Diversity.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

What accounts for diversity. ( No conceptual variables please) If we say evolution as in adaptation, then the question is why adapt. If the one thing is capable of sustaining it's life, then what reason would it have too become something different yet similar.or diversify.?

[Delta1212]

Living thing don't change. A rabbit will always be a rabbit. But children are not identical to their parents nor to each other. Some of those differences will lead to one child being better at surviving than another and so those particular differences are more like to be passed down to the next generation. Dinosaurs didn't turn into birds, but the more bird-like of the dinosaur's children were better able to survive, and the less birdlike children weren't able of "sustaining their life" and so died out.

 

Sometimes more than one group is capable of surviving well and so instead of one change succeeding over the other, both do in different groups and so you get diversity.

[chadn737]

Diversity is caused by mutation, plain and simple. The spread and maintenance of diversity needs to be viewed as a game of chance (genetic drift) and of competition between alleles (natural selection). The interplay of these last two forces maintains or eliminates diversity.

[StringJunky]

What accounts for diversity. ( No conceptual variables please) If we say evolution as in adaptation, then the question is why adapt. If the one thing is capable of sustaining it's life, then what reason would it have too become something different yet similar.or diversify.?

Evolution is not teleological so "why?'" becomes moot.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

The why question purports to science like the how explains works, therefore why does it work. there are many species of ants, if environment, which is another way of saying evolution accounts for diversity. Then what trigger would turn a ant into a termite, or diversify one ant group from another. Is it genetic structures seeking perfection of form.? Take trees all are of wood but why the diversity since the three essentials are the same for them all, sunlight, soil and water.

[zapatos]

Then what trigger would turn a ant into a termite, or diversify one ant group from another.

As chadn737 said, mutation and natural selection.

 

Is it genetic structures seeking perfection of form.?

No. There is no 'seeking' and there is no 'perfection'.

 

Take trees all are of wood but why the diversity since the three essentials are the same for them all, sunlight, soil and water.

There is diversity because a tree that thrives in a swamp is unlikely to thrive in the desert.

[arc]

The why question purports to science like the how explains works, therefore why does it work. there are many species of ants, if environment, which is another way of saying evolution accounts for diversity. Then what trigger would turn a ant into a termite, or diversify one ant group from another.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Termite

Termites are a group of eusocial insects that, until recently, were classified at the taxonomic rank of order Isoptera (see taxonomy below), but are now accepted as the infraorder Isoptera, of the cockroach order Blattodea. While termites are commonly known, especially in Australia, as "white ants," they are not closely related to the ants.

 

So even though they are not closely related and its not a very good example lets imagine why an animal like a drywood termite might be a logical outcome of its environment.

 

We currently have wood boring ants such as carpenter ants that don't actually eat the wood, they have just evolved to nest in it, and it could have been due to some predator that easily dug up any buried nests. So a stronger wooden home in a log gave them an edge over the subterranean ants and those predators that had not developed an answer to getting into those tree trunks. There is also a subterranean ant called a leaf cutter ant, they grow a fungus to eat in their nest, cultivated on the plant leaves that they had gathered.

 

Both these species developed or changed to provide a particular solution to the challenges that their individual environments threw at them. But they both have a similar vulnerability, they must leave their nests to either gather their leaves to grow the fungus, or in the carpenter ants case, to gather insects to feed their colony.

 

Termites have similar wood boring and even fungi culturing varieties like the ants, but their bodies are more fragile and the need to retain moisture is critical, so they must stay underground or build tunnels to move from the nest to their food. The drywood termite has evolved to stay and live in its food source and to not need the moist subterranean nests or tunnels.

 

It seems logical then that the (drywood) termites ancestors that could utilize the wood for not only food but also shelter would gain some advantage, and could avoid the predators that still preyed on the other dampwood and subterranean varieties that are more vulnerable to the claws and even long tongues of predators.

 

But these changes that seem to us as logical and some would even suggest hint at an almost determinant motivation on the part of the termite are in actuality the likely result of that particular environment slowly becoming drier and forcing the selecting of a new species.

 

 

 

 

edit spelling.

Edited August 9, 2014 by arc

[Dr. Funkenstein]

@ Arc. We can agree that environment is a factor in diversity, but to make the leap that it is solely the only cause, seem faulty. From what we know, varying eras of earths ages, were many. Each lasting billions of years, so it's safe to say that on some of these eras/ages the environmental picture was steady for long periods of time. During such a period, why would a animal in general have cause to diversify. If as you suggest predation may be a cause, would that not be more a tactic of the ant for survival, and in the grand scheme of things of that world, that tactic would then be negated, since then the ant eater would merely devise another way to get at them. the same can be said for habitat, under ground or in a above ground home the adaptation is negated at best, by the very thing that caused the adaptation in the first place. So if diversity is based on just those factors then diversity would have no real purpose or point.

[chadn737]

The why question purports to science like the how explains works, therefore why does it work. there are many species of ants, if environment, which is another way of saying evolution accounts for diversity. Then what trigger would turn a ant into a termite, or diversify one ant group from another. Is it genetic structures seeking perfection of form.? Take trees all are of wood but why the diversity since the three essentials are the same for them all, sunlight, soil and water.

 

Its a valid question and I do not understand this response. It is the job of science to explain questions like this. Mechanisms of evolution like Natural Selection typically eliminate diversity, so it is important to understand what creates it and what preserves it.

[zapatos]

During such a period, why would a animal in general have cause to diversify. If as you suggest predation may be a cause, would that not be more a tactic of the ant for survival, and in the grand scheme of things of that world...

The wording you use suggests that you believe there is a reason or goal of diversity. There is not. Diversity is simply something that naturally occurs due to the way the universe works.

You may as well ask the tactic behind rain falling to the earth instead of to the sky. It falls simply because that is the nature of the universe.

 

...that tactic would then be negated, since then the ant eater would merely devise another way to get at them.

(other than the fact there is no 'tactic') That is exactly right. The anteater is part of the ant's environment. An ant that happens be less visible to the anteater is more likely to survive and reproduce, thus passing on its reduced visibility to its offspring. And once that reduced visibility ant exists in sufficient numbers, the anteater that happens to have senses that allow it to find the less visible ant will be more likely to survive and reproduce, thus passing on its better senses to its offspring. And on and on...

 

It does not matter how stable the environment is, there will always be conditions that allow one being a better chance at survival than another.

 

So if diversity is based on just those factors then diversity would have no real purpose or point.

Correct. There is no real purpose or point. But it happens nonetheless.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

@ Zapatos. If there is no point or purpose to diversity, that would make it a anomaly. Diversity would be the "only" thing in this whole world that is, for no reason at all. I cant even name another thing that fits into that category, therefore logically that statement cant be factual.

[arc]

@ Arc. We can agree that environment is a factor in diversity, but to make the leap that it is solely the only cause, seem faulty. From what we know, varying eras of earths ages, were many. Each lasting billions of years, so it's safe to say that on some of these eras/ages the environmental picture was steady for long periods of time. During such a period, why would a animal in general have cause to diversify. If as you suggest predation may be a cause, would that not be more a tactic of the ant for survival, and in the grand scheme of things of that world, that tactic would then be negated, since then the ant eater would merely devise another way to get at them. the same can be said for habitat, under ground or in a above ground home the adaptation is negated at best, by the very thing that caused the adaptation in the first place. So if diversity is based on just those factors then diversity would have no real purpose or point.

 

 

Well, we can only speculate. But billions of years?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara#History

The climate of the Sahara has undergone enormous variations between wet and dry over the last few hundred thousand years.^[30] This is due to a 41,000 year cycle in which the tilt of the earth changes between 22° and 24.5°.^[31] At present (2000 CE), the Sahara is in a dry period, but it is expected that the Sahara will become green again in 15,000 years (17,000 CE).

 

I suggested climate due to what I believe are more opportunities that the termites in the affected area would be subjected to a forcing mechanism, a gradually drying environment would affect a much larger sample of the species to natural selection. Not necessarily in the Sahara, but a climate induced stress in a geographic area somewhere of a comparable size and scale. A gradual climate transition that would give the species the time needed to adapt to a dryer environment. This adaptation allowed this new hardier termite to move from damp environments in soils and older decomposing downed timber to dryer sources of food and the advantages of living where you work.

 

I think its more difficult to tie predation to this very substantial change, not that it couldn't happen that way, but a much larger selection exposed to the climate forcing increases the odds that adaptable traits are being passed in greater quantities within the affected group.

 

Predation often produces defensive adaptations like stingers and bitter or smelly excretions. There has to be a substantial period of time that the conditions do not change to allow the gradual adaptations to amount to a substantial end result. Predators come and go. Ants started out 110-120 million years ago, termites are even older. I doubt anteaters are the first to discover that ants and termites are tasty.

[zapatos]

@ Zapatos. If there is no point or purpose to diversity, that would make it a anomaly. Diversity would be the "only" thing in this whole world that is, for no reason at all. I cant even name another thing that fits into that category, therefore logically that statement cant be factual.

What is the purpose of gravity? Or rocks? Or erosion?

[Dr. Funkenstein]

@ Zapatos, The purpose of gravity it seems is too hold things in place, within the confines of it space, it's scale may be universal and lacking complete understanding but it's purpose is clear. Rocks are a combination of elements reacting from fusion, it's purpose it would seem is too solidify said elements from their original gaseous form, from there you can make a sandwich out of it. Erosion is movement, it's purpose it seems is to transform the environment.

 

@Arc So diversity is merely a by product of adaption. As environments transform, diversity flourish. seems plausible philosophically, scientifically more investigation is needed. The various way in which a animal may/may not diversify then depends on environmental stability or lack of, and "Other" (For lack of a better word). The point of which is unknown. As people of science don't you think it's weird that the only explanation for diversity is found in the Bible, where it states that "things were created after their own kind" I do not have a religious viewpoint.

[zapatos]

I think we are simply misunderstanding how each of us is using the word 'purpose'.

 

What you describe as the purpose of gravity as 'to hold things in place', I would have called a description of its behavior.

 

To me, purpose implies some sort of design or conscious effort that affected how something like gravity would behave. Such as the purpose of a bridge is to allow the easy movement of traffic across a river, and someone designed and built it for that very reason.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Purpose = accounts for, behavior is merely the starting point for inquiry.

[Essay]

@ Zapatos. If there is no point or purpose to diversity, that would make it a anomaly. Diversity would be the "only" thing in this whole world that is, for no reason at all. I cant even name another thing that fits into that category, therefore logically that statement cant be factual.

The "purpose" of diversity would be to provide more options and opportunities for evolution to utilize, as the climate/environment itself develops through ongoing cycles and changes.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Essay

[arc]

Purpose = accounts for, behavior is merely the starting point for inquiry.

 

Is there a purpose to random events? Adding or subtracting miniscule influences of flora, fauna and climate will change long range outcomes substantially. Purpose imposed onto evolution would suggest a predictive aspect. Would you care to imagine calculating where every grain of sand in a given sand storm will end up in a half a million years?

[Dr. Funkenstein]

@ Arc, We indeed have a predictive aspect on evolution, it's of the same quantity which science has laid bare through it's many ology's. The environment will morph at some point into one which may require wholesale adaptation, just as history has showed that happened before. Therefore diversities purpose, may very well be the mechanics of a eventuality, cellular structures over eons may have come to anticipate all to well. And what exactly is a random event, are you saying man made? otherwise how do equate random having nothing to do with purpose. Name a natural random event.

[Essay]

@Dr. F., I think you're confusing nature's random variations, which eventually manage to survive the random selection process, with "anticipation."

Edited August 15, 2014 by Essay

[arc]

@ Arc, We indeed have a predictive aspect on evolution, it's of the same quantity which science has laid bare through it's many ology's. The environment will morph at some point into one which may require wholesale adaptation, just as history has showed that happened before. Therefore diversities purpose, may very well be the mechanics of a eventuality, cellular structures over eons may have come to anticipate all to well. And what exactly is a random event, are you saying man made? otherwise how do equate random having nothing to do with purpose. Name a natural random event.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale

All cetaceans, including whales, dolphins and porpoises, are descendants of land-dwelling mammals of the Artiodactyl order (even-toed ungulates). Both are related to the Indohyus, an extinct semi-aquatic deer-like ungulate, from which they split around 54 million years ago. These primitive cetaceans first took to the sea about 50 million years ago and became fully aquatic about 5–10 million years later. Their features became adapted for living in the marine environment. Major anatomical changes include streamlining of the body, the migration of the nasal openings towards the top of the cranium, the shrinking and eventual disappearance of the hind limbs, the modification of the forelimbs into flippers, and the growth of flukes on the tail.

 

A deer-like ungulate eventually became;

 

"the blue whale, the largest animal known to have ever existed at 30 m (98 ft) and 180 tonnes (180 long tons; 200 short tons)"

 

This 50 million year transformation began from very small indistinguishable changes in a small group of "land-dwelling mammals of the Artiodactyl order". It may have been similar to the hippos own slow adaptation to water that slowly over generations saw that they both increased their ability to hold their breath underwater.

 

Uncountable environmental influences steered this course like a single grain of sand in a sand storm. A specific plant that adapted to a particular water habitat may have been crucial to these ancestors of whales, and a fish that ate the snail that threatened the plant may have been threatened itself by parasites. And any of these themselves were dependent of cascades of unknowable input. These causes and effects spread out into the preceding history of all these species and all others in history, a random number generator could not be any better at this.

Edited August 15, 2014 by arc

[Strange]

Name a natural random event.

 

Radioactive decay. (Which is also one small contribution to mutations and therefore diversity.)

[Anthony Morris]

What accounts for diversity. ( No conceptual variables please) If we say evolution as in adaptation, then the question is why adapt. If the one thing is capable of sustaining it's life, then what reason would it have too become something different yet similar.or diversify.?

Genetic diversity is the result of mutations caused by a number of things including radiation, certain chemicals, temperature, metabolic responses to starvation and/or dehydration, and even the influence of various species of virus (plus a whole more causes). Diversity is not an end in itself but more of a by-product of the lives of the organisms in which they occur. That diversity can later be used by future generations (assuming said mutations occur in the germinal cells that are used in reproduction) as a resource to adapt to new changes in their environment.