Ferguson conflict - What is the problem, and how to solve it?

[Ten oz]

This site tends to lean liberal. If things are bad for blacks it is because we have mistreated them and it is our job to fix it for them.

 

Other sites tend to lean conservative. If things are bad for blacks it is because they take no personal responsibility to get a job, vote, etc.

 

From my perspective it a combination of the two. Government and individuals need to share the responsibility. It may have been institutionally hard for blacks to vote in the past due to their race, but when it comes to voting now their race rarely comes into play. If you can be organized enough to plan protests and have the time to march and rally, then you are capable of voting too.

 

If you are not able to vote because the system is getting in your way, then I am onboard and it is 'our' responsibility to fix that. But if you are able to vote but choose not to, then while you may have my sympathy that we put you in a lower socio-economic tier, I don't have much sympathy for the fact that your elected officials are still predominately white in your predominately black community.

 

On liberal sites the conservatives think I am on their side. On the conservative sites the liberals think I am on their side. But I think I am on the side of the centrists.

 

66% of eligible black voters turn out and vote national. In Ferguson specifically 54% of eligible blacks voted which was only a single percent less than the white participation which was 55% of eligible. However local positions are not on the ballot along side national election. The local position elections are held on odd numbered year and voter turnout across the board plummets. in the 2013 election for municipal positions saw only 17% of eligible whites and 4% of eligible blacks. This drop in off year elections equals a 52% of the total turn out being white and 47% being black. So it isn't as if black people aren't participating. Any argument that labels blacks collectively and describes a behavior unique to that racial label is an inaccurate one. The majority of blacks do vote nationally and voter participation falls in off year elections for every other demographic.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/08/15/how-ferguson-exposes-the-racial-bias-in-local-elections/

 

It is no secret that conservatives do better when less people vote. Republicans have only won the popular vote once in the last 6 national elections. Another way of putting that is to say republicans have only won the popular once since the average aged American, 35 yrs old for male or 38 years old for female, has been eligible to vote. In that same time frame Republicans have made gains in 4 of the last 6 midterm elections when turnout is dramatically reduced. So it is no wild conspiracy theory to say Republicans prefer low turn. Especially in minority communities which are far less likely to support them.

"In the three states with the longest lines in 2012, precincts in minority neighborhoods were systematically deprived of the resources they needed to make voting operate smoothly — specifically, voting machines and poll workers, according to the report by the Brennan Center for Justice. The report’s data show the growing need for federal supervision of voting rights, though ensuring supervision is harder than ever since the Supreme Court removed the teeth from the Voting Rights Act of 1965 last year.

The report looked at Maryland, South Carolina and Florida, where many voters waited for hours to cast a vote in the 2012 presidential election. In all three, minority precincts were more likely to have had long lines. In South Carolina, the 10 precincts with the longest waits had more than twice the percentage of black registered voters, on average, than the rest of the state"

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/opinion/long-lines-at-minority-polling-places.html?_r=0

[zapatos]

Then there is of course the Good Ol' Patriots working their tails off to put the kibosh on poor and minority voters under the guise of voter fraud which does not exist. Missouri is among the states so disposed.

 

UFO Sightings Are More Common Than Voter Fraud

The GOP says election fraud is rampant. A close look at the numbers shows there's no evidence of that.

Why did you bring this up?

 

Are these undefined efforts in Missouri to restrict voter fraud the reason Ferguson has white leadership? Are they justification for people not taking personal responsibility? Did they cause confusion on the part of black voters so that they now do not know how to cast a ballot? How many legitimate voters will be disenfranchised if Missouri passes their proposed laws.

 

I get the same feeling of biased debate from the left as I get from the right. The only difference is that here no one calls me names.

[Ten oz]

@ Acme, good post. I had considered going in that direction but want to avoid an all out voter suppression debate. I am holding out hope this discussion finds it way back to police violence at some point.

[Acme]

Why did you [Acme] bring this [voter restriction effort] up?

...

Because more minorities than whites are poor.

[zapatos]

Because more minorities than whites are poor.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Does what you said have anything to do with the current line of discussion we are following or was it more of a random post on voting rights?

[Acme]

@ Acme, good post. I had considered going in that direction but want to avoid an all out voter suppression debate. I am holding out hope this discussion finds it way back to police violence at some point.

Thanks. I was not trying to steer away from the violence aspect, rather address some of the racial bias issues being introduced. The police violence, i.e. violence by police directed toward minorities in Ferguson, is simply a specific example of a wider general problem. While it hasn't received the national media attention that Ferguson has, Portland Oregon right across the river from me has similar problems/incidents that have brought attention from federal investigators. The Portland police not only kill unarmed racial minorities, but unarmed mentally unstable folks of all races.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Does what you said have anything to do with the current line of discussion we are following or was it more of a random post on voting rights?

It has to do with the current line of argument, yes. The point was being made that blacks in Ferguson could vote in a way that balanced their police force racially, but if the blacks are being influenced in a way that limits their voting then their ability to influence the police force is limited. Whether that influence is codified as in voter ID laws or by districting or by un-codified means such as sundown 'rules' the intent is clear. Edited January 2, 2015 by Acme

[zapatos]

It has to do with the current line of argument, yes. The point was being made that blacks in Ferguson could vote in a way that balanced their police force racially, but if the blacks are being influenced in a way that limits their voting then their ability to influence the police force is limited. Whether that influence is codified as in voter ID laws or by districting or by un-codified means such as sundown 'rules' the intent is clear.

Okay, then back to my original questions:

 

Are these undefined efforts in Missouri to restrict voter fraud the reason Ferguson has white leadership? Are they justification for people not taking personal responsibility? Did they cause confusion on the part of black voters so that they now do not know how to cast a ballot? How many legitimate voters will be disenfranchised if Missouri passes their proposed laws.

[Acme]

Okay, then back to my original questions:

 

Are these undefined efforts in Missouri to restrict voter fraud the reason Ferguson has white leadership? Are they justification for people not taking personal responsibility? Did they cause confusion on the part of black voters so that they now do not know how to cast a ballot? How many legitimate voters will be disenfranchised if Missouri passes their proposed laws.

I don't know offhand and I am disinclined to go look it up for you. If you're really interested in the whys and wherefores of the ID law efforts, Goggle is your friend. It may be an issue for another thread. Anyway, I have followed the news stories and this thread and now put in my penny's worth. I won't be flame-baited into yet another political pissing match thank you very much.

[zapatos]

I don't know offhand and I am disinclined to go look it up for you. If you're really interested in the whys and wherefores of the ID law efforts, Goggle is your friend. It may be an issue for another thread. Anyway, I have followed the news stories and this thread and now put in my penny's worth. I won't be flame-baited into yet another political pissing match thank you very much.

If you don't know then why did you bring it up? If you are using it to support your argument then the onus is on you to explain it. Asking me to support your argument for you is ridiculous.

 

As it is you appear to just have thrown a red herring out there in the hopes that a generic 'Republicans are Bad' post would somehow prove blacks in Ferguson are somehow unable to fully exercise their right to vote.

 

Adding to that the insulting nature of this latest post is really too much. I don't believe I've earned it.

[MigL]

Sorry Ten oz, but you're still misunderstanding my position.

I am not arguing for personal responsibility, although that can never be a bad thing ( I agree Zapatos )

I am arguing for a different kind of institutional change.

I don't want to see cops turn a blind eye to groups of young men loitering in the streets, prostitutes hanging around outside my house, or petty crime. No matter if its committed by whites, blacks or in-betweens.

The change I want to see is opportunities provided to the disadvantaged, to lift them out of that kind of existence. I want to see black ( or Hispanics or any other American ) teens stay in school, get an education, get good jobs, have families, and put their kids through school. Something which we all take for granted.

 

The only place I would argue for personal responsibility is the abnormal amounts of absentee fathers in the black American community

As for states introducing voting 'regulations', I am going to generalize here, so take this with a grain of skeptical salt.

Here in Canada most immigrants and lower income groups vote Liberal, the majority of the middle class vote Conservative, and the rich are in government ( Ha ! ).

If I extrapolate this to the US, then these voter regulations would be seen as 'voter restrictions' to Democrats, and as 'fraud restrictions' to Republicans.

Its all in one's point of view, but I expect the 'truth' is somewhere in the middle.

[overtone]

You are exactly the kind of person I was talking about in my previous post. I do not need to understand how hard it was for blacks to vote in the '60s to expect that 50 years later they either manage to get to the polls or not complain who their representatives are.

It's not hard to vote. In the 2012 Presidential election a higher percentage of blacks voted than did whites.

Your presumption that effective efforts to suppress black voter turnout ended sometime in the 60s are naive to the point of wtf.

 

Poor black people face particular and focused obstacles when they try to vote, some famous ones listed above, others well known to all, some traditional, others new and innovative. Of course they should overcome these obstacles and vote anyway, regardless of what their parents did or anyone they know, regardless of how much trouble it is for them, regardless of whether they have a decent candidate to vote for, regardless of whether voting has ever done them any good, and so forth. But human nature says they won't, and nobody else facing their obstacles does, so what is the argument of personal responsibility here?

 

Is there a larger or more flagrant neglect of personal responsibility than that visible in the white voters and governance of Ferguson? They have let their town go to hell in a handbasket, and they seem to be blaming everyone except themselves.

 

 

The only place I would argue for personal responsibility is the abnormal amounts of absentee fathers in the black American community Many years ago I was reading essays on the topic of racial hiring discrimination having undermined nuclear family structure among US blacks. Black men who couldn't get decent work tended to abandon their kids or get evicted from their family dwellings, was the finding being discussed, and it was affecting the social norm of child raising in entire communities (black fatherhood already being on shaky and troubled ground for obvious reasons).

 

The interesting point one author made was that historically in the US hard times hit the blacks first - that one can view them as canaries in the coal mines, in a sense, for sociological trouble and trend in the US. Something to do with them having no buffers, no savings, no community wealth, few longterm stable communities. So, he said, we should expect single motherhood to increase sharply among white people, as young white men in their turn lose the ability to support families.

 

Prescient, that. And nothing about personal responsibility was involved in the analysis.

 

 

- - -

then these voter regulations would be seen as 'voter restrictions' to Democrats, and as 'fraud restrictions' to Republicans.

Its all in one's point of view, but I expect the 'truth' is somewhere in the middle.

You expect wrongly. The truth is aligned completely with the Democrats: they are all voter restrictions, not fraud restrictions - and the Republicans are dealing in lies and bullshit: there is no significant fraud being restricted.

 

The most significant voting frauds, for decades now, have been Republican operations - gerrymanderings, voting machine oddities, voter registration list "mistakes", ballot printing screwups, etc.

 

 

How many legitimate voters will be disenfranchised if Missouri passes their proposed laws. Counting registered voters only, the guess is around 220, 000: http://www.msnbc.com/melissa-harris-perry/report-warns-voter-suppression-missouri. If all people otherwise qualified to register and vote were counted, that would be expected to increase substantially. Edited January 2, 2015 by overtone

[MigL]

With regard to your comments about black absent fathers...

What kind of institutional change am I arguing for ?

( If you've forgotten go back and re-read my previous post )

 

As for your opinion on voter restrictions, what is your political affiliation ?

You see voting as a right, others see it as a privilege and want proof of entitlement, such as ID, residence, etc.

[iNow]

As for your opinion on voter restrictions, what is your political affiliation ?

You see voting as a right, others see it as a privilege and want proof of entitlement, such as ID, residence, etc.

This needs to be explored. Please anyone interested or willing to share their voice jump over here to do so: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/87176-a-right-or-a-privilege-voting-in-constitutional-republics/

[Ten oz]

Sorry Ten oz, but you're still misunderstanding my position.

I am not arguing for personal responsibility, although that can never be a bad thing ( I agree Zapatos )

I am arguing for a different kind of institutional change.

1 -I don't want to see cops turn a blind eye to groups of young men loitering in the streets, prostitutes hanging around outside my house, or petty crime. No matter if its committed by whites, blacks or in-betweens.

The change I want to see is opportunities provided to the disadvantaged, to lift them out of that kind of existence. I want to see black ( or Hispanics or any other American ) teens stay in school, get an education, get good jobs, have families, and put their kids through school. Something which we all take for granted.

 

The only place I would argue for personal responsibility is the abnormal amounts of absentee fathers in the black American community

2 - As for states introducing voting 'regulations', I am going to generalize here, so take this with a grain of skeptical salt.

Here in Canada most immigrants and lower income groups vote Liberal, the majority of the middle class vote Conservative, and the rich are in government ( Ha ! ).

If I extrapolate this to the US, then these voter regulations would be seen as 'voter restrictions' to Democrats, and as 'fraud restrictions' to Republicans.

Its all in one's point of view, but I expect the 'truth' is somewhere in the middle.

1 - You have not yet presented any information that show those things are a significant drivers of police interaction with citizens. The single greatest driver of police interaction is vehicle stops. If I recall correctly you brought loitering and prostitution in to this discussion as a mean of implying that poor people bring police interaction on themselves with their behavior. Your example are off base.

"The most common reason for contact with the police is being a driver in a traffic stop. In 2008, an estimated 44% of face-to-face contacts that U.S. residents had with police occurred for this reason. About half of all traffic stops that year resulted in a traffic ticket. Approximately 5% of all stopped drivers were searched by police during a traffic stop.

Black drivers (12.3%) were about three times as likely as white drivers (3.9%) and about two times as likely as Hispanic drivers (5.8%) to be searched during a traffic stop in 2008."

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=702

 

2 - This voting stuff was brought into the discussion following a comment made about the fact that whites often hold positions of influence and authority in minority neighborhoods but the opposite is never true. The following exchanges initially were attempts to explain why by getting off into the weeds about who votes. Ultimately the why of the thing doesn't change that fact that it happens. Whites are the overwhelming majority in the United States and that comes with certain privileges whether people choose to acknowledges those privileges or not.

[MigL]

Very well, if you want to adhere strictly to the OP...

Mr. Brown did NOT come in contact with Officer Wilson during a traffic stop.

He was either walking ( or hanging out ) along with a buddy when he was approached by Wilson's cruiser ( IIRC its been a while, and I don't wanna look it up ).

So what do your statistics about traffic stops have to do with what we are discussing ?

 

As for the voting issue, Inow has been kind enough to open a new thread to discuss that aspect.

[Willie71]

Sorry Ten oz, but you're still misunderstanding my position.

I am not arguing for personal responsibility, although that can never be a bad thing ( I agree Zapatos )

I am arguing for a different kind of institutional change.

I don't want to see cops turn a blind eye to groups of young men loitering in the streets, prostitutes hanging around outside my house, or petty crime. No matter if its committed by whites, blacks or in-betweens.

The change I want to see is opportunities provided to the disadvantaged, to lift them out of that kind of existence. I want to see black ( or Hispanics or any other American ) teens stay in school, get an education, get good jobs, have families, and put their kids through school. Something which we all take for granted.

 

The only place I would argue for personal responsibility is the abnormal amounts of absentee fathers in the black American community

As for states introducing voting 'regulations', I am going to generalize here, so take this with a grain of skeptical salt.

Here in Canada most immigrants and lower income groups vote Liberal, the majority of the middle class vote Conservative, and the rich are in government ( Ha ! ).

If I extrapolate this to the US, then these voter regulations would be seen as 'voter restrictions' to Democrats, and as 'fraud restrictions' to Republicans.

Its all in one's point of view, but I expect the 'truth' is somewhere in the middle.

People in health care and education tend to vote liberal, where those in the oil patch or other booming businesses (construction for example) tend to vote conservative. There is a trend that follows education. The higher your education, the more you lean liberal, in a general sense.

Very well, if you want to adhere strictly to the OP...

Mr. Brown did NOT come in contact with Officer Wilson during a traffic stop.

He was either walking ( or hanging out ) along with a buddy when he was approached by Wilson's cruiser ( IIRC its been a while, and I don't wanna look it up ).

So what do your statistics about traffic stops have to do with what we are discussing ?

 

As for the voting issue, Inow has been kind enough to open a new thread to discuss that aspect.

Wilson backed up with screeching tires, apparently after the kids lipped him off. This is where the stories diverge. In Wilson's story, Brown attacked him, in the other version, Wilson grabbed at Brown while Brown tried to break free. It seems Wilson intended to set Brown straight and demand his authority be respected, a very silly idea, considering the history in Ferguson. Edited January 2, 2015 by Willie71

[zapatos]

It seems Wilson intended to set Brown straight and demand his authority be respected, a very silly idea, considering the history in Ferguson.

If I had to guess that sounds the most plausible to me. Followed by escalation with neither one backing down. Both a couple of dumb asses in my opinion. Wilson for not being more professional and Brown for arguing with someone carrying a gun. Finally ending in a tragedy that never had to happen.

[iNow]

An interesting read, not specific to any individual claim or question in this thread, but instead an exploration of just how insidious racism and discrimination seem to be. The focus is much more empirical than anecdotal, uses data from varied sources and several clever workarounds to control for confounding variables like poverty, educational opportunity, and region or social group.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/upshot/the-measuring-sticks-of-racial-bias-.html

The Measuring Sticks of Racial Bias

JAN. 3, 2015

[Willie71]

An interesting read, not specific to any individual claim or question in this thread, but instead an exploration of just how insidious racism and discrimination seem to be. The focus is much more empirical than anecdotal, uses data from varied sources and several clever workarounds to control for confounding variables like poverty, educational opportunity, and region or social group.http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/upshot/the-measuring-sticks-of-racial-bias-.htmlThe Measuring Sticks of Racial BiasJAN. 3, 2015

Excellent summary. I was involved in a lit review about 15 years ago regarding the discrimination our First Nations experience, and the research remains consistent. It's amazing how many people call this research bullshit.

[Ten oz]

An interesting read, not specific to any individual claim or question in this thread, but instead an exploration of just how insidious racism and discrimination seem to be. The focus is much more empirical than anecdotal, uses data from varied sources and several clever workarounds to control for confounding variables like poverty, educational opportunity, and region or social group.http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/upshot/the-measuring-sticks-of-racial-bias-.htmlThe Measuring Sticks of Racial BiasJAN. 3, 2015

Good post. Despite research repeatedly finding that blacks have an extra burden in society that makes employment, housing, education, and etc more difficult many still choose to blame the victim. Personal responsibility and questions about bringing it on themselves are still considered reasonable arguments when discussing statistical inequalities. Those arguments ingore history and rely an idea that things are equal which they are provably not. It doesn't end at race either. Tall people are treated better than short people, attractive people better than ugly people, rich better than poor, and etc, etc, etc. The playing field isn't equal.

What would your answer be to the question...

" do socially and economically disadvantaged people bring police attention to themselves ?"

 

I think you would have to answer yes.

 

While all you say is true, please address my three examples.

If you watch any episode of 'Cops', you'll see the amount of attention these three examples get.

 

Do affluent people commit B+E as much as disadvantaged people ?

Do affluent people prostitute themselves as much as the disadvantaged ( other than in Hollywood ) ?

Do the affluent join social clubs or street gangs ?

 

Very well, if you want to adhere strictly to the OP...

Mr. Brown did NOT come in contact with Officer Wilson during a traffic stop.

He was either walking ( or hanging out ) along with a buddy when he was approached by Wilson's cruiser ( IIRC its been a while, and I don't wanna look it up ).

So what do your statistics about traffic stops have to do with what we are discussing ?

 

You asked the above questions. The point of the statistical info on traffic stops was to show that your examples are not amongst the most common reasons for police interaction. You asserted "I think you would have to answer yes" regarding your question of bringing it on themselves but then failed to support that position with anything but anacdotal observations from the TV show Cops. That is what the stats on traffic stops have to do with this discussion. The stats were directed at your assertions, not the OP. However your assertions directly relate to the OP because you are essentially asking if Brown, Gardner, Rice, and black victims of excessive force by the police overall don't "bring it on themselves".

[zapatos]

Good post. Despite research repeatedly finding that blacks have an extra burden in society that makes employment, housing, education, and etc more difficult many still choose to blame the victim.

Has anyone posting here done that?

 

Personal responsibility and questions about bringing it on themselves are still considered reasonable arguments when discussing statistical inequalities.

Unless you have shown that personal responsibility is not a factor then why is it unreasonable to discuss it?

[Ten oz]

Unless you have shown that personal responsibility is not a factor then why is it unreasonable to discuss it?

iNow's link provides several examples of people being discriminated against under controlled conditions where personal behavior has been removed from the equation.

[zapatos]

iNow's link provides several examples of people being discriminated against under controlled conditions where personal behavior has been removed from the equation.

Agreed. It shows that people are discriminated against due to racism. But it does not show that personal responsibility is not a factor in some person's or some group's circumstances.

 

I'd go so far as to say that the majority of people; you, me, or anyone else, could improve our circumstances if we worked harder.

[DimaMazin]

Good post. Despite research repeatedly finding that blacks have an extra burden in society that makes employment, housing, education, and etc more difficult many still choose to blame the victim. Personal responsibility and questions about bringing it on themselves are still considered reasonable arguments when discussing statistical inequalities. Those arguments ingore history and rely an idea that things are equal which they are provably not. It doesn't end at race either. Tall people are treated better than short people, attractive people better than ugly people, rich better than poor, and etc, etc, etc. The playing field isn't equal.

 

Laws are the same for anyone. When you want to create equal playing field then you should pay the expenses. Revolts and murders of policemen don't make money.

[Willie71]

iNow's link provides several examples of people being discriminated against under controlled conditions where personal behavior has been removed from the equation.

You are half way there. When the table is so stacked, there are a number of cultural and psychological effects that makes class jumping nearly impossible. There is a recipe that seems to come together for a few people, but it doesn't for most.