Schrödinger's Cat paradox: Observers unique to each state

[MirceaKitsune]

Minutes after creating this thread, in which I spoke about the Schrödinger's Cat idea in relation to astronomy and life on other planets, I realized that applying the concept to life in the universe uncovers an interesting paradox as well, which I'm not sure was given quite as much thought. Since this is a subject of its own, I decided to create a new thread for it.

 

- The idea:

 

Schrödinger's Cat is the idea that, when an event noticeable to the human eye can be influenced by quantum physics (such as a particle's quantum leap), all outcomes must exist in a superimposed state until someone measures or observes the outcome and knows which of the possibilities had happened. The Copenhagen interpretation states that, the moment someone measures or observes the outcome, all states collapse into one reality. The Many-worlds interpretation on the other hand states that all outcomes exist, and the act of observing only puts the individual doing the observation into the reality of that outcome.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

 

My issue here is simple: If an observer collapses multiple possible outcomes into a single reality, what happens if another observer is born inside another state, and therefore this state has its own unique observers? I think Schrödinger's Cat already includes this paradox to some extent... but here's the practical question: What if we and all life on Earth exist in a different super-imposed state from an alien life form? Such could be possible if a random event caused life on another planet to exist instead of life on Earth, before any observers existed in the universe. Would we cancel each others existences out upon observation that denies the other side's reality?

 

- Thought experiment:

 

Let's put everything into an easy example; Let's pretend that the only thing in this universe is our solar system, but it contains only two planets revolving around the sun: Earth and Mars. We're at a point in time where life is yet to evolve on either of the two, so no observers exist. Suddenly, a random event inside the sun has a major effect: If false, the sun will continue to shine and soon make life possible on Earth but destroy Mars's atmosphere. If true, a chemical reaction causes solar winds to permanently stop and the sun to emit light of a different brightness and frequency, in a way that makes life impossible on Earth but possible on Mars.

 

A few million years pass. In the first state, life on Earth begins to evolve, and eventually leads to intelligent humans and the world as we know it. In the second state, Martian life begins to take hold, and in a similar amount of time Mars if full of little green men with big heads, and with the same intelligence and similar technology to humans. Around the same time, humans in one state launch a space probe to Mars to see if there's any life there, while in the other state Martians launch their own space probe to Earth to see the same thing. When the human space probe arrives, humanity is disappointed to see that Mars is a barren world which couldn't possibly support life. And when the Martian space probe arrives, Martians find out that Earth is a dead world without any life.

 

At that moment we have two different observers experiencing two different outcomes. So who's in the right? If upon observation both probabilities collapse into one, then either the existence of Martians or that of humans is canceled out. Normally, the first who observes the other planet to be barren would wipe out the existence of life there. But what if somehow, both humans and Martians made their observation at the exact same moment of time? Who would erase who? Would the choice be random, or would the universe simply crash with a Blue Screen Of Death?

 

Could one or both existences even be wiped out at all? This means that in the higher-dimension fabric of the universe, both humans and Martians have lived out their lives, and there are observers unique to each state. This would mean that a person is taking a walk through the park enjoying their self, when suddenly everything goes black and they cease existing, because Martians in a parallel dimension just discovered that their planet is devoid of life.

 

- So:

 

What do you think about this? And in my example with Earth and Mars, what should happen at the moment of observation? Is this indeed proof that time lines exist, or is it more likely that observers unique to one state can remove those unique to another from existence, upon observing an element that indicates they couldn't have existed?

[Delta1212]

The human eye (humans in general) have nothing to do with observation in the quantum mechanical sense. The wave function collapses as soon as there is an interaction for which the relevant property is measured.

 

A wall can observe a tennis ball if the ball bounces off of it. Inanimate objects are fully capable of being observes in a quantum mechanical sense. An object in superposition doesn't require someone looking at it to collapse.

[fiveworlds]

The idea was that the act of observing an atom alters the amount of energy the electron has and therefore there was no way of observing the electron in its original state.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect

Edited August 2, 2014 by fiveworlds

[Strange]

The idea was that the act of observing an atom alters the amount of energy the electron has and therefore there was no way of observing the electron in its original state.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect

 

That has nothing to do with Schrodinger's Hypothetical Cat, though.

[fiveworlds]

http://physics.about.com/od/quantumphysics/f/schroedcat.htm

 

According to the quantum physics wave function, after one hour the radioactive atom will be in a state where it is both decayed and not-decayed. Once a measurement of the atom is made, the wave function will collapse into one state, but until then, it will remain as a superposition of the two quantum states.

 

If you read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger_equation you will see Schrodinger was talking about the quantum wave function of an electron. Performing an observation is an act of measurement. The amount of energy an electron has is based on its position within the quantum wave function. Therefore changing its state change the amount of energy the electron has.

Edited August 2, 2014 by fiveworlds

[MirceaKitsune]

As discussed in the other thread, it appears I might have misunderstood what observation means in this perspective. I concluded it's when the person's mind realizes that one or the other thing happened. But now I understand that interaction is when the object in cause has any form of influence on the observer's body at all... such as reflecting a photon of light outside of a sealed container for example?

 

In this case though, my planets example might be pointless. Since light from each planet shines on the other planet, so any creature on one world would one way or another interact with the other. Although I'm still confused what happens if a superimposed state somehow happens before the evolution of life, and influences life to evolve differently in each state.

[Delta1212]

As discussed in the other thread, it appears I might have misunderstood what observation means in this perspective. I concluded it's when the person's mind realizes that one or the other thing happened. But now I understand that interaction is when the object in cause has any form of influence on the observer's body at all... such as reflecting a photon of light outside of a sealed container for example?

 

In this case though, my planets example might be pointless. Since light from each planet shines on the other planet, so any creature on one world would one way or another interact with the other. Although I'm still confused what happens if a superimposed state somehow happens before the evolution of life, and influences life to evolve differently in each state.

Observers are not required to be alive. If you bounce a tennis ball off of a wall, the wall has observed the tennis ball by interacting with it.

[MirceaKitsune]

Observers are not required to be alive. If you bounce a tennis ball off of a wall, the wall has observed the tennis ball by interacting with it.

 

Thanks, I think that clears everything up... I see what you mean now. In that case my point here might be invalid, because all planets in this universe have probably interacted one way or another, so they should be part of the same state regardless of when life first started evolving.

 

Or have they actually? What if we would apply my example in the first post to planets which are so far away that light didn't reach one another yet? What if on each planet, life evolved in a different superimposed state? What happens when the first photon (or any other particle) reflected by one planet touches the other one?

[andrewcellini]

you're thinking of planets as if they're completely isolated from other systems. what would be the reason for it not to interact with it's surroundings? also why do you think it needs to be an electromagnetic interaction for it to be "observation."

Edited August 4, 2014 by andrewcellini

[MirceaKitsune]

you're thinking of planets as if they're completely isolated from other systems. what would be the reason for it not to interact with it's surroundings? also why do you think it needs to be an electromagnetic interaction for it to be "observation."

 

Determining when an observation really takes place would be a challenge yes. But based on what another user said, I assumed an observation means matter being used in any form for an object to exert an influence onto another object... such as object #1 reflecting a photon onto object #2. So I did wonder if two planets too far away to reflect light from one another can be considered unobserved in relationship to one another... until the first photon of light / first dark matter / etc. reaches it. But I know this is probably not the case, and measurement might take place earlier in some other form.

[Strange]

 

Determining when an observation really takes place would be a challenge yes. But based on what another user said, I assumed an observation means matter being used in any form for an object to exert an influence onto another object... such as object #1 reflecting a photon onto object #2. So I did wonder if two planets too far away to reflect light from one another can be considered unobserved in relationship to one another... until the first photon of light / first dark matter / etc. reaches it. But I know this is probably not the case, and measurement might take place earlier in some other form.

 

Superposition (which is what you are talking about) is a quantum-level effect. An electron, or a photon, or a small number of atoms can exist in a state of superposition until they interact with something else - another electron, atom, etc.

 

So the idea of a macroscopic object, especially the size of a planet, being in a superposition of states is pretty much impossible. It does not require the planet to interact with another planet, it simply requires the particles in that planet to interact with one another.

[MirceaKitsune]

Superposition (which is what you are talking about) is a quantum-level effect. An electron, or a photon, or a small number of atoms can exist in a state of superposition until they interact with something else - another electron, atom, etc.

 

So the idea of a macroscopic object, especially the size of a planet, being in a superposition of states is pretty much impossible. It does not require the planet to interact with another planet, it simply requires the particles in that planet to interact with one another.

 

Ah... I understand now. Yes, when you have a massive object it's difficult for it to go between multiple superimposed states, because they have many atoms which interact with one another and clear the situation up.

[tar]

MirceaKitsune,

 

In your Earth/Mars example, I was thinking that the two states, that of Mars life and that of Earth life where not both happening, because the light coming from the Sun was either of the type that satisfied the life on Earth model or of the type that allowed Mars life to emerge. Therefore both states did not exist or do not exist at the same time. Just the state that is consistent with the actual history of and current frequencies of light eminating from the actual Sun.

 

So the universe is already observing itself. The balls and the walls are already in place and have been since the big bang. The bouncing is continuing and a large number of possible states have already been decided and we are at the one point that is consistent with ALL previous interactions.

 

Regards, TAR

So, there are not observers unique to each state, as that the whole universe must and will agree on whether the cat is alive or dead, once the box is opened.

[Dekan]

 

So, there are not observers unique to each state, as that the whole universe must and will agree on whether the cat is alive or dead, once the box is opened.

 

Once we on Earth opened the box, we could write down what we saw. Like "Box opened August 25, 2014 - cat found dead as a doornail. Definite stiff, and ponging like heck".

 

This information - with the confirmed date of death - could then be sent out to the whole Universe. By such means as radio transmissions, or messages in rockets. Admittedly, the information would take thousands, or millions, of years to arrive. But so what? That's just a time-lag in getting the news. It doesn't affect the facts.

 

I mean, suppose your Uncle Albert died of cirrhosis of the liver, last Monday. But you only received the news on Wednesday. Would you conclude that he wasn't actually dead until Wednesday, when you first heard about it?

 

Surely that would be absurd! Or is it how we should think?

Edited August 24, 2014 by Dekan