With Whom You Stand?

[Ophiolite]

we are..what we have been taught....isn't the mankind mature enough now to accept fellow human beings..as human being... ....Shouldn't all text book should start teaching the lesson of love for mankind....we are alike .... rather than we are different.....and we will see...that coming generation will be more loving ....No discrimination...No killing .. no hate... All history will be history of mankind.. our history....... rather my or your history.... Think !!!

How do you plan to deal with the fact that people like to disagree and to argue? How will you deal with the fact that when people are in difficulties, fearful for their future, there is an instinctive dislike for anyone different in any significant (to them) way? How will you suppress the centuries old tribal animosity

 

Great dream, really tough implementation - and thinking warm fuzzy thoughts will not get you there.

[Phi for All]

How do you plan to deal with the fact that people like to disagree and to argue? How will you deal with the fact that when people are in difficulties, fearful for their future, there is an instinctive dislike for anyone different in any significant (to them) way? How will you suppress the centuries old tribal animosity

 

Not to mention the epinephrine/norepinephrine cocktail that goes racing through the bloodstream to trigger 30 more hormones when faced with fight or flight. It's tougher to override our urges when they're enhanced by powerful chemicals that tell us to shun what we don't fully understand.

[Moontanman]

I stand with reality, I see no other option...

[s1eep]

I stand with nature, for I can sense inevitable inferiority.

[harshgoel1975]

I stand with reality, I see no other option...

 

and science is reality... love and outcome of love is reality... hate and outcome of hate is reality.....so many real things... books are real... holding a hand of human is real.. but holding the hand of god ?.. is that real...?

[s1eep]

Said in a serious, good-willed yet depressed tone, "we should only think about sex".

 

The author(s) of the bible are what I would call the "final boss".

Edited August 20, 2014 by s1eep

[harshgoel1975]

How do you plan to deal with the fact that people like to disagree and to argue?

 

if a person like to disagree and to fight.. he need to see the doctor and in worst case need to go to mental hospital.....

How will you deal with the fact that when people are in difficulties, fearful for their future, there is an instinctive dislike for anyone different in any significant (to them) way? How will you suppress the centuries old tribal animosity

 

centuries old tribal animosity .... wondering if we any scientific study has been done on this topic... not sure...but if we have taught to live to-gather no matter it will some time but it is not impossible thing.. many countries are example of this....

[Ophiolite]

 

if a person like to disagree and to fight.. he need to see the doctor and in worst case need to go to mental hospital.....

It is useful in a discussion like this to address the points made by other posters, and not address points they have not made. Nowhere did I mention people who like to disagree and fight.

 

Disagreement itself is powerful tool for improvement. Much of the success I have achieved in business, in wide variety of roles, arose because I disagreed with how things were being done currently, and because others disagreed with my proposed changes. Disagreement is, in the right place and conveyed in the right way, a very positive thing. Do you not recognise the value of this? Martin Luther King disagreed with how minorities were treated in the US. Do you think he should have gone to a mental hospital?

 

You might ask, "but why would someone like this confrontation, this disagreement?" Because we are, by nature competitive. We like to compete, perhaps on the football field, perhaps in debate. I like disagreeing with you here, because it forces me to marshal my thoughts in order to express as clearly as I can why I disagree with you. That improves my ability to think and I like that too.

[ccwebb]

 

 

And you base this judgement on what exactly ?

 

Humans are... well humans. We make mistakes, we have plans that mainly concern ourselves. A family man will put his offspring before a homeless, a rich man will put his money before another. Very, very few will you find someone who puts others first. Off the top of my head, Medal of Honor recipients, teachers, firefighters and police are a few that have put others first at some point in their lives. They are truly amazing people. John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends." But, even the best of us are not perfect, sinless. I can be utterly amazed at a persons action, but that does not mean I will bow down and follow them. I would want them in my corner, or on my team, but I only follow one coach. One King.

 

John 5:43-44 "I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God"

To answer the questions from the OP:

 

Why you need to give preference to GOD rather human.

God created human. Sports analogy, why follow the player? Follow the coach, the teacher.

Whom you know better? Fellow Human or GOD.

God

Why you want to go to heaven at the sake of killing your fellow humans.

I want to be in God's presence. I have not, nor been asked to kill fellow humans.

Do you know heaven/GOD exist? but your fellow human are real.

Yes. So. A stone is real, a plant is real. That doesn't mean I will believe in those.

2 Corinthians 4:17-18 "For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

Who you have seen and talked? God or fellow human.

I speak with God daily. My eyes are not worthy, incapable to see Him yet.

Exodus 33:20 "But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Whom you afraid of? GOD or fellow human,

God. All human can do is stop my life here on earth.

Proverbs 1:7 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

Why you start hating the human if he didn’t believe in your GOD?

I don't hate. Everybody has their own choices and paths to pick.

Why you think your GOD is superior to his GOD?

What other God? There is one and only one.

Deuteronomy 4:35 "You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other."

1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."

Why you want to establish your GOD kingdom over all Humans? Who asked you? Why? What his (GOD) purpose?

This is not my want, it is not my Kingdom. I do not walk into your house demanding food or rearranging the furniture.

Psalm 103:19 "The Lord has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all."

Why you want everyone to believe in what you believe as GOD?

I doesn't matter if they believe in what I believe. A relationship with Christ is personal. You pray, confess and follow with Him. I am nothing.

Why you spread propaganda with other humans to convert in believe in what you believe?

I am not converting anybody to what I believe. I am spreading The Word. It is their choice to follow.

Matthew 28:19-20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Why you act as puppet in Hand of GOD to hate your own human beings?

Again, I do not hate. I am not a puppet. When your father tells you do something, you obey out of respect and love. Not because your a puppet.

Why you act as puppet in Hand of some people in the name GOD to hate your own human beings? When even those people never seen the GOD?

This is repetitive.

If the GOD just talk about loves and just loves why daily there is thousands of killing, conversions, preaching and so many things, other than love as well etc. why can’t be it just simply love ?

Because humans make bad choices. Everyone of us, from the person to the head of Church Organizations to even heads of States (Countries). If your actions are not for God, then your actions are selfishness. Yes, God commanded the death of over 100,000 people in the Bible. We do not know His plan. We do not know that the death of a person saves the souls of thousands. We do not know how that person was judged at death. That is not my job. Death on earth is not the end.

Romans 3: 10 -18 "As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;... "

Proverbs 3:5-6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."

[Moontanman]

Humans are... well humans. We make mistakes, we have plans that mainly concern ourselves. A family man will put his offspring before a homeless, a rich man will put his money before another. Very, very few will you find someone who puts others first. Off the top of my head, Medal of Honor recipients, teachers, firefighters and police are a few that have put others first at some point in their lives. They are truly amazing people. John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends." [/size] But, even the best of us are not perfect, sinless. I can be utterly amazed at a persons action, but that does not mean I will bow down and follow them. I would want them in my corner, or on my team, but I only follow one coach. One King.

 

John 5:43-44 "I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God"

To answer the questions from the OP:

 

Why you need to give preference to GOD rather human.

 

God created human. Sports analogy, why follow the player? Follow the coach, the teacher.

 

Whom you know better? Fellow Human or GOD.

 

God

 

Why you want to go to heaven at the sake of killing your fellow humans.

 

I want to be in God's presence. I have not, nor been asked to kill fellow humans.

 

Do you know heaven/GOD exist? but your fellow human are real.

 

Yes. So. A stone is real, a plant is real. That doesn't mean I will believe in those.

2 Corinthians 4:17-18 "For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

 

Who you have seen and talked? God or fellow human.

 

I speak with God daily. My eyes are not worthy, incapable to see Him yet.

Exodus 33:20 "But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

 

Whom you afraid of? GOD or fellow human,

 

God. All human can do is stop my life here on earth.

Proverbs 1:7 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

 

Why you start hating the human if he didn’t believe in your GOD?

 

I don't hate. Everybody has their own choices and paths to pick.

 

Why you think your GOD is superior to his GOD?

 

What other God? There is one and only one.

Deuteronomy 4:35 "You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other."

1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."

 

Why you want to establish your GOD kingdom over all Humans? Who asked you? Why? What his (GOD) purpose?

 

This is not my want, it is not my Kingdom. I do not walk into your house demanding food or rearranging the furniture.

Psalm 103:19 "The Lord has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all."

 

Why you want everyone to believe in what you believe as GOD?

 

I doesn't matter if they believe in what I believe. A relationship with Christ is personal. You pray, confess and follow with Him. I am nothing.

 

Why you spread propaganda with other humans to convert in believe in what you believe?

 

I am not converting anybody to what I believe. I am spreading The Word. It is their choice to follow.

Matthew 28:19-20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

 

Why you act as puppet in Hand of GOD to hate your own human beings?

 

Again, I do not hate. I am not a puppet. When your father tells you do something, you obey out of respect and love. Not because your a puppet.

 

Why you act as puppet in Hand of some people in the name GOD to hate your own human beings? When even those people never seen the GOD?

 

This is repetitive.

 

If the GOD just talk about loves and just loves why daily there is thousands of killing, conversions, preaching and so many things, other than love as well etc. why can’t be it just simply love ?

 

Because humans make bad choices. Everyone of us, from the person to the head of Church Organizations to even heads of States (Countries). If your actions are not for God, then your actions are selfishness. Yes, God commanded the death of over 100,000 people in the Bible. We do not know His plan. We do not know that the death of a person saves the souls of thousands. We do not know how that person was judged at death. That is not my job. Death on earth is not the end.

Romans 3: 10 -18 "As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;... "

Proverbs 3:5-6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."

So all you are going to do is quote from a book of fairy tales that insists on horrifically immoral acts as moral?

[harshgoel1975]

It is useful in a discussion like this to address the points made by other posters, and not address points they have not made. Nowhere did I mention people who like to disagree and fight.

 

Disagreement itself is powerful tool for improvement. Much of the success I have achieved in business, in wide variety of roles, arose because I disagreed with how things were being done currently, and because others disagreed with my proposed changes. Disagreement is, in the right place and conveyed in the right way, a very positive thing. Do you not recognise the value of this? Martin Luther King disagreed with how minorities were treated in the US. Do you think he should have gone to a mental hospital?

 

You might ask, "but why would someone like this confrontation, this disagreement?" Because we are, by nature competitive. We like to compete, perhaps on the football field, perhaps in debate. I like disagreeing with you here, because it forces me to marshal my thoughts in order to express as clearly as I can why I disagree with you. That improves my ability to think and I like that too.

 

Disagree and argue is ok... so i added if it is disagree and fight..and say further .start abusing physically.... i guess i quoted your worlds as it is , and add my comments... with all due respect.. there is no intention to misquote or anything further...apologizes... a healthy discussion is always good for everyone...This is what is really needed as well...Point is well noted...

Edited August 23, 2014 by harshgoel1975

[Moontanman]

and science is reality... love and outcome of love is reality... hate and outcome of hate is reality.....so many real things... books are real... holding a hand of human is real.. but holding the hand of god ?.. is that real...?

You would have to show me a god first.

 

 

Huh? Why? I'm not saying what the effects of gods are. I'm asking why getting rid of the concept of God would mean people would all suddenly live in harmony.

Where did I say that no religion would mean everyone would suddenly live in harmony?

[pears]

Where did I say that no religion would mean everyone would suddenly live in harmony?

 

And where did I say you said that? You queried a point I made by asking me something which was completely irrelevant to anything I've said in this thread. I then clarified the point I made (which you had quoted). It might be worth reading through the whole thread to get a sense of the conversation before making odd requests.

Edited August 24, 2014 by pears

[Moontanman]

And where did I say you said that? You queried a point I made by asking me something which was completely irrelevant to anything I've said in this thread. I then clarified the point I made (which you had quoted). It might be worth reading through the whole thread to get a sense of the conversation before making odd requests.

This ia what you said:

 

Huh? Why? I'm not saying what the effects of gods are. I'm asking why getting rid of the concept of God would mean people would all suddenly live in harmony.

I said nothing even close to that I suggest you reread the thread...

 

This is what I said:

 

How about showing some evidence of gods before arguing over what their effects

are

Edited August 24, 2014 by Moontanman

[pears]

*sigh* yes I know. Kindly reread my posts.

 

You said

Where did I say that no religion would mean everyone would suddenly live in harmony?

I said

And where did I say you said that?

 

Why did you originally ask me this:

How about showing some evidence of gods before arguing over what their effects

 

when I had clearly said nothing about what the effects of God are?!

Edited August 24, 2014 by pears

[Moontanman]

Huh? Why? I'm not saying what the effects of gods are. I'm asking why getting rid of the concept of God would mean people would all suddenly live in harmony.

How is that not suggesting what the effects of god are?

[Ophiolite]

My reading of the interchange is that an assertion, implicit or explicit, has been made that removing religion would lead to harmonious relations between people. Pears seems simply to be asking why that would be the case. Asking that question does not imply an existing opinion on the matter.

[Moontanman]

My reading of the interchange is that an assertion, implicit or explicit, has been made that removing religion would lead to harmonious relations between people. Pears seems simply to be asking why that would be the case. Asking that question does not imply an existing opinion on the matter.

Yes but I never said it or implied it...

[iNow]

Pears introduced the implicit strawman in post #22 by asking, "really? Without gods there'd be no disputes?" in direct response to Johns point that many atheists exist fine without accepting the idea of gods, which she quoted immediately preceding her questions. John never suggested lack of belief in gods leads to some utopia so there is no onus on him to address her false representation of his position. She then moved on and tried the same tactic against Moontanman. He also never suggested any such thing.

Edited August 24, 2014 by iNow

[pears]

Yes but I never said it or implied it...

 

It's in the OP. I challenged the OP. You challenged me on what I've said in exchanges about the OP!

Pears introduced the implicit strawman in post #22 by asking, "really? Without gods there'd be no disputes?" in direct response to Johns point that many atheists exist fine without accepting the idea of gods, which she quoted immediately preceding her questions. John never suggested lack of belief in gods leads to some utopia so there is no onus on him to address her false representation of his position. She then moved on and tried the same tactic against Moontanman. He also never suggested any such thing.

How is it a straw man when I'd challenged the OP which makes that exact claim. John replied to my challenge by saying atheists get along fine which appears to challenge my challenge. So then I asked him how that would work. It's not a straw man. It's in the OP!!!

 

Btw your upvote was from me by accident when I tried to hit reply. Just for the record people

My reading of the interchange is that an assertion, implicit or explicit, has been made that removing religion would lead to harmonious relations between people. Pears seems simply to be asking why that would be the case. Asking that question does not imply an existing opinion on the matter.

Exactly!

[Ophiolite]

Yes but I never said it or implied it...

But it has been made elsewhere, has it not? Anyway, is the primary objective to discuss the substance of the matter, or to decide who is "right"?

[Moontanman]

I simply wanted some clarification on the existence of a god or gods before we started speculating on what their absence or presence would be like. Without some clarification on that we have no idea what is being discussed.

 

The question it's self is severely flawed. it's like asking with whom do you stand invisible unicorns or humans...

Edited August 25, 2014 by Moontanman

[pears]

I thought the OP was talking about the absence / presence of the concept of God rather than actual existence/non-existence of God, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

[Ophiolite]

The question it's self is severely flawed. it's like asking with whom do you stand invisible unicorns or humans...

I always stand with the unicorns. Their coats are so incredibly smooth and silky.

[iNow]

How is it a straw man when I'd challenged the OP which makes that exact claim. John replied to my challenge by saying atheists get along fine which appears to challenge my challenge. So then I asked him how that would work. It's not a straw man. It's in the OP!!!

But atheists DO get along fine without accepting/believing in god(s) or god concepts, so what's your point? What reason do you have for conflating this clear fact with an assertion that somehow certain utopia would follow if all belief in deities was abandoned?

 

Further, if you have a challenge for the OP, then super. Direct it there, but for some unknown reason you've chosen instead to direct your tangential questions toward John and Moontanman, hence the present misunderstanding and breakdown in communication.