War in Ukraine

[Irbis]

Here you can discuss various aspects of the current war in eastern Ukraine as well as post news about it.

 

Quite an important thing happened recently - the new PM of the "Donetsk People's Republc", Alexandr Zakharchenko confirmed recently that training camps for terrorists indeed exist in Russia and that 1200 of them are in the process of being trained:

 

Video removed by moderator

 

Besides that, Igor Strelkov (aka. Girkin), the military leader of separatists, resigned from his post of the defence minister of DPR. There are unconfirmed reports of him being wounded. Girkin is a Russian veteran who fought during the war in Bosnia on the Serbian side, with reports of him taking part in massacres of Bosniak Muslims in Visegrad. He also fought in the Second Chechen War in which he was responsible for the "forced disappearance" of numerous Chechns.

 

The "humanitarian" convoy from Russia turned out to be mostly empty trucks. My opinion is that the convoy is either a ploy to hide the transport of weapons taking place somwhere else or was sent there empty on purpose in order to bring Russian terrorists back to Russia. It reminds me of the war in Abkhazia in 1992-3 when a "humanitarian convoy" (co-organized by the current Russian minister of defence, Sergey Shoigu) from Russia helped Abkhazian separatists conduct a counter-offensive on Sukhumi which proved successful and ended in a massacre of between 3,000 and 30,000 Geogians in Sukhumi + massive ethnic cleansing.

[DimaMazin]

We shouldn't trust to Putin to not be fools.

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

Irbis, the language of the site is English. Further, your call to post news should include links to news reports. This includes your own claims.

 

Do not repsond to this modnote in the thread

[Irbis]

Destroyed UKR vehicles

 

Look at how this conflict escalated - in 3-4 months it went from being a minor conflict with shots often fired in the air to being an almost full scale war with armored vehicles destroyed every day (72th guards mechanized brigade lost 15 vehicles on 12th August)

A map. There is a newer one but only in Russian while this one is in English:

Edited August 21, 2014 by Irbis

[ajb]

The situation has become even more worrying with the fact that about 220 Russian trucks crossed the boarder without offical permission from Ukraine on Friday. There are obvious questions about the content of these trucks. They are/were headed to the city of Luhansk under rebel control.

 

It is now said that 100 or so of these trucks have crossed back into Russia.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28910215

Edited August 23, 2014 by ajb

[DimaMazin]

The situation has become even more worrying with the fact that about 220 Russian trucks crossed the boarder without offical permission from Ukraine on Friday. There are obvious questions about the content of these trucks. They are/were headed to the city of Luhansk under rebel control.

 

It is now said that 100 or so of these trucks have crossed back into Russia.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28910215

It is better to stop Russians in Ukraine than in Germany. But greed will destroy Europe.

[ajb]

It is better to stop Russians in Ukraine than in Germany. But greed will destroy Europe.

You mean that it may just be better to let Putin have Ukraine?

 

The world tried something similar with part of Czechoslovakia in 1938 and look what happened next. Thats right, Poland invaided Czechoslovakia, they took over Zaolzie.

 

And then in 1939 it all really kicked off.

 

I can't see that letting Putin keep the Crimea and large parts of Ukraine will fair well in the long run. But right now we just hope that things will calm down soon...

[DimaMazin]

You mean that it may just be better to let Putin have Ukraine?

 

The world tried something similar with part of Czechoslovakia in 1938 and look what happened next. Thats right, Poland invaided Czechoslovakia, they took over Zaolzie.

 

And then in 1939 it all really kicked off.

 

I can't see that letting Putin keep the Crimea and large parts of Ukraine will fair well in the long run. But right now we just hope that things will calm down soon...

No, I don't agree with Merkel. Ukraine's conflict has only military decision.Europe should help Ukraine to liberate Donetsk and Luhansk from Russia.To liberate Crimea it is task for USA.But right now Europe and USA are languid and greedy.

[ajb]

Europe should help Ukraine to liberate Donetsk and Luhansk from Russia. To liberate Crimea it is task for USA.

I agree, Europe, the USA and other nations should do what they can to stop Russia taking over other countires. However, we (The West) seem unwilling to militarily square-up to the Soviets Russia. NATO seems to have lost it bite...

 

Of course Putin knows that with popular opinion against the wars in the Middle East that The West is unlikely to want to send troops anywhere.

 

That said we must exhaust all non-military options first, but how much must we give in to Putin before he is content?

 

Volgograd is in Russia right? You are Russian? Do you have some feel for Russian popular opinion about Ukraine?

Edited August 24, 2014 by ajb

[DimaMazin]

 

 

Volgograd is in Russia right? You are Russian? Do you have some feel for Russian popular opinion about Ukraine?

Volgograd's People completely support Putin now, but they do not wish to support him by additional work.

[MigL]

Again this is just a thought exercise to stimulate discussion ( I'm rather fond of them ).

 

Say a few months back, when there was unrest in the Crimea and Putin announced his referendum ( options to become part of Russia or independant, none for status quo ), the Europeans still had their 'nads, and had offered the Ukraine a similar referendum to be held one week earlier than Putin's referendum; the option to become a member of NATO.

 

If the Ukraine had accepted ( I'm sure they would have ), would Putin have been so bold in the Crimea ? Would the current problems in eastern Ukraine still be an issue ? Has Putin been enbolded by the apathy of the West and Europe in particular ? Has Europe sold its 'nads to buy cheap Russian gas ? Now that he's seen what he can get away with, how far will Putin go to re-estabilish the Soviet empire ?

 

...memories of Hitler re-arming Germany in the 30s, then annexing Austria, invading Checkoslovakia and finally Poland before Europe finally did something, Wil we ever learn from history ?...

 

( I'm not that old, but I've hit the half century mark, Besides, AJB brought up Hitler )

[CharonY]

Well, learning from history would require the knowledge of circumstance and context. It is certainly debatable whether there was actually a viable response to the Chamberlain's policy (especially with the lack of hindsight) and to some extent this is also the case here.

It is relevant to note that entering NATO was and is also contentious from the Ukrainian side. Take a look at this Gallup poll http://www.gallup.com/poll/167927/crisis-ukrainians-likely-nato-threat.aspx.Before the crisis Ukraine was already deeply divided on NATO with the west leaning toward them (but still only 39% seeing them positively) whereas the east perceived them as threat (46%).

 

Now the attitude has changed, but still with all the clashes, the support is around 40% as of June http://ukraine.setimes.com/en_GB/articles/uwi/features/2014/07/21/feature-01. Thus, it is likely that in March the referendum would not have passed. This is reflection of the complex situation as Ukraine and specifically Crimea has a significant pro-Russian population.

[MigL]

I have to wonder though, did Ukranians actually see NATO as the threat ?

Or the fact that if they became members, any furure war between east and west would no longer be decided on German soil ( as during the cold war ), but on Ukranian soil, as the 'line of scrimage' moves east.

[DimaMazin]

Again this is just a thought exercise to stimulate discussion ( I'm rather fond of them ).

 

Say a few months back, when there was unrest in the Crimea and Putin announced his referendum ( options to become part of Russia or independant, none for status quo ), the Europeans still had their 'nads, and had offered the Ukraine a similar referendum to be held one week earlier than Putin's referendum; the option to become a member of NATO.

 

If the Ukraine had accepted ( I'm sure they would have ), would Putin have been so bold in the Crimea ? Would the current problems in eastern Ukraine still be an issue ? Has Putin been enbolded by the apathy of the West and Europe in particular ? Has Europe sold its 'nads to buy cheap Russian gas ? Now that he's seen what he can get away with, how far will Putin go to re-estabilish the Soviet empire ?

 

...memories of Hitler re-arming Germany in the 30s, then annexing Austria, invading Checkoslovakia and finally Poland before Europe finally did something, Wil we ever learn from history ?...

 

( I'm not that old, but I've hit the half century mark, Besides, AJB brought up Hitler )

Any formality doesn't work against aggressor.

[CharonY]

I have to wonder though, did Ukranians actually see NATO as the threat ?

Or the fact that if they became members, any furure war between east and west would no longer be decided on German soil ( as during the cold war ), but on Ukranian soil, as the 'line of scrimage' moves east.

 

I can only guess. However, considering that those that generally were against NATO were also more pro-Russian (i.e. East Ukraine) I would think that the ties to Russia are the reason that they were anti-NATO. It is important to remember that the Ukraine is in itself polarized in their stance towards NATO/EU and Russia, which is one of the reason for the initial protests.

[Sensei]

But right now we just hope that things will calm down soon...

 

How can they calm down when western countries constantly are showing their weakness? That's invitation to do even more..

 

Today I read Obama's statement that US won't send troops to help Ukraine. That's outrageous. He could as well said "take Ukraine, we don't care".. That's what pretty normal russian read from today statement after translation between words. He want to be remembered as XXI century Chamberlain.. ?

 

There is only one way to stop putin.

You know what I mean...

[ajb]

How can they calm down when western countries constantly are showing their weakness? That's invitation to do even more..

I think you are right and the weakness will invite Putin to do more, maybe even outside of Ukraine. The other former Soviet countries must be very worried.

 

Today I read Obama's statement that US won't send troops to help Ukraine. That's outrageous. He could as well said "take Ukraine, we don't care".. That's what pretty normal russian read from today statement after translation between words.

Did he unilaterally rule this out? I mean things could change very quickly.

[Sensei]

Anne Applebaum comment about "War in Ukraine"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/anne-applebaum-war-in-europe-is-not-a-hysterical-idea/2014/08/29/815f29d4-2f93-11e4-bb9b-997ae96fad33_story.html?wprss=rss_anne-applebaum

(she is privately wife of Polish foreign minister and laureate of Pulitzer prize)

Edited August 30, 2014 by Sensei

[DimaMazin]

 

 

Did he unilaterally rule this out? I mean things could change very quickly.

Still Obama is irresolute. Though it should improve quality of Kiev's politicians.

[DimaMazin]

Putin continues to capture territories. Is it peace plan of Putin?

[Tzurain]

On a half related note, a Malaysian passenger aircraft was shot down at eastern Ukraine, during the war. (This year)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

[DimaMazin]

Sanctions successfully work. Putin's popularity falls down with falling rouble.

Edited November 7, 2014 by DimaMazin

[Sensei]

Sanctions successfully work. Putin's popularity fall down with falling rouble.

 

Be careful what you are talking (unless you're not anymore in your country). Yesterday they killed actor Alexei Devotchenko

http://en.censor.net.ua/news/310489/russian_actor_alexei_devotchenko_known_for_antiputin_and_proukrainian_views_found_dead_in_a_pool_of

[DimaMazin]

 

Be careful what you are talking (unless you're not anymore in your country). Yesterday they killed actor Alexei Devotchenko

http://en.censor.net.ua/news/310489/russian_actor_alexei_devotchenko_known_for_antiputin_and_proukrainian_views_found_dead_in_a_pool_of

Time increases danger when we don't resist.

[Sensei]

Time increases danger when we don't resist.

 

You should resist when he applied for 3rd cadence against any democratic constitution..