living in Germany (in hiding or married to non-Jews). Estimates put the survivor rate at a mere 10%. But obviously, looking back one cannot take the survivors as an example that no targeted program ever existed against Jews in Germany.

Edited August 20, 2014 by CharonY

[DimaMazin]

People used Jews against Nazi-Germany. Now we use them against Muslim terrorists.Jews are useful.

[dimreepr]

I see your ( actually humorous ) point Dimreepr, Israel is the point of the OP. But how many times has the UN chastised Israel for their actions while turning a blind eye to the actions of all the other states I mentioned ?

That is the point I was trying to make ( obviously not too well, judging by Ten oz and your responses)

 

 

I do see your point and largely agree; all too often the powerful abuse those less so and, as you say, are ignored by the wider/global community, for a variety of reasons.

 

That said, I think, once the world has been spurred into action we should be thankful that at least this time they have decided to act and unite in the condemnation, rather than just say “but what about the last time this happened?”.

[MigL]

I am not 'spinning' anything CharonY.

Your own link lists ALL the causes of the 1948 exodus. You are the one who is implying the cause you quoted is the only one.

 

Palestinians have become a minority in Israel proper because those that remained after 1948 only increased their numbers by birthrate. And since they have jobs and are more affluent than their stateless counterparts, probably have lower birthrates. Palestinians are not allowed to immigrate into Israel, did you forget that fact ?

 

If you google the demographics of the area, the Jewish population increased roughly tenfold since 1945, and since in 1945 the population consisted of roughly 1/3 Jews to Palestinians, the population of Palestinians has decreased to roughly 70% of 1945 numbers.

These numbers are approximate, assume no Palestinian immigration into Israel and of course 2.3 kids to keep a population stable.

[dimreepr]

People used Jews against Nazi-Germany. Now we use them against Muslim terrorists.Jews are useful.

 

 

Why would anyone need to use the Jews against the Nazi’s? They committed such atrocities against so many as to render the use moot.

 

The Palestinians, currently, live in an intolerable situation and react in the only way they think they can, does that make them terrorists?

Many would say they’re just fighting for their freedom and until you've lived under those conditions; who are you to label them terrorists?

 

Israel is currently in an intolerable situation and react accordingly. Many would say too harshly but they wouldn’t.

 

Who’s using who?

Edited August 21, 2014 by dimreepr

[DimaMazin]

 

 

Why would anyone need to use the Jews against the Nazi’s? They committed such atrocities against so many as to render the use moot.

 

The Palestinians, currently, live in an intolerable situation and react in the only way they think they can, does that make them terrorists?

Many would say they’re just fighting for their freedom and until you've lived under those conditions; who are you to label them terrorists?

 

Israel is currently in an intolerable situation and react accordingly. Many would say too harshly but they wouldn’t.

 

Who’s using who?

Do so called fighters for their freedom improve the situation?Let's observe a reality.

[dimreepr]

Do so called fighters for their freedom improve the situation?Let's observe a reality.

 

 

 

No they don’t:

Nor have I suggested they do, maybe you should go back and read my post’s #125 #127 #132 #167.

[DimaMazin]

 

 

 

No they don’t:

 

And it is distinction between real fighters for freedom and terrorists.

[dimreepr]

And it is distinction between real fighters for freedom and terrorists.

 

 

 

Please see post #134.

[DimaMazin]

 

 

 

Please see post #134.

Who are persons which think that Hamas improves the situation?

Edited August 23, 2014 by DimaMazin

[John Cuthber]

And it is distinction between real fighters for freedom and terrorists.

So, you think they are freedom fighters if they win, but terrorists until then.

Well, that's one way to look at it.

However, I invite you to consider Nelson Mandela.

He spent a lot of time in jail and that probably didn't improve his situation.

By your argument, that makes him a terrorist.

I think you will find that most people disagree.

If you are the only one using a particular definition of a word, then it's the wrong definition.

[DimaMazin]

So, you think they are freedom fighters if they win, but terrorists until then.

Well, that's one way to look at it.

However, I invite you to consider Nelson Mandela.

He spent a lot of time in jail and that probably didn't improve his situation.

By your argument, that makes him a terrorist.

I think you will find that most people disagree.

If you are the only one using a particular definition of a word, then it's the wrong definition.

Jail corrected him.

[dimreepr]

Who are persons which think that Hamas improves the situation?

 

 

 

Who thinks Israel’s reaction improves the situation?

Jail corrected him.

 

 

 

That just sullies the memory of the great man; read ‘long road to freedom’ or watch the film.

[Ten oz]

Who thinks Israel’s reaction improves the situation?

 

 

^^Boom

 

Israel is a well financed, organized, well equiped, formal government. Hamas is not. Is Israel properly managing their response? It is a fair question that does not imply blame toward Israel.

[John Cuthber]

Jail corrected him.

In what way?

It did not change his beliefs.

[DimaMazin]

 

 

 

Who thinks Israel’s reaction improves the situation?

 

 

 

That just sullies the memory of the great man; read ‘long road to freedom’ or watch the film.

Everyone think Israel's reaction improves Israel's situation.

Palestinian long road to freedom will be infinite with Hamas.

In what way?

It did not change his beliefs.

What proves he originally had no agressive belief(which could lead him to terrorism if he had freedom)?

Edited August 24, 2014 by DimaMazin

[John Cuthber]

Everyone think Israel's reaction improves Israel's situation.

 

What proves he originally had no agressive belief(which could lead him to terrorism if he had freedom)?

Re the first, nope, I don't.

And the second doesn't mean anything.

It's not freedom which leads people to terrorism, it's oppression.

[dimreepr]

Everyone think Israel's reaction improves Israel's situation.

 

 

Of course they don’t because it doesn’t.

Palestinian long road to freedom will be infinite with Hamas.

 

 

 

ANC’s struggle didn’t seem solvable at the start, hence the title of the book.

[DimaMazin]

 

 

ANC’s struggle didn’t seem solvable at the start, hence the title of the book.

Do Palestinians read the book?How can it help them?

[dimreepr]

Do Palestinians read the book?How can it help them?

 

 

 

Every such struggle is both the same and different and so every solution is both the same and different; reading the book may give them a direction to follow but won’t necessarily deliver the answer.

 

At the end of the day violence, from either side, won’t bring peace.

[Edwina Lee]

" who is to blame?"

Whoever started it; but they have been dead for 4000 years.

 

Unfortunately far too many groups seem to have an interest in carrying it on.

I love this starting point.

 

In law, blame is a convention so as to settle disputes. It solves the problem if the authority of the law is accepted by both claimant and defendant. This is not so.

 

In a determinate universe, everything was determined at its beginning. So all that subsequently happened was predetermined by the laws of physics.

 

So the way towards a future that is worth living is for both sides to work towards peace and stop the blame game.

[dimreepr]

So the way towards a future that is worth living is for both sides to work towards peace and stop the blame game.

 

 

 

I think it’s a bit late to throw in with such a vague/ambiguous answer; how do you suggest they do that?

[MigL]

I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion again...

 

I really do empathize with the Palestinian people, they just can't seem to catch a break.

Not only are the Israel armed forces targetting them, but now Hamas has started public executions of alleged ( untried ) collaborators.

The Palestinian people are being oppressed by Israel and Hamas ( yes there is a difference, all Hamas are Palestinians, not all Palestinians are Hamas ).

Maybe now they'll start realizing who their enemy is, and how they are hurting their chances for peace.

 

And I guess you'll have to agree John C., since shooting people without trial, in a public square, in the back of the head, is an act of terrorism. And you have stated oppression breeds terrorism,haven't you ?

.

[dimreepr]

 

 

 

I think it’s a bit late to throw in with such a vague/ambiguous answer; how do you suggest they do that?

 

 

My apologies for this post; A bad mood and excess alcohol isn’t a good combination.

I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion again...

 

I really do empathize with the Palestinian people, they just can't seem to catch a break.

Not only are the Israel armed forces targetting them, but now Hamas has started public executions of alleged ( untried ) collaborators.

The Palestinian people are being oppressed by Israel and Hamas ( yes there is a difference, all Hamas are Palestinians, not all Palestinians are Hamas ).

Maybe now they'll start realizing who their enemy is, and how they are hurting their chances for peace.

 

And I guess you'll have to agree John C., since shooting people without trial, in a public square, in the back of the head, is an act of terrorism. And you have stated oppression breeds terrorism,haven't you ?

.

 

 

Exactly the same thing happened with the ANC.