Ferguson conflict - What is the problem, and how to solve it?

[overtone]

But I also feel that in a highly stressful situation, where violence is occurring, that it is unreasonable to expect that an officer will always remember and properly execute the choke hold taught two years ago when he is now struggling with some huge guy who is intending to do him harm

I think it is reasonable to expect an officer to not use dangerous methods of restraining perps that have been forbidden by his department and illegal for many years. How is he even staying in practice?

 

 

It is not so much spending on the police force as it is the police being given the military's used equipment.

- - - -

But it is the donations from the military that are making the police "a heavily militarized police force".

Much of it is new equipment, either never used by the military or purchased from the manufacturer with Federal grant money that could have purchased something more useful - like squad car cameras.

 

 

It is very difficult to know whether or not Wilson feared for his life or the lives of innocent bystanders. Only he knows for sure. And unless you are confident he is lying in this particular case, you are going to be hard pressed to get an indictment or conviction.

No, it's easy to get an indictment, especially in cases where the physical evidence is so incriminating. You can see from the transcript how hard the prosecutor had to work to rig the jury's findings - bringing the suspect into the grand jury hearing, asking leading questions, reminding the suspect when he forgot to say he feared for his life and coaching him on the right words, giving the suspect who normally would not even be there four hours of time to sway the grand jury, questioning only the accusatory witnesses with hostility and rigor, glossing over the inconsistencies between Wilson's story and the physical evidence, and so forth.

As far as demonstrating beyond a reasonable doubt that Wilson was lying, establishing motive, getting a conviction, etc: That's what trials are for. Given the problems a defense lawyer would have squaring Wilson's account with the physical evidence, that might not be as difficult this time as normally - given competent and dedicated prosecution.

 

As far as fearing for innocent bystanders, they still haven't found all those bullets - they dug one out of the wall of a nearby house, found a few in Brown, but the officer was not in good control of his shooting background. He was just lucky he didn't hit anyone else.

 

 

 

 

Mostly the points I have been trying to get across are that we should not treat an individual officer harshly simply because statistically police are harsh with minorities. We have to address the racist problem, but we shouldn't scapegoat anyone to do it.

The community of Ferguson deserves the same accountability for its police as any other community in Missouri. Wilson's actions look very bad, criminally so, as far as we can tell. Letting Wilson walk on his word in the face of this physical evidence and eyewitness testimony, without even a cross examination of his story , will not clear his name - only a trial would do that.

 

Meanwhile,

Edited December 9, 2014 by overtone

[DimaMazin]

I think it is reasonable to expect an officer to not use dangerous methods of restraining perps that have been forbidden by his department and illegal for many years. How is he even staying in practice?

 

 

Much of it is new equipment, either never used by the military or purchased from the manufacturer with Federal grant money that could have purchased something more useful - like squad car cameras.

 

 

No, it's easy to get an indictment, especially in cases where the physical evidence is so incriminating. You can see from the transcript how hard the prosecutor had to work to rig the jury's findings - bringing the suspect into the grand jury hearing, asking leading questions, reminding the suspect when he forgot to say he feared for his life and coaching him on the right words, giving the suspect who normally would not even be there four hours of time to sway the grand jury, questioning only the accusatory witnesses with hostility and rigor, glossing over the inconsistencies between Wilson's story and the physical evidence, and so forth.

As far as demonstrating beyond a reasonable doubt that Wilson was lying, establishing motive, getting a conviction, etc: That's what trials are for. Given the problems a defense lawyer would have squaring Wilson's account with the physical evidence, that might not be as difficult this time as normally - given competent and dedicated prosecution.

 

As far as fearing for innocent bystanders, they still haven't found all those bullets - they dug one out of the wall of a nearby house, found a few in Brown, but the officer was not in good control of his shooting background. He was just lucky he didn't hit anyone else.

 

 

 

 

The community of Ferguson deserves the same accountability for its police as any other community in Missouri. Wilson's actions look very bad, criminally so, as far as we can tell. Letting Wilson walk on his word in the face of this physical evidence and eyewitness testimony, without even a cross examination of his story , will not clear his name - only a trial would do that.

 

Meanwhile,

Wilson already isn't a criminal because judicial authority justified him. You will be right when your opinion will change the judicial authority, but you will live in backward land then.

[overtone]

 

 

Wilson already isn't a criminal because judicial authority justified him.

But he still looks like a criminal, because the obvious implications of the physical evidence are not defused by such travesties of procedure.

 

One can't clear one's name in such fashion. Too bad for the innocent Wilson.

[DimaMazin]

But he still looks like a criminal, because the obvious implications of the physical evidence are not defused by such travesties of procedure.

 

One can't clear one's name in such fashion. Too bad for the innocent Wilson.

 

If you want to improve work of police then you should reduce quantity of criminals. When many people are criminals then every policeman can't be not a criminal. For me name of Wilson is clearer than name of Brown. If supporters of Brown will win then Russia will win USA . You will be loser in any case.

[MigL]

So some nutbar, no doubt egged on by all the media reports and anger being expressed towards police, executed two New York police officers in broad daylight, after numerous online attacks, before committing suicide. Surely an unjust killing of two innocent officers.

 

I wonder when the police are gonna start rioting all over the country, setting civilian's cars on fire and destroying property ?

[iNow]

Nut bar? Yes. Egged on by those who hope for our justice system to be more just and our civilian police force to be more civil and less lethal? No way. In the vast majority of cases, people protesting are not calling for violence. Quite the opposite really.

 

He was a nutter who also shot his ex-girlfriend. Do you think that attack was also due to people actively and openly calling for continuos improvements in our police force?

Edited December 22, 2014 by iNow

[swansont]

So some nutbar, no doubt egged on by all the media reports and anger being expressed towards police, executed two New York police officers in broad daylight, after numerous online attacks, before committing suicide. Surely an unjust killing of two innocent officers.

 

I wonder when the police are gonna start rioting all over the country, setting civilian's cars on fire and destroying property ?

 

In protest? What would they be protesting? What government injustice happened here?

[Ten oz]

I personally see the recent shootings as a gun and mental health issue no more related to the "hands up" & "I can't breathe" movements than James Holmes was related to the production of the The Dark Knight Rises. When the 2 neo-conservative supporters of Cliven Bundy killed 2 police officers in Las Vegas earlier this year it did nothing to change the national dialogue surrounding the political issues of those militia groups. These shootings (NYC and Tampa) should not be confused with the ongoing protests.

[MigL]

Just trying to restart this thread...

 

Point I' trying to make is that there are crazies in all parts of society who take things to the extreme. They are there in the general population, whether black or white or in-between, as well as in the police forces. Officers are only human after all, some may be bad, some may make mistakes. This is no reason to assume or state that they are all bad.

( sorry this ties into my views about ' insane conservatives, see that thread )

 

Protests that degenerate into violence, or even name calling and obscenities rarely do any good. It has made police officers feel like they are under attack from all sides.

If, on the other hand, the intent is a protest against the system, it is misguided as the best way is to change the system. Get out and vote for change, run for political office, or affect positive change in your community.

Certainly don't destroy your neighbours' property, don't loot from them, and don't call them 'F**KIN' PIGS'.

 

IIRC M.L. King's message was always one of inclusion, i.e. " treat us like people ". He never once attacked another group to say " that group is against us ".

[DimaMazin]

 

In protest? What would they be protesting? What government injustice happened here?

The low salary concerning the dangerous level of work.

[iNow]

The low salary concerning the dangerous level of work.

Police work is certainly dangerous, but to ensure some valid perspective, it doesn't even make the list of top 10 most dangerous jobs according to The Bureau of Labor Statistics. You're more at risk driving a truck or working on a farm.

 

http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/reports/2013-End-of-Year-Preliminary-Report.pdf

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshcfoi1.htm

 

[DimaMazin]

Police work is certainly dangerous, but to ensure some valid perspective, it doesn't even make the list of top 10 most dangerous jobs according to The Bureau of Labor Statistics. You're more at risk driving a truck or working on a farm.

 

http://www.nleomf.org/assets/pdfs/reports/2013-End-of-Year-Preliminary-Report.pdf

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshcfoi1.htm

 

Because police is obligated to shoot earlier.

[iNow]

Because police is obligated to shoot earlier.

This doesn't make sense, on any level, really. This is especially so when you recognize that police in many countries don't even carry guns.

[DimaMazin]

This doesn't make sense, on any level, really. This is especially so when you recognize that police in many countries don't even carry guns.

This destroys your false sense therefore this makes sense. In those countries the police is sticking together with criminality. In USA(where weapon is free) police without weapon will be completely subordinate and afraid of criminals.

Edited December 23, 2014 by DimaMazin

[overtone]

 

 

Officers are only human after all, some may be bad, some may make mistakes. This is no reason to assume or state that they are all bad.

- - - - -

Protests that degenerate into violence, or even name calling and obscenities rarely do any good. It has made police officers feel like they are under attack from all sides.

- - - -

Certainly don't destroy your neighbours' property, don't loot from them, and don't call them 'F**KIN' PIGS'.

So the police are to be respected as individuals and not characterized by Wilson's behavior ,

despite their overtly collective and common and public support of Wilson's behavior

but the entire community of people who think this recent Wilson case was the last straw example of some aspects of US law enforcement that need to be changed, are to be labeled according to the behavior of a few rioting vandals and looters taking advantage of opportunity

and that lumping of entire communities into rioting foes by the police is ok?

[DimaMazin]

So the police are to be respected as individuals and not characterized by Wilson's behavior ,

despite their overtly collective and common and public support of Wilson's behavior

but the entire community of people who think this recent Wilson case was the last straw example of some aspects of US law enforcement that need to be changed, are to be labeled according to the behavior of a few rioting vandals and looters taking advantage of opportunity

and that lumping of entire communities into rioting foes by the police is ok?

 

Police doesn't need your respect. You must respect USA laws. You can choose country where police more loves criminals and you can live there.

[StringJunky]

In those countries the police is sticking together with criminality.

 

I'm sure there's a few corrupt policeman in each country where the police are unarmed but it's definitely not significant, otherwise it would be in the news on regular basis, certainly here in the UK. The police in the UK not being armed is a matter of hard-won and acquired mutual trust between the police and the public which has been around since the inception of our police in the 1800's. The early Peelers (first police officers) were killed much more than they are now but eventually this caused consistent outrage amongst the public and they started to trust and help the Peelers when they realised they were just as vulnerable as they were. The police are here by consent. They don't need them and they don't want them¹ as a matter of routine; Every County police force has an Armed Response Unit and that is considered quite sufficient here.

 

 

¹ A 2006 survey of 47,328 Police Federation members found 82% did not want officers to be routinely armed on duty, despite almost half saying their lives had been "in serious jeopardy" during the previous three years. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19641398

 

 

In USA (where weapon is free) police without weapon will be completely subordinate and afraid of criminals.

Obviously. An unarmed police force can only work if the general public is as well.

[DimaMazin]

I'm sure there's a few corrupt policeman in each country where the police are unarmed but it's definitely not significant, otherwise it would be in the news on regular basis, certainly here in the UK. The police in the UK not being armed is a matter of hard-won and acquired mutual trust between the police and the public which has been around since the inception of our police in the 1800's. The early Peelers (first police officers) were killed much more than they are now but eventually this caused consistent outrage amongst the public and they started to trust and help the Peelers when they realised they were just as vulnerable as they were. The police are here by consent. They don't need them and they don't want them¹ as a matter of routine; Every County police force has an Armed Response Unit and that is considered quite sufficient here.

 

UK is very very attractive to Russian thieves. I'm sure it is powerful clockwork bomb . They already work but you don't know because your money are untouched else.

Edited December 24, 2014 by DimaMazin

[imatfaal]

UK is very very attractive to Russian thieves. I'm sure it is powerful clockwork bomb . They already work but you don't know because your money are untouched else.

 

People have been saying the above for years - and yet it is always just around the corner never actually a reality; I have seen scare stories of Yardies, LA Gangs, Roma, and Albanians amongst many other groups - and in history you can replacement folk demons in fear-mongering about Jews, Catholics, Huguenots etc.

So the police are to be respected as individuals and not characterized by Wilson's behavior ,

despite their overtly collective and common and public support of Wilson's behavior

but the entire community of people who think this recent Wilson case was the last straw example of some aspects of US law enforcement that need to be changed, are to be labeled according to the behavior of a few rioting vandals and looters taking advantage of opportunity

and that lumping of entire communities into rioting foes by the police is ok?

 

 

To agree with Overtone's point above and highlight the argument that this does not seem to be about a police force showing commendable if misguided esprit de corps in rallying around a colleague who screwed up - it is about a police force that thinks that Wilson was correct, that black lives do not matter as much, and that young black males can be treated with a level of violence and intolerance which would be unacceptable for other groups.

 

The singing-along at the end is pretty disquieting

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/24/lapd-michael-brown-song_n_6376456.html

[DimaMazin]

 

People have been saying the above for years - and yet it is always just around the corner never actually a reality; I have seen scare stories of Yardies, LA Gangs, Roma, and Albanians amongst many other groups - and in history you can replacement folk demons in fear-mongering about Jews, Catholics, Huguenots etc.

You have forgotten to add USA police as folk demon.

[imatfaal]

You have forgotten to add USA police as folk demon.

 

Folk Demon is usually reserved for those outside the community who are "other" in such a way as to make them a plausible threat whilst in fact being just a convenient focus for society's otherwise inchoate and unfounded fear. For the wider community the Police are internal and the Young Black Male is the folk demon. For the underprivileged black communities in the USA the Policeman can still not be a folk demon - as the police represents a system which is a real threat and if it is real it is not a folk demon.

 

But you do make a good point -- the rent-a-gobs on both sides desperate for moments of fame, the constant media hubbub, and the stereotyping does not help the situation; the more we see everyone involved as people rather than as place-holders for racial characteristics, rather than bearers of badge, rank and gun the easier this situation will be to de-escalate.

 

However, the troubling truth is that too much of the fear felt by the black community is NOT unfounded; it is not societal fear engendered by the folk demon

[DimaMazin]

 

For the underprivileged black communities in the USA the Policeman can still not be a folk demon - as the police represents a system which is a real threat and if it is real it is not a folk demon.

 

 

Maybe you are right that russian thieves were thieves only in Russia, but I don't trust you. USA system can still not be a real threat to people who don't break their laws.

[imatfaal]

On a different but not unrelated case - another example of the police just not getting it

 

 

In the absence of the Eric Garner's death and his final words the above shirt would just be a bit odd. But - in the face of a campaign using black t-shirts amongst other things - and the fact they are designed and sold by a serving police office this seems like a deliberate and very sick claim that continuing to breathe is contingent on not breaking the law. The not so hidden message is at odds to the claim from the store selling the shirts that “For those upset, please understand when we use the slogan ‘Breathe Easy’ we are referring to knowing the police are there for you!,”

[DimaMazin]

On a different but not unrelated case - another example of the police just not getting it

 

 

In the absence of the Eric Garner's death and his final words the above shirt would just be a bit odd. But - in the face of a campaign using black t-shirts amongst other things - and the fact they are designed and sold by a serving police office this seems like a deliberate and very sick claim that continuing to breathe is contingent on not breaking the law. The not so hidden message is at odds to the claim from the store selling the shirts that “For those upset, please understand when we use the slogan ‘Breathe Easy’ we are referring to knowing the police are there for you!,”

Any man makes mistakes in his work. Don't add work for policeman. It increases a chance to do such mistake.

[swansont]

Any man makes mistakes in his work. Don't add work for policeman. It increases a chance to do such mistake.

 

 

We expect people to be held accountable for their mistakes. A big issue here is that the system, and many who run the system, do not agree that a mistake was made.