Ferguson conflict - What is the problem, and how to solve it?

[Ten oz]

I think it is worth pointing out that while the media would lead us to belief there is an ongoing war on the streets between black youths and police where police are being targeted and have no choice but to response with overwhelming force. The truth is Police haven't been safer in decades.

 

 

 

[Willie71]

Maybe you are right that russian thieves were thieves only in Russia, but I don't trust you. USA system can still not be a real threat to people who don't break their laws.

This is flat out wrong. There are 120,000 innocent people currently incarcerated according to a recent report. I could post 10 articles on innocent blacks detained in violation of their rights without committing any crime. Recently a teen was held for a month on a bogus report. He was arrested in school, and there was no evidence other than a report from a kid who was late for curfew and used the excuse he was mugged by blacks.

[overtone]

You can choose country where police more loves criminals and you can live there.

I don't have to change countries, I'm white. All I have to do is move to a white suburb or rural community right here in the US.

 

 

Maybe you are right that russian thieves were thieves only in Russia, but I don't trust you.

Russian thieves are significant sources of theft and crime outside of Russia - including the US. The violent US police are no better at stopping Russian thieves than the much less violent British, French, or German police are.

 

"USA system can still not be a real threat to people who don't break their laws. "

 

Baloney. The US system is a continual and serious threat to black men who are not breaking any laws at all. Unless you think getting braced on the sidewalk in front of your apartment, searched, thrown into a "paddy wagon" (used to be the Irish suffering this, back when the Irish were black), bail set too high, kept for several days, and pressured to plead guilty to "obstructing the sidewalk", is not a threat?

 

That kind of thing can easily cost someone their job. It has, hundreds if not thousands of times in the past few years, in New York City alone.

 

But this bad treatment of the innocent, especially the innocent young black male, is not the core of the problem. The core of the problem is the continual bad treatment of the suspect or guilty young black male - much worse than the suspect or guilty young white male suffers - and the damage done to the black communities thereby.

 

The police are not defending the black community in Ferguson - or in New York City, Philadelphia, St Louis, etc. They are damaging it.

Edited December 25, 2014 by overtone

[DimaMazin]

 

 

We expect people to be held accountable for their mistakes. A big issue here is that the system, and many who run the system, do not agree that a mistake was made.

If price of the mistakes is 5000$ then I recognize the mistake. If price of the mistake is 100,000$ then I don't recognize it too.

 

This is flat out wrong. There are 120,000 innocent people currently incarcerated according to a recent report. I could post 10 articles on innocent blacks detained in violation of their rights without committing any crime. Recently a teen was held for a month on a bogus report. He was arrested in school, and there was no evidence other than a report from a kid who was late for curfew and used the excuse he was mugged by blacks.

We are on scientific forum. Does police have device for definition of color of skin?Do you have such device?How can I define my skin color?I already know : if USA police has bad relation to me then I am black, if USA police has good relation to me then I am white.

[swansont]

If price of the mistakes is 5000$ then I recognize the mistake. If price of the mistake is 100,000$ then I don't recognize it too.

 

 

I have no idea what you're getting at here.

[Ten oz]

If price of the mistakes is 5000$ then I recognize the mistake. If price of the mistake is 100,000$ then I don't recognize it too.

 

We are on scientific forum. Does police have device for definition of color of skin?Do you have such device?How can I define my skin color?I already know : if USA police has bad relation to me then I am black, if USA police has good relation to me then I am white.

Yes, this is a science forum and a comparative look at policing in the United States vs other countries reveals that the United States has a far more intrusive system. The Police shoot and kill far more people per capita than any country in the E.U.. The United States has far more prison inmates per capita than any country in the E.U.. Yet there is not far more nor are the police in far more dangerous than countries in the E.U.. Then there is the fact that blacks make up disproportional percentage of those killed or arrested within the United States system which is provable bigger and more active than elsewhere. It becomes undeniable that there is something going on. It is undeniable the U.S. system is more harsh on blacks than what other "free" people worldwide are experiencing.

[overtone]

 

 

We are on scientific forum. Does police have device for definition of color of skin?

Yes. It is called binocular color vision.

[DimaMazin]

Yes. It is called binocular color vision.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Scale+of+color+of+a+skin&rlz=1C1CHMZ_ruRU379RU382&espv=2&biw=1008&bih=610&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=fHycVNe2PIfMyAO9m4CwCg&ved=0CCsQsAQ#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=Qj1oZowtXxL4ZM%253A%3BwTNoancwvx9gdM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstudioknow.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2011%252F07%252Fskin-tone-chart.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fhistorum.com%252Feuropean-history%252F42179-decrypters-african-knight-medieval-britain-4.html%3B600%3B600

Do people with which skin colors (in your statistics) have bad treatment in police?Show what is the scale of skin color what policemen use. Show the instruction for the sorting of arrested persons due to attributes of skin color.

[iNow]

Do people with which skin colors (in your statistics) have bad treatment in police?Show what is the scale of skin color what policemen use. Show the instruction for the sorting of arrested persons due to attributes of skin color.

It's often helpful to read a thread before you comment to it. These questions have largely been covered. These are just from me. There are also others:

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/85083-ferguson-conflict-what-is-the-problem-and-how-to-solve-it/page-3#entry823232

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/85083-ferguson-conflict-what-is-the-problem-and-how-to-solve-it/page-4#entry825129

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/85083-ferguson-conflict-what-is-the-problem-and-how-to-solve-it/page-4#entry826530

[DimaMazin]

It's often helpful to read a thread before you comment to it. These questions have largely been covered. These are just from me. There are also others:

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/85083-ferguson-conflict-what-is-the-problem-and-how-to-solve-it/page-3#entry823232

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/85083-ferguson-conflict-what-is-the-problem-and-how-to-solve-it/page-4#entry825129

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/85083-ferguson-conflict-what-is-the-problem-and-how-to-solve-it/page-4#entry826530

There is nothing what I have asked.

In Russia a belonging to dark diasporas gives benefit for the criminal. It doesn't reduce quantity of crimes.

[iNow]

More here, this time specifically around the issue of implicit bias and how we are quite often not conscious of these cognitive processes occurring within us:

 

http://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias

 

To understand the gaping racial disparities in criminal justice, it helps to understand implicit bias. As Vox's German Lopez has explained:

 

 

Part of the problem is outright racism among some judges and cops, socioeconomic disparities that can drive more crime, and drug laws that disproportionately affect black Americans. But the other explanation is that cops, like everyone else, carry this implicit bias, which experts agree affects how they police people of different races. Since these are the people who carry out the initial steps of law enforcement, this bias might launch a cascading effect of racial disparities that starts with simple arrests and ends in prison or death.

 

These are a few ways implicit bias has been found to operate at every level of the criminal-justice system:

• Studies have shown that a person's level of implicit racial bias predicts the amount of shooter bias meaning, how much easier it is to shoot African Americans compared with white people in a video-game situation. And when researchers at the University of Colorado at Boulder and California State University at Northridge reviewed a decade of empirical evidence about cops and implicit bias in 2012, they found police officers seem to possess implicit bias that might make them more likely to shoot black suspects than white ones.
• Writing for the Yale Law Journal in 2013, L. Song Richardson and Phillip Atiba Goff demonstrated that the triage practices by which defense attorneys accept their cases can be informed by implicit racial bias and argued that the overwhelming case loads and time constraints create an environment in which implicit bias has an outsized influence on judgments.
• In a 2013 Law and Society Review article, Casey Reynolds examined how jurors unknowingly enter the courtroom with a set of inferences informed by implicit bias that can determine how they decide what constitutes "reasonable doubt."
• In a 2013 article for Court Review, Kimberly Papillion addressed the idea that well-meaning judges can have neurophysiological responses that activate implicit racial biases, concluding that "Assuming that judges can simply try harder to be fair, take more time when making decision, or utilize their egalitarian value systems to eliminate bias in their decision-making process is naïve. The solutions should be tailored to the neurophysiologic reactions that infuse bias into the sentencing decisions."

Edited December 26, 2014 by iNow

[Ten oz]

Some people would dismiss iNow's numbers by saying that blacks are arrested and imprisoned at higher rates because they commit more crime. Yet a look at the most crime ridden states in the United Stated does not reflect direct relationship between crime and race.

Top 5 States most crime:

1 - Tennessee 17% black (10th ranked black population in the country)

2 - Nevada 9% black (23rd ranked black population in the country)

3 - Alaska 4% black (34th ranked black population in country)

4 - New Mexico 2.5% black (39th ranked black population in country)

5 - South Carolina 28% black (5th ranked black population in country)

 

Crime by state - http://www.securitymagazine.com/articles/85649-fbi-releases-figures-for-top-10-states-for-violent-crime

State demographics - http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/index.html

States with most blacks - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_African-American_population

 

 

The 3 states with the highest population of blacks are (in order) Mississippi, Louisiana, and Georgia. None of the three are in the top ten states for crime statistics. Despite that all 3 are in the top ten for incarceration rate with Louisiana and Mississippi being #1 and #2. There are only 2 states that are even on the both lists (crime rate and incarceration rate) Florida and South Carolina. So there isn't even a direct connection between crime rates and incarceration rates.

incarceration rate by state - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_incarceration_rate

 

Of course for the sake of making an argument some might try to put the goal post on wheels and demand a comparison between counties, cities, individual neighborhoods, specific city streets, or even specific housing complexes in an attempt to find favorable numbers. However if there is a direct relationship statistically that relationship would need to be consistently shown across the country and not merely in a handful of carefully selected spots.

[DimaMazin]

More here, this time specifically around the issue of implicit bias and how we are quite often not conscious of these cognitive processes occurring within us:

 

http://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias

 

Behaviour creates bias. You have no obvious proof that skin color creates the bias therefore you call it by implicit bias.

 

Some people would dismiss iNow's numbers by saying that blacks are arrested and imprisoned at higher rates because they commit more crime. Yet a look at the most crime ridden states in the United Stated does not reflect direct relationship between crime and race.

Top 5 States most crime:

1 - Tennessee 17% black (10th ranked black population in the country)

2 - Nevada 9% black (23rd ranked black population in the country)

3 - Alaska 4% black (34th ranked black population in country)

4 - New Mexico 2.5% black (39th ranked black population in country)

5 - South Carolina 28% black (5th ranked black population in country)

 

Crime by state - http://www.securitymagazine.com/articles/85649-fbi-releases-figures-for-top-10-states-for-violent-crime

State demographics - http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/index.html

States with most blacks - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_African-American_population

 

 

The 3 states with the highest population of blacks are (in order) Mississippi, Louisiana, and Georgia. None of the three are in the top ten states for crime statistics. Despite that all 3 are in the top ten for incarceration rate with Louisiana and Mississippi being #1 and #2. There are only 2 states that are even on the both lists (crime rate and incarceration rate) Florida and South Carolina. So there isn't even a direct connection between crime rates and incarceration rates.

incarceration rate by state - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_incarceration_rate

 

Of course for the sake of making an argument some might try to put the goal post on wheels and demand a comparison between counties, cities, individual neighborhoods, specific city streets, or even specific housing complexes in an attempt to find favorable numbers. However if there is a direct relationship statistically that relationship would need to be consistently shown across the country and not merely in a handful of carefully selected spots.

Arrested and imprisoned usually made more crimes. Maybe he is imprisoned for crime not accomplished by him. Here bad police work is. Good police work can imprison more people.

[overtone]

 

 

Do people with which skin colors (in your statistics) have bad treatment in police?

Yes.

 

You have no obvious proof that skin color creates the bias therefore you call it by implicit bias.

We have overwhelming evidence that skin color triggers bias in many people unaware of their skin color bias.

 

 

 

Arrested and imprisoned usually made more crimes.

No, the data show that is not true.

Edited December 26, 2014 by overtone

[iNow]

"Racism doesn't usually look like someone shouting slurs, it's looks like people eagerly looking for a reason why a black kid deserved to die."

 

@LouSchu 2:52am - 24 Dec 14

https://mobile.twitter.com/LouSchu/status/547676284290334720

[swansont]

Behaviour creates bias. You have no obvious proof that skin color creates the bias therefore you call it by implicit bias.

 

Oh good lord, really? If you're that unaware of US history, perhaps it's better to just observe and learn.

[DimaMazin]

No, the data show that is not true.

 

Do you have data that all participants of robberies in Ferguson were arrested? If you have not the data then it proves that I am right.

 

"Racism doesn't usually look like someone shouting slurs, it's looks like people eagerly looking for a reason why a black kid deserved to die."

 

Do you think that racism exists only in white society?

 

 

Oh good lord, really? If you're that unaware of US history, perhaps it's better to just observe and learn.

The past isn't a present.

[swansont]

The past isn't a present.

 

Society doesn't change overnight.

[DimaMazin]

 

Society doesn't change overnight.

Seems black society doesn't change at all.

[iNow]

Do you think that racism exists only in white society?

No.

[swansont]

Seems black society doesn't change at all.

 

 

Huh? I think you have that exactly backwards. This is mainly about how others treat blacks.

[DimaMazin]

 

 

Huh? I think you have that exactly backwards. This is mainly about how others treat blacks.

No. I think they have racial prejudices too.

[iNow]

Everybody has various prejudices. I even shared a link describing exactly this subject above (the one you neg repped). What has inclined you now to think this required clarification among participants in this thread?

[DimaMazin]

Everybody has various prejudices. I even shared a link describing exactly this subject above (the one you neg repped). What has inclined you now to think this required clarification among participants in this thread?

Your charge was unilateral. Swansont has repeated the unilateral charge.

[swansont]

No. I think they have racial prejudices too.

 

Yes. I said mainly. Whatever racial prejudices they might have is pretty much moot within the context of this discussion. We're talking about the prejudices that are behind causing black people to be arrested at twice the rate of whites, and be the victim of arrest-related homicides at an even higher rate than that (the FBI stats iNow posted a day ago)