EdEarl Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 phys.org Two new reports that focus on the global electricity water nexus have just been published. Three years of research show that by the year 2040 there will not be enough water in the world to quench the thirst of the world population and keep the current energy and power solutions going if we continue doing what we are doing today. It is a clash of competing necessities, between drinking water and energy demand. Behind the research is a group of researchers from Aarhus University in Denmark, Vermont Law School and CNA Corporation in the US. In most countries, electricity is the biggest source of water consumption because the power plants need cooling cycles in order to function. The only energy systems that do not require cooling cycles are wind and solar systems, and therefore one of the primary recommendations issued by these researchers is to replace old power systems with more sustainable wind and solar systems. Lack of water will limit fossil fuel power plants. Will their proponents continue to build them as people who buy no power die from lack of water?
fiveworlds Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Lets face it globally we have too high a population. I can't see a water shortage though there is plenty of water. What I do see is a bunch of greedy corporations lowering water tables and forcing people to buy their water instead of use their own wells. Fact is that unless water is used in nuclear fusion there is still just as much water as there ever was. Edited July 30, 2014 by fiveworlds 1
EdEarl Posted July 30, 2014 Author Posted July 30, 2014 Lets face it globally we have too high a population.Why? I can't see a water shortage though there is plenty of water.So, the droughts reported around the for example, all around the Mediterranean and west of the Mississippi in the US, including California and Texas, are not water shortages? What I do see is a bunch of greedy corporations lowering water tables and forcing people to buy their water instead of use their own wells.Do you claim that the power companies are using water excessively in order to make a killing selling water to the public?
fiveworlds Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) Do you claim that the power companies are using water excessively in order to make a killing selling water to the public? That I don't know but there are companies that do. http://stopnestlewaters.org/communities/mecosta-county-mi So, the droughts reported around the for example, all around the Mediterranean and west of the Mississippi in the US, including California and Texas, are not water shortages? No they are water shortages based on where you are. There is little water in the desert for example but globally there is just as much water. In fact with the supposed melting of the polar ice caps there should be even more water than usual. Hydrogen and oxygen are basic elements we can only really get rid of them by nuclear fusion(which is why depending on nuclear fusion for power is a bad idea.). Most of the places you listed are equatorial which is to be expected as a result of global warming. It's like gold we always have the same amount of gold. Yet it increases in price because lets face it we like playing with toys and we don't like cleaning up after ourselves. Why? Too many people results in water shortages(lowering of water tables) and also pollution. Less people using oil would not be a problem because the earth produces oil over time anyway. However we use too much oil over time and we run out.etc etc etc. fact is our fossil fuels are renewable we just use too much of them. See around here people used to mine fossil fuels by hand. Did so for thousands of years then it is mechanized and we run out. Edited July 30, 2014 by fiveworlds
EdEarl Posted July 30, 2014 Author Posted July 30, 2014 That I don't know but there are companies that do. http://stopnestlewaters.org/communities/mecosta-county-miThe solution is for people to buy a water filter and use either city or well water, instead of buying the water. However, some cities have sold water rights to corporations, and that IMO is wrong. Neither air nor water should be an exclusive corporate asset, anywhere. No they are water shortages based on where you are. There is little water in the desert for example but globally there is just as much water. In fact with the supposed melting of the polar ice caps there should be even more water than usual. Hydrogen and oxygen are basic elements we can only really get rid of them by nuclear fusion(which is why depending on nuclear fusion for power is a bad idea.). Most of the places you listed are equatorial which is to be expected as a result of global warming.There is no shortage of salt water, only fresh water. Melting ice caps and glaciers results in sea level rise, and depletes fresh water resources. Too many people results in water shortages(lowering of water tables) and also pollution. Less people using oil would not be a problem because the earth produces oil over time anyway. However we use too much oil over time and we run out.etc etc etc. fact is our fossil fuels are renewable we just use too much of them. See around here people used to mine fossil fuels by hand. Did so for thousands of years then it is mechanized and we run out.So there is a water shortage! I agree that people are causing pollution and using resources. However, I also believe we can live more frugally and have a better lifestyle that we currently do, with even more people on the Earth. However, reducing the population would let us continue to live slovenly lives with +less pollution and greater access to resources; however, but even a smaller population can pollute more then we do now, waste excessively, and live a worse lifestyle.
fiveworlds Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 (edited) There is no shortage of salt water, only fresh water. Melting ice caps and glaciers results in sea level rise, and depletes fresh water resources. I agree but salt water is still water. The solution is for people to buy a water filter and use either city or well water, instead of buying the water. However, some cities have sold water rights to corporations, and that IMO is wrong. Neither air nor water should be an exclusive corporate asset, anywhere. They try to do this here too people don't like it. So there is a water shortage! I agree that people are causing pollution and using resources. However, I also believe we can live more frugally and have a better lifestyle that we currently do, with even more people on the Earth. However, reducing the population would let us continue to live slovenly lives with +less pollution and greater access to resources; however, but even a smaller population can pollute more then we do now, waste excessively, and live a worse lifestyle. maybe the problem is not all people are so idealistic. They will cause problems where none exist simply because they can. Look at israel they could be solving problems instead they fight. Nobody is any different. Do you really trust people not to fight because I don't and they don't deserve to be trusted. Did you ever think that the most simple solution would work. We have lowered water tables. Why not raise them? I.e pump saltwater inland and release it underground. "Soil and rock layers naturally filter the ground water to a high degree of clarity and often it does not require additional treatment other than adding chlorine or chloramines as secondary disinfectants"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_purification I doubt you would need to use electricity at all. The romans didn't. One of the things the romans would do is build aqueducts "Most were buried beneath the ground" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_aqueduct Italy had lots of deserts. Edited July 31, 2014 by fiveworlds -1
EdEarl Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) @fiveworlds The OP article was about fresh water being in short supply, not all water; although, the title of this post didn't specify. People don't live idealistically, but they do what is necessary to survive, for example many people in the world bathe with only one bucket f water, some not even daily. Salt cannot be removed by filtering it through earth and rocks. Many places wells give salt water. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination Water flows downhill, so whether you need pumps or not depends on geography. Edited July 31, 2014 by EdEarl
fiveworlds Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Salt cannot be removed by filtering it through earth and rocks. Many places wells give salt water. Yeah I have a freshwater spring here the water comes from the sea and filters through earth and rocks before it gets to the spring. Water that is on the ground can evaporate. evaporation causes rain. It cannot evaporate if it isn't there. Water flows downhill, so whether you need pumps or not depends on geography. You never read the aqueduct article. aqueducts are built to use gravity. "It used the gravitation force as the method of moving the water over a sloped channel - starting from the higher source and reaching a lower target." They don't start with the geography we build it. One of the largest projects in Modern Israel is the "Movil Haartzi" (National carrier) which is a long aqueduct that brings water from the Sea of Galilee to the dry Negev desert. http://www.biblewalks.com/info/Aqueducts.html Many places wells give salt water Many don't You also need vegetation and trees. It is a huge amount of work. Essentially you need to terraform. You won't get much rain without plants. It has already been shown that one plant in a jar makes rain. Get it? plants make rain. Edited July 31, 2014 by fiveworlds
EdEarl Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 Yeah I have a freshwater spring here the water comes from the sea and filters through earth and rocks before it gets to the spring. Water that is on the ground can evaporate. evaporation causes rain. It cannot evaporate if it isn't there. You never read the aqueduct article. aqueducts are built to use gravity. "It used the gravitation force as the method of moving the water over a sloped channel - starting from the higher source and reaching a lower target." They don't start with the geography we build it. You didn't read the article on desalination. Your fresh water spring is fed by rain soaking into the ground, not from salt water seeping through the ground. Aqueducts start with water higher than the exit of the aqueduct, because water flows down hill. Some places on Earth are higher than sources of water and an aqueduct cannot provide water without pumping. Pumps can be run by wind, water and animal power, so the ancients did pumped water.
fiveworlds Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Your fresh water spring is fed by rain soaking into the ground, not from salt water seeping through the ground. Correct and to make the rain you need plants. To take enough water to where you need it you need aqueducts or loads of electricity and since you need it to run for say 1000 years + you need aqueducts. See to make enough plants you need an massive amount of water. To bring everywhere. You can desalinate it in a town. However you need enough water there to do that. so the ancients did pumped water. gravity. It has to be gravity. No electricity at all. No pump. If there is land in the way you dig that simple. http://welldonestuff.com/panama-canal/ Though you don't need ships. It's an aqueduct very small compared to what you need. Edited July 31, 2014 by fiveworlds
EdEarl Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 Correct and to make the rain you need plants. To take enough water to where you need it you need aqueducts or loads of electricity and since you need it to run for say 1000 years + you need aqueducts. See to make enough plants you need an massive amount of water. To bring everywhere. You can desalinate it in a town. However you need enough water there to do that. gravity. It has to be gravity. No electricity at all. No pump. If there is land in the way you dig that simple. http://welldonestuff.com/panama-canal/ Though you don't need ships. It's an aqueduct very small compared to what you need. An aqueduct cannot move water uphill without a pump of some kind. It is not necessary for a pump to run on electricity. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_pump http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_ram_pump http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_pump
fiveworlds Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) An aqueduct cannot move water uphill without a pump of some kind. Of course an aqueduct moves by gravity you shape the landscape around the aqueduct so that the flow of water isn't interrupted. Your town might be two miles above the aqueduct but that's okay. So you pump water from the aqueduct to the town using a pump. But the aqueduct does not use a pump it uses gravity. If you were to pump water from the coast all the time that would use loads of electricity.But an aqueduct uses none.Then you need to desalinate the water. Then you need to irrigate plants. It sounds harder than it is dig at the beach. Make a trench up the beach. Ensuring that water flows along it. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_JmyIKngM28/Ti9njKLWaRI/AAAAAAAAA44/dEKqcmli7aA/s1600/IMG_3400.JPG See here http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/10/8/1349695654090/Desert-highway-in-Pecos-T-010.jpg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_view_across_the_desert_landscape_of_Big_Bend_National_Park,_Texas.jpg essentially you need to plant trees and grass. Edited July 31, 2014 by fiveworlds
EdEarl Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 The power needed depends mainly on how high the water needs to be pumped, whether up a slope or straight up, as long as the flow through the pipe or aqueduct is slow. There is some friction between the walls of a pipe and the water, especially with fast rate of flow.
fiveworlds Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Be careful about the piping you use no ceramic, no lead, no copper, no plastic. no metal lead, copper, plastic.metal are poisonous ceramic tends to break Though as an added bonus you could probably make some hydroelectric power stations. We use them here basically water pumped up high as potential energy and in times of peak electricity usage you can release the water and generate electricity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity How that works is simple. You pump water uphill when the cost of electricity is low. Then you generate electricity when the cost of electricity is high. Making money by selling back to the grid. One way of moving water uphill would be to boil it. You need to desaliante it anyway. When the water gets to the top it falls into a freshwater reservoir. Essentially though not having enough plants is the problem. Once it is raining reasonably often it should look after itself. With emphasis on should. Edited July 31, 2014 by fiveworlds
timo Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) The statement made by Aarhus university seems very strange to me. So I tried to find the article. I could not, but I found a few quite remarkable things: The university page lists publication up to 2016 (i.e. two years in the future), which is rather uncommon in my experience. The scientist quoted in the article is apparently quite an active writer, having written (or being about to publish) five books this year (not counting book chapters and papers). But I could not find a publication listed that, judging from its title, seems to cover water shortages due to water requirements of energy generation - I may have missed them, though. So far, this all looks a bit alien to me. But my point is not trying to make ad hominem attacks on the statement. My point is: Does anyone know where to read the actual two publications that are referred to in the article? I would really like to read the actual finding, since I do not believe the validity of press coverage or interview statements (I know how our crap results are being sold by our head of section ...). Edited July 31, 2014 by timo
EdEarl Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Found this: http://bss.au.dk/currently/news/news-item/artikel/worldwide-water-shortage-by-2040/ which says: The team of researchers conducted their research focusing on four different case studies in France, the United States, China and India respectively. Rather than reviewing the situation on a national level, the team narrowed in and focused on specific utilities and energy suppliers. The first step was identifying the current energy needs, and then the researchers made projections as far as 2040, and most of the results were surprising. All four case studies project that it will be impossible to continue to produce electricity in this way and meet the water demand by 2040. More information More information about the research and links to the reports: www.cna.org/ewc Edited July 31, 2014 by EdEarl 1
StringJunky Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Does anyone know where to read the actual two publications that are referred to in the article? I would really like to read the actual finding, since I do not believe the validity of press coverage or interview statements (I know how our crap results are being sold by our head of section ...). I got them from here: http://www.cna.org/ewc http://www.cna.org/research/2014/water-conservation-carbon-dioxide http://www.cna.org/research/2014/clash-competing-necessities Edited July 31, 2014 by StringJunky 1
fiveworlds Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) One thing I forgot to mention boiling water needs no electricity. You could use geothermal energy. Edited July 31, 2014 by fiveworlds -1
Ten oz Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 It is all about money. It always is. Desalination is an option. There are many different ways of doing it. We (United States) don't do more of it because it's expensive. Companies rather just suck lakes and rivers dry on the cheap. When they are all dried up we will start desalinazing ocean water.
EdEarl Posted July 31, 2014 Author Posted July 31, 2014 It must be less expensive to treat waste water, because some cities already treat waste water until it is drinkable. However, Israel does desalinate; thus, it is possible, alt least for countries with enough money. At this time, it is done by reverse osmosis filtering. Some places moisture is taken from the air by nets. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/this-tower-pulls-drinking-water-out-of-thin-air-180950399/?no-ist
Ten oz Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) It must be less expensive to treat waste water, because some cities already treat waste water until it is drinkable. However, Israel does desalinate; thus, it is possible, alt least for countries with enough money. At this time, it is done by reverse osmosis filtering. Some places moisture is taken from the air by nets. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/this-tower-pulls-drinking-water-out-of-thin-air-180950399/?no-istDesalination is slowly coming to the States. San Diego County in California are putting up a large plant. http://carlsbaddesal.com/ Edited July 31, 2014 by Ten oz
fiveworlds Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) It must be less expensive to treat waste water, because some cities already treat waste water until it is drinkable You can culture bacteria on waste water. Certain parts can be sold. There is also http://www2.arnes.si/~kppomm/frames/english/salt_pan.htm if the locality is warm enough. Not for drinking water though. Basically you spread salt water over a shallow cement pool and it evaporates.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_evaporation_pond#mediaviewer/File:Marakkanam_Salt_Pans.JPG Edited July 31, 2014 by fiveworlds
John Cuthber Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Be careful about the piping you use no ceramic, no lead, no copper, no plastic. no metal lead, copper, plastic.metal are poisonous Nope. Lead is poisonous, but is hardly used any more.
Strange Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Nope. Lead is poisonous, but is hardly used any more. And it was used for millennia for plumbing (the clue is in the name) with no ill effects because it soon gets coated in a protective layer of insoluble oxides, etc. There is also http://www2.arnes.si/~kppomm/frames/english/salt_pan.htm if the locality is warm enough. Not for drinking water though. Basically you spread salt water over a shallow cement pool and it evaporates.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_evaporation_pond#mediaviewer/File:Marakkanam_Salt_Pans.JPG That is for making salt, not purifying water.
fiveworlds Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) copper http://drlwilson.com/articles/copper_toxicity_syndrome.htm plastic http://www.breastcancer.org/risk/factors/plastic metal http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/815213-overview That is for making salt, not purifying water. Actually it makes salt by desalinating water. Edited July 31, 2014 by fiveworlds
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