Ferguson conflict - What is the problem, and how to solve it?

[CaptainPanic]

I am not an American, and I struggle to fully understand the cause of the riots in Ferguson, Missouri (link to theguardian.com).

 

Obviously, the shooting of an unarmed black man living in Ferguson was for many people in at town the final straw. But there is surely a deeper problem than that. Is it that black people feel discriminated? Is it that the police are scared shitless patrolling the poor areas, and shoot much too quickly because of that? Is it because there is no good communication between law enforcement and local inhabitants (no understanding)? Can one even point out a single problem that is the major issue? I'd like to hear some input about this, because I just don't understand the actual issues.

 

However, while I don't understand the problem, I think the solution is the same as in every conflict: Get both parties to talk to each other. The government should take every initiative in that dialogue, while enabling the locals (who are far less organized than the government) to explain their griefs. It seems however that the government takes quite a different approach, demanding the peace returns first and trying to achieve that with a massive show of force. Escalation is a real threat here.

 

I'm curious how others explain the problem, and what solutions you suggest.

[Ophiolite]

Racial prejudice is deeply embedded in the social, economic and political structure of the South.

 

It is one and a half centuries since the civil war ended. It looks like we need a century and a half more.

[swansont]

The problems are myriad.

 

There's a racial divide, which is longstanding.

There's the arrogance of the police, forgetting that they are there to serve and protect the people, not intimidate them and violate their rights

There's the lack of accountability — does anyone think that if this were left to the locals, that the shooting wouldn't deemed to be justified, that the cops wouldn't just cover for each other? (There's a history here as well). They released a video unrelated to the shooting and the police chief was angling to minimize the shooting.

There's the militarization of the police.

There's the utter failure in the strategy and tactics by police who have been escalating the situation and are quite evidently not trained properly (see previous comments bout rights violations).

The tone-deafness of the local and state government.

 

John Oliver does a good job of explaining many of these issues

 

 

All of this, and more, has come to a head.

 

My hope is that when this is all over, someone can go in and get all eligible voters registered so the citizens can effect some change in their local government, who are apparently out of their depth.

[CaptainPanic]

swansont, you seem to put all the blame with the government (and its institutions such as the police). According to you, should I see the black population of the south (or at least those of Ferguson) as victims? Or could they do something about their situation too?

 

Looking at a situation with which I am more familiar, the Netherlands, I observe particular groups of immigrants who are more integrated and seem to be more successful than other groups, while I'd like to think that they have (at least on paper) equal chances. I am of the opinion therefore that there is certainly a task for groups (or individuals) to take some action themselves. What is preventing a black person from renting a house in another neighborhood with better chances? It can't be only financial (because blacks are not the only poor people). Is part of the segregation perhaps by choice? (Edit: I read now that this may sound like I ask a rhetorical question, but it is an open question, because I really don't know).

 

I never believe that there is only 1 party to blame for any conflict, even if there is one obvious dominant party (the government in this case). Btw, note that I do not disagree with anything you posted.

Edited August 19, 2014 by CaptainPanic

[Ten oz]

Racial prejudice is deeply embedded in the social, economic and political structure of the South.

 

It is one and a half centuries since the civil war ended. It looks like we need a century and a half more.

Segregation just ended in the 60's. I think a lot of people (not necessarily you) make the mistake of viewing the end of slavery as the point where healing began. Segregation was long lasting and impacted the black community deeply. It wasn't merely about where blacks had to live or which bathrooms they had to use. Blacks receives unequal and lesser treatment in all areas of society from banking, education, medical, to employment opportunities. While segregation, like slavery, was southern thing it was tolerated by the rest of the country which speaks volumes.

swansont, you seem to put all the blame with the government (and its institutions such as the police). According to you, should I see the black population of the south (or at least those of Ferguson) as victims? Or could they do something about their situation too?

The protests are about the police. If group "A" is protesting group "B" and then group "B" shows up with helmets, guns, tanks, and tear gas the end result will be negative more often than not.

I personally think there is a bit of an exaggeration by the media going on here also. Is this rioting or is this violent protest dispersal? How many people have by killed or injuried? How many business looted? How many flipped cars have been set on fire? Seems to me there has been more damaged caused by mobs following sporting events. Is there a difference between angry protests and rioting? Do you think race of the protestors place a role in the labeling?

 

 

 

Looking at a situation with which I am more familiar, the Netherlands, I observe particular groups of immigrants who are more integrated and seem to be more successful than other groups, while I'd like to think that they have (at least on paper) equal chances. I am of the opinion therefore that there is certainly a task for groups (or individuals) to take some action themselves. What is preventing a black person from renting a house in another neighborhood with better chances? It can't be only financial (because blacks are not the only poor people). Is part of the segregation perhaps by choice? (Edit: I read now that this may sound like I ask a rhetorical question, but it is an open question, because I really don't know).

 

I never believe that there is only 1 party to blame for any conflict, even if there is one obvious dominant party (the government in this case). Btw, note that I do not disagree with anything you posted.

Many blacks do leave the South. There isn't a State in the country without black people. However most people prefer a community. Whether it is Latino, Asian, LGBT, or what have you people are comforted by being around others like themselves. Everyone isn't comfortable moving hundreds of miles away from their family and friends. Plus racism easily follows. The South is the worst but there isn't a racism free State in the country.

[swansont]

swansont, you seem to put all the blame with the government (and its institutions such as the police). According to you, should I see the black population of the south (or at least those of Ferguson) as victims? Or could they do something about their situation too?

An unarmed person was shot, so not being armed is not a viable solution. Not being black is also not a viable option.

 

I don't know how to tell then not to be upset over an incident that should be upsetting. An unarmed teen was shot six frikkin' times, civil rights are being violated left and right — freedom of assembly, freedom of the press — so what is supposed to happen here, ask people to not exercise their rights? The police have the power here, and they are screwing it up.

 

The one night the police didn't have a show of force, after the county police were removed in favor of state police, things were quiet. Then they screwed it up again.

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/08/18/ferguson-timeline-whats-happened-so-far/

 

Looking at a situation with which I am more familiar, the Netherlands, I observe particular groups of immigrants who are more integrated and seem to be more successful than other groups, while I'd like to think that they have (at least on paper) equal chances. I am of the opinion therefore that there is certainly a task for groups (or individuals) to take some action themselves. What is preventing a black person from renting a house in another neighborhood with better chances? It can't be only financial (because blacks are not the only poor people). Is part of the segregation perhaps by choice? (Edit: I read now that this may sound like I ask a rhetorical question, but it is an open question, because I really don't know).

 

I never believe that there is only 1 party to blame for any conflict, even if there is one obvious dominant party (the government in this case). Btw, note that I do not disagree with anything you posted.

We don't know what the extent of the problem would be if the police had not over-reacted with a show of force, instead of the proper tactic of de-escalating the situation. Pointing guns at an unarmed crowd is the wrong approach.

 

I can't speak with any credibility on the issue of a minority trying to live wherever they wish and the obstacles they face. Some of it may indeed be self-segregation, because why would you choose to live in a neighborhood where you would increase the amount of discrimination and ill-will you faced on a daily basis? But there's a lot of this I am just not going to "get" at more than a superficial level, try as I might, because I don't have to live it.

 

I can only imagine that someone citing a statistic that claimed e.g. that incidents of racism (or sexism) have dropped in half sees that very differently from someone who encountered 20 bigots a day at one time and now encounters "only" 10. That probably wouldn't feel like as much of an improvement as the hypothetical statistic indicates.

[zapatos]

Full disclosure: I live about 30 minutes from Ferguson and work about 10 minutes from Ferguson.

 

At this time there is very little that is known by the public regarding this shooting. I suspect that whether or not the shooting is deemed justified, half the population will suspect a miscarriage of justice.

The segregation in St. Louis is by choice; generally speaking blacks like to live near blacks and whites like to live near whites. While racial prejudice is much less pronounced in St. Louis than it was when I was young it is still very common. The segregation feeds on itself. When you don't mix you have doubts about the others. When you have doubts about the others you don't mix. Endless loop.

 

The riots here, while certainly a concern, are not nearly as bad as they appear in the press. Clouds of smoke and people running make for great copy, but they also give the impression that if you showed up in the neighborhood that is all you could expect to see. I am white, Ferguson is majority black, and I would feel perfectly safe amongst the citizens and police of Ferguson. I would only be concerned there at night when tempers are high.

 

I found the John Oliver skit to be representative of much of the reporting on this issue. People cherry pick which items to discuss and present their own interpretation of events. Take the first item in the video. The police said that the victim was shot at least twice but not many more than that. John Oliver decided the police were trying to minimize the situation. Someone else could just as easily say that the police were not going to speak in specifics until the autopsy was complete. In the second item in the video John Oliver complains that the video of the victim robbing a store was an attempt by the police to distract. What he left out was that the police were required to release the video due a Freedom of Information Act request. Too much of what the media does is determined by television ratings.

 

There is an underlying racism here that I am sure I will never understand simply because I am white. I don't know what it feels like to know that every time you walk in a store you get special scrutiny just because of the color of your skin. And growing up in a depressed environment where you have few role models does not help. Blacks are as capable as whites of succeeding here, but they must work harder to do it, and they often don't have the skills or the help to know how to succeed.

 

To me the activities in Ferguson are rife with mistakes on everyone's part. The police were too quick to be heavy handed, and they followed up to the criticism by not even attempting to stop looting. The citizens expect the police to arrest the shooter before anyone could reasonably expect them to have investigated enough to make that call. And some have suggested that looting of wine and tennis shoes from a neighborhood store is a valid response.

 

This is being investigated at the local, state, and Federal level and so a cover up is unlikely. I think it would be in everyone's best interest to just calm the hell down and let this play out.

[CaptainPanic]

Thanks all for the update. It's clarified things for me.

 

The problems seem to have long historical roots, and seem also deeply rooted in the current society. Will this problem eventually solve itself, you think? If not, what would be the 1st step that the government (or any other party involved) should take to move this in a positive direction?

[Ophiolite]

Segregation just ended in the 60's. I think a lot of people (not necessarily you) make the mistake of viewing the end of slavery as the point where healing began. Segregation was long lasting and impacted the black community deeply. It wasn't merely about where blacks had to live or which bathrooms they had to use. Blacks receives unequal and lesser treatment in all areas of society from banking, education, medical, to employment opportunities. While segregation, like slavery, was southern thing it was tolerated by the rest of the country which speaks volumes.

You make an excellent point. One that was in my mind as I wrote my brief post, but which I did not articulate. In my teen years I watched the news from the States, the riots , the marches, the assassinations, the struggle. It certainly informed who I became, I hope in a positive way.

 

I have worked for most of my life within the oil industry and the discrimination within it was still rampant in the 70s, no matter how subtly concealed. Today it is much better, but old habits and beliefs die hard and those who hold them have, in some cases, just got smarter at concealing them.

 

If we pretend the problem has been solved it will never go away.

[swansont]

In the second item in the video John Oliver complains that the video of the victim robbing a store was an attempt by the police to distract. What he left out was that the police were required to release the video due a Freedom of Information Act request. Too much of what the media does is determined by television ratings.

That's what the police claimed, but what FOIA were they responding to? They later admitted that the robbery was unrelated to the shooting, so the video was not released due to any request for information related to the shooting, and did not make it clear that the robbery was unrelated at the time they released it.

[zapatos]

That's what the police claimed, but what FOIA were they responding to?

I don't know which FOIA they were responding to. According to the police chief:

 

Browns family released a statement denouncing the police for smearing the teens name and blaming the victim. The statement described Browns death as a brutal assassination in broad daylight.

 

The police chief defended his decision to release the surveillance tape, saying that he was trying to satisfy the news medias repeated requests for information.

 

What I did was release the videotape to you because I had to, he said. Ive been sitting on it, but too many people put in an FOI request for that, and I had to release it. He was referring to requests under the Freedom of Information Act.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/chief-defends-release-robbery-surveillance-video-n181786

 

They later admitted that the robbery was unrelated to the shooting, so the video was not released due to any request for information related to the shooting, and did not make it clear that the robbery was unrelated at the time they released it.

But they did clear that up a few hours later.

 

I also find it ironic that in the same released statement that the family of Michael Brown can "...denounce the police for smearing the teens name.." and follow that up with by describing Brown's death as a "brutal assassination.

 

Fair is fair. If it is acceptable for the family to call the police officer a 'brutal assassin' and their son a 'gentle giant' before any evidence is in, it should be acceptable for the police to release a factual tape of a crime committed by the dead teen just prior to the shooting.

 

I understand that the shooting was unrelated to the robbery, but there were two violent incidents this teen was involved in within an hour of each other. Showing a tape of what this teen did can hardly be considered smearing of the teen's name.

[iNow]

I'm curious how others explain the problem, and what solutions you suggest.

It's clearly Obama's fault. He should obviously be impeached.

A decent video from last night reinforcing the basic message swansont has been sharing: http://www.businessinsider.com/video-jake-tapper-ferguson-cops-protests-2014-8

[swansont]

 

Fair is fair. If it is acceptable for the family to call the police officer a 'brutal assassin' and their son a 'gentle giant' before any evidence is in, it should be acceptable for the police to release a factual tape of a crime committed by the dead teen just prior to the shooting.

 

I understand that the shooting was unrelated to the robbery, but there were two violent incidents this teen was involved in within an hour of each other. Showing a tape of what this teen did can hardly be considered smearing of the teen's name.

 

No, I disagree. "Fair is fair" is not the credo of the law. One is innocent until proven guilty, and citizens have rights that the government does not; the government wields a large amount of power that people do not have, so they are supposed to be restrained in ways that do not apply to citizens. This is not a clash of equals, and one should not pretend that it is.

[zapatos]

No, I disagree. "Fair is fair" is not the credo of the law.

Of course it is. That is almost the only thing it is.

 

One is innocent until proven guilty, and citizens have rights that the government does not; the government wields a large amount of power that people do not have, so they are supposed to be restrained in ways that do not apply to citizens. This is not a clash of equals, and one should not pretend that it is.

I agree with everything you just said. But this is not a court of law. The family and demonstrators are demanding information from the police. It is unreasonable to tell the police that they should only release information which makes the families claims seem valid and to not release any information that might undercut the claims of the family and demonstrators. If the officer involved in the shooting had just walked out of a bar I am sure the family would have wanted to know that.

 

I suspect that if the police begin to judge for themselves what should and shouldn't be released they will be criticized more than they are now.

 

Releasing raw data with no judgements should be expected of the police. Not just the data that one group or another wants to see.

 

 

 

Another shooting this afternoon...

 

3:05 p.m. ET: St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson said the suspect, a 23-year-old African-American male, had been involved in a convenience store theft early Tuesday afternoon and was seen acting eratically. When two officers stopped him, the suspect shouted, "Shoot me! Kill me now!" The suspect refused verbal commands to stop and approached the officers holding a knife in an "overhand grip," getting within three or four feet of them, police said. Both officers fired at the suspect, killing him.

http://news.yahoo.com/ferguson-protests-live-updates-day-10-130710733.html

Edited August 19, 2014 by zapatos

[Moontanman]

I live in the deep south, this stuff is very disturbing, In the Early 70's there was a huge amount of rioting here, tanks in the street, shooting at fire fighters and of course shooting at rioters and by standers as well. Now days it would be difficult to imagine this happening here, there are still neighborhoods that are segregated both white and black but most of us live beside each other, have a beer on the porch together, look out for each other but the neighborhoods that are segregated, and it's doubtful the black neighborhoods are segregated by choice but mostly by economic disadvantages and the whites are segregated by economic advantages, are still hostile places to some extent.

 

Two nights ago i was leaving the hospital late and took a short cut through one of the "wealthy" neighborhoods and at a stop sign i suddenly found myself lit up like the midday sun, in that neighborhood there are few street lights and fewer cars at that hour. a police helicopter followed me for two blocks until i left that area.

 

Sometimes i think the world has gone crazy, I wish it had been a UFO, at least that wouldn't have made me feel like a roach running across a lighted room...

[iNow]

CaptainPanic - I listen regularly to a podcast put out by NPR called StoryCorps. They do short very intimate first-person snippets and portraits about a specific topic or situation and they get archived in the library of congress.

 

http://storycorps.org/about/

Since 2003, StoryCorps has collected and archived more than 50,000 interviews with over 90,000 participants. Each conversation is recorded on a CD to share, and is preserved at the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress. StoryCorps is one of the largest oral history projects of its kind, and millions listen to our weekly broadcasts on NPR’s Morning Edition and on our Listen pages.

 

StoryCorps’ mission is to provide people of all backgrounds and beliefs with the opportunity to record, share and preserve the stories of our lives. We do this to remind one another of our shared humanity, to strengthen and build the connections between people, to teach the value of listening, and to weave into the fabric of our culture the understanding that everyone’s story matters. At the same time, we are creating an invaluable archive for future generations.

 

This weekend, they had one called, "Just another black face in the streets." It was about a black male being stopped by a police officer in America. I think it helps illuminate some of the underlying themes of this particular issue and is worth the quick 4 minute listen if you're curious about what's happening. Cheers.

 

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/15/340419821/after-a-traffic-stop-teen-was-almost-another-dead-black-male

 

In 2009, Alex Landau was a student at Community College of Denver. After a traffic stop one night, he was severely beaten by Denver Police officers.

 

Alex is African-American. He was adopted by a white couple and he grew up in largely white, middle-class suburbs of Denver.

 

Alex and his mother, Patsy Hathaway, came to StoryCorps to talk about how Alex’s race has influenced his life and what happened that night when police pulled him over.

[Ten oz]

Lots of really good comments in here. Reading comments beneath new articles about this all week has been depressing. This conversation is considerably more reasonable and makes me feel more hopeful.

[swansont]

There are police in Ferguson who are arresting people while not wearing badges or nametags. A huge lapse in accountability.

 

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/19/6043483/ferguson-police-impunity

[Ten oz]

In situations like the one unfolding in Ferguson who is right and who is wrong often gets too much attention in my opinion. Blame matters but so does crisis and incidence management. The example I often use is; if I own an amusement park and on one of my rides young thrill seeking kids somehow purposely unbuckle themselves and stand during the ride resulting in injuries I would do something about the safety of that ride. I would not just point my fingers at the kids for intentionally putting themselves in jeopardy. I would improve safety mearsures on the ride regardless of the fact the injuries weren't my or my amusement parks fault.

 

During Katrina reports of violence were everywhere. On the news it was reported that people were being murdered in the superdome, Coast Guard helicopters were being shot at, roving gangs were attacking people on the streets, etc, etc, etc. All those reports were one of several things that effectively shut down the rescue response. People were left in standing water, left on roof tops, left in the super dome, and etc for days. Many blamed the people of New Orleans. If they just stopped the looting, stopped the shooting, and stopped misbehaving FEMA could get in there and help. Of course what we all found out later is that there were no gangs killing people in the super dome, helicopters weren't being shot, and so on. It was just a bunch of false and or exaggerated reporting. Ultimately the response was a total failure. The final congressional report on Katrina is very insightful. http://www.uscg.mil/history/katrina/docs/USHouseOfRepKatrina2006MainR1eport.pdf

 

I make the Katrina comparison because with the "rioting" in Ferguson because all the reporting seems familiar. Daily the media is reporting things like "Police said they acted in response to gunfire, looting, vandalism and protesters who hurled Molotov cocktails." http://nation.foxnews.com/2014/08/18/molotov-cocktails-thrown-ferguson-police-again

So gunfire is being reported and Molotov cocktails are being hurled? Those reports if true justify tear gas and military grade equipment. But are those reports true? Don't Molotov cocktails catch things on fire. I don't see video or photos of any fires and there are thousands of cameras in Ferguson right now. No video or photos of bullet holes in buildings or cars. What I have seen are images of a few people trashing a liquor store and lots of tear gas. That isn't to say there havent been shooting, fires, and other types of violence but I just can't help but wonder if a lot of the reports aren't exaggerated or out right made up. A shooting last night doesn't justify the weeks worth of blasting people with tear gas proceeded it.

 

Going back to my amusement park analogy; rather than making the ride safer image if I was more interested in catching and punishing the bad kids for standing up on my ride. So I hire extra security guards and have them posted all over the park catching and detaining kids. Would that really be a better solution? I believe that all of this could have been avoid had the Ferguson police immediately released the information they had and embraced protests. Wheeled out portable toilets, portable lights for after hours, and did public Q & A with the people rather than the media. In the United States we have a right to protest. Tanks and riot gear should not the governments initial response to protest. That isn't to say there are no bad people looting in Ferguson, there are. Crisis and incident management at the government level should be better.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Ten oz

[Endy0816]

I guess I am just depressed as it shouldn't matter whether law enforcement comes out full battle rattle or with nothing more than a uniform and a smile.

[swansont]

I guess I am just depressed as it shouldn't matter whether law enforcement comes out full battle rattle or with nothing more than a uniform and a smile.

 

One is much more intimidating than the other. Having a gun pointed at you is not the same situation as not having a gun pointed at you.

[zapatos]

One of the problems is that there is so much grey area and so little that is black and white in these situations. I think that most will agree that police should not visit violence on peaceful protesters, and that protesters should not loot stores or throw Molotov cocktails. But what happens in the grey areas? Peaceful protesters may not feel it is justified to be asked to disperse just because half a block away a couple of hot headed teens started to get rowdy with the police. But if the police are afraid things might be getting too tense, they may feel perfectly justified, even obligated, in deciding that to maintain order the crowd should go away.

 

Both sides often feel a show of force is justified. Protesters scream and shake fists because they want to be heard and seen. If everyone had been quietly sitting in a park for a prayer service, their grievances would not have received the attention they did with the rowdy protests.

An individual police officer may feel that pointing his gun at someone who he thinks is getting out of control may cause that person to have second thoughts about what he is doing, and possibly defuse the situation. Similarly, we've seen the US military move ships between China and Taiwan in the hopes of calming, rather than escalating tensions.

 

This is a very difficult situation for both sides and I don't envy either. Every action is being scrutinized by the world, and the world cannot possibly understand what is going on in the minds of the people at the scene. What appears to be a volatile situation in one spot may appear calm to someone else who is only 20 feet away.

 

We need people to better understand their adversaries. Until you've been in their shoes it is very hard to truly understand why you should be more supportive of them and less confrontational.

[Airbrush]

The problem is a general bad relationship between the Ferguson police and the black community. This is not about Michael Brown, he is only the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Peaceful demonstrators should unite and agree to stop demonstrating at sunset, or an agreed-upon time, so only the few troublemakers are left behind to be arrested.

 

The solution is to improve the general relationship between the Ferguson police and the black community. The Ferguson police have a lot of work to do, so they should get busy improving the relationship.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Airbrush

[Moontanman]

Another shooting filmed this time...

 

[imatfaal]

Shocking video Moon.

 

I read a few articles on a range of sites after viewing it. I liked this Atlantic article which discussed rather than preached and tried to be explanatory rather than judgmental

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/the-killing-of-kajieme-powell/378899/?single_page=true