Ferguson conflict - What is the problem, and how to solve it?

[imatfaal]

Why is the East side of any city always the most disadvantaged or run-down ?

Has anyone else noted this correlation ?

 

Not when I lived in New York I didn't! Although most of my life I have been in London where it definitely applies

I have actually heard that it is to do with average and common prevailing winds in the Northern Hemisphere - and fresh clean country air compared to smelly dirty preused air. But have never actually checked the idea out

[overtone]

Why is the East side of any city always the most disadvantaged or run-down ?

In the US there's an obvious possible factor combination - most cities were founded on the east bank of a river, where the westward traveling pioneers ran up against the barrier. The expansion westward from these early shacks and rough commercial setups was driven by increasing prosperity - ferry service, then bridges and roads, train service, etc. So the prospering left their early digs and chaotic jury-rigged commercial neighborhoods and settled across the river - west - in nice new houses and organized development on open ground.

 

We can check that by comparing US cities that were not founded on the east bank of a river by people moving west. Minneapolis, say, or Saint Paul, or the two considered together. And we do see that in both of these cities, or the two as a unit, the slum areas are generally north of the central city, rather than east.

 

Although the prevailing wind hypothesis also makes sense, in reverse: one does not want to live upwind in a northern prairie city. That fresh winter air is from the Arctic circle.

Edited January 22, 2015 by overtone

[iNow]

Why is the East side of any city always the most disadvantaged or run-down ?

To me, confirmation bias seems most likely.

[Ten oz]

To me, confirmation bias seems most likely.

Considering the variety of information presented throughout this thread from discrimination against ethnic names on resumes to searches performed during vehicle stops it is rather apparent that bias exists. All the other side of this debate does is question and challange. No data indicating non bias. Just arguments against the relevance of what is presented by other. What "if" used as though it shares equal weight with what "is".

[zapatos]

Considering the variety of information presented throughout this thread from discrimination against ethnic names on resumes to searches performed during vehicle stops it is rather apparent that bias exists. All the other side of this debate does is question and challange. No data indicating non bias. Just arguments against the relevance of what is presented by other. What "if" used as though it shares equal weight with what "is".

iNow was referring to confirmation bias, not racial bias. Confirmation bias can apply equally to both sides of the debate.

[iNow]

+ I was referring specifically to the idea that poor neighborhoods seem to be predominantly located on the eastern side of cities. Even a brief examination quickly shows plethora counter-examples.

[zapatos]

And to take it a step further that map you showed indicated that the North side of the city was poorer, not the East side.

 

The city of St. Louis is on the East side of that map. On the west side of the map you are seeing St. Louis County, Jefferson County, and the rest of the St. Louis Metropolitan area.

 

If you concentrate on the right half of the map you'll see that the North side of the city is the poorer side.

[iNow]

https://youtube.com/watch?v=NVAZp1j0tKc

.

 

Similar themes were touched upon yesterday by President Obama during his speech commemorating the 50th anniversary of Bloody Sunday in Selma, Alabama.

[StringJunky]

...Similar themes were touched upon yesterday by President Obama during his speech commemorating the 50th anniversary of Bloody Sunday in Selma, Alabama.

What struck me watching Obama is that Americans are as black as they are white. It was nice to see the archetypal white Republican Bushs' exchange with the Obamas' at the end. However Obama is viewed in the future, his election was an important landmark in US history. Symbolism iis an important feature of what defines a nation in the long term and that is what he has done: become a symbol of the bridge between American ethnicities.

Edited March 8, 2015 by StringJunky

[iNow]

It was nice to see the archetypal white Republican Bushs' exchange with the Obamas' at the end.

Speaking of symbolism, only one republican (other than Bush who is no longer in office) bothered to show up.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/obama-join-bloody-sunday-anniversary-selma-29461004

Selma's fire department estimated the crowd reached 40,000. Former President George W. Bush shared the platform. Republican Congressional leaders were mostly absent

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/06/politics/selma-anniversary-republicans/

Spokesmen for McCarthy and Scalise did not return requests for comment, though Boehner spokesman Michael Steel confirmed that no one from the top GOP leadership will be in Selma.

 

The absence of key GOP lawmakers at such a significant anniversary is notable for a party that is seeking to expand its base. It comes just months after third-ranking House Republican Rep. Steve Scalise of Louisiana was embroiled in a controversy over speaking to a group of white supremacists in 2002 and as efforts to revive key provisions of the Voting Rights Act have stalled in Congress.

[StringJunky]

Speaking of symbolism, only one republican (other than Bush who is no longer in office) bothered to show up.

I recognised when Obama first became president that Bush was very gracious in defeat and I think he understood the symbolic importance of the occasion. His presence today confirms to me that he knows when to put politics aside and be an active part of defintive moments like this. I think he's choughed to bits that America has broken that taboo.

Here's a transcript of his speech if people have problems with watching video, lacking time or struggle with their hearing.

[Ten oz]

What struck me watching Obama is that Americans are as black as they are white. It was nice to see the archetypal white Republican Bushs' exchange with the Obamas' at the end. However Obama is viewed in the future, his election was an important landmark in US history. Symbolism iis an important feature of what defines a nation in the long term and that is what he has done: become a symbol of the bridge between American ethnicities.

The bridge between ethnicities because oneside has invested so much time and energy building moats. Things like woman suffrage and the civil rights act may seem like great victories but they are ones that were only neccessary because people were being extremely unreasonable in the first place. As iNow pointed out very few Republicans bothered to show up. That speaks volumes about about how unreasonable many still are.

[StringJunky]

The bridge between ethnicities because oneside has invested so much time and energy building moats. Things like woman suffrage and the civil rights act may seem like great victories but they are ones that were only neccessary because people were being extremely unreasonable in the first place. As iNow pointed out very few Republicans bothered to show up. That speaks volumes about about how unreasonable many still are.

America is not unique in its racism and unjust social divides. It is manifested all over the world between different groups but the US and Europe are slowly but surely increasing equality. There is no benefit to eternally attaching fault; we learn from history and move on, determined to not make those mistakes again. As you and iNow have mentioned about the absence of a lot of Republicans, there is still alot to do... and Obama concluded as much:

 

Fifty years from Bloody Sunday, our march is not yet finished, but we’re getting closer. Two hundred and thirty-nine years after this nation’s founding our union is not yet perfect, but we are getting closer. Our job’s easier because somebody already got us through that first mile. Somebody already got us over that bridge. When it feels the road is too hard, when the torch we’ve been passed feels too heavy, we will remember these early travelers, and draw strength from their example, and hold firmly the words of the prophet Isaiah: “Those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on [the] wings like eagles. They will run and not grow weary. They will walk and not be faint.”

[Ten oz]

America is not unique in its racism and unjust social divides. It is manifested all over the world between different groups but the US and Europe are slowly but surely increasing equality. There is no benefit to eternally attaching fault; we learn from history and move on, determined to not make those mistakes again. As you and iNow have mentioned about the absence of a lot of Republicans, there is still alot to do... and Obama concluded as much:

 

Tough to move on from a place that people deny they are at. Following the Civil Right Act starting in 1970 what has happen:

"Since 1970, our prison population has risen by some 700% - an increase far outpacing rates of population growth and crime. To put this in context, between 1920 and 1970, our prison population only grew at roughly the same rate by which our general population grew." https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/massincarceration_problems.pdf

 

That huge uptick has specifically effect one demographic far more than any other. This is a uniquely American issue. You referenced Europe as having a comparable history but Europe has no where near the per capita minority prison population the United States does nor does any European have anywhere near the number of police killings per capita. On women issues Germany just passed a law requiring cooperations to have women fill 30% of their board seats. Countries like France, Spain, and the Netherlands already have such laws in place. Comparing the united states to Europe is a bit of a false equivalency. In my opinion it is not about moving on and not making those mistakes again. It is about acknowledging that those mistakes are still being made and stopping.

[dimreepr]

I don’t think this is a uniquely American issue. The one thing a democratic political system seems unable to do, except in baby steps, is too learn from history however compelling the lesson.

[Ten oz]

I don’t think this is a uniquely American issue. The one thing a democratic political system seems unable to do, except in baby steps, is too learn from history however compelling the lesson.

I don’t think this is a uniquely American issue. The one thing a democratic political system seems unable to do, except in baby steps, is too learn from history however compelling the lesson.

The United States currently has the worlds largest prison population. Per capita the united states incarcerate black males at rates several times higher than any group experiences in the developed world. It is a modern humans rights issues. Comparing treatment of minorities around the world in the 1800's and 1900's is not useful. Here today abuses need to be acknowledges and action taken. That is not happening. Instead we get a false narrative that abuses existed in the past and we need to just learn from them and move on. We can not move on if we can not acknowledge the here and now. Beyond the prison system study after study reflects built in disadvantages for minority in everything from education to employment. We have tough thing to admit to today. Tough things to learn from today. This isn't merely about the past.

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/04/10_ways_white_people_are_more_racist_than_they_realize_partner/

[StringJunky]

...The one thing a democratic political system seems unable to do, except in baby steps, is too learn from history however compelling the lesson.

Yes, there's always a long latency between statutory declarations and general adoption. With some things, you've just to got wait for the old population to die off, and that could be half a century.or more. Sometimes change occurs not because people change but because they die and the next generations only knows the newer law, which will probably be 40-50 years old by then. It's successive generations that behave differently from the last and not the founding generations ...sadly.

Edited March 8, 2015 by StringJunky

[dimreepr]

The United States currently has the worlds largest prison population. Per capita the united states incarcerate black males at rates several times higher than any group experiences in the developed world. It is a modern humans rights issues. Comparing treatment of minorities around the world in the 1800's and 1900's is not useful. Here today abuses need to be acknowledges and action taken. That is not happening. Instead we get a false narrative that abuses existed in the past and we need to just learn from them and move on. We can not move on if we can not acknowledge the here and now. Beyond the prison system study after study reflects built in disadvantages for minority in everything from education to employment. We have tough thing to admit to today. Tough things to learn from today. This isn't merely about the past.

http://www.salon.com/2015/03/04/10_ways_white_people_are_more_racist_than_they_realize_partner/

 

 

 

The similarities between then (England) and now (America), is poverty, the difference is skin tone; it’s so much easier to hang ones prejudice on such an obvious difference.

Yes, there's always a long latency between statutory declarations and general adoption. With some things, you've just to got wait for the old population to die off, and that could be half a century.or more. Sometimes change occurs not because people change but because they die and the next generations only knows the newer law, which will probably be 40-50 years old by then. It's successive generations that behave differently from the last and not the founding generations ...sadly.

 

 

 

Indeed, but the obvious exception is America; the founding fathers seem to have understood the failings of the old world.

[MigL]

It would be nice if Obama ( and Bush ) would do something to affect change ( like giving people viable employment ).

Flowery, hopeful speeches only go so far. How about instituting a grant system which would help underprivileged minorities get the education and training needed for law enforcement so that they may police their own neighbourhoods ( and others ).

And not just in Ferguson, but all over the country.

[iNow]

It would be nice if Obama ( and Bush ) would do something to affect change ( like giving people viable employment ).

Well, they first need congress to send them a bill they can sign. Let's start there. After all, he's sent numerous job proposals and budgets to congress that would address exactly this, yet nothing.

 

Even though the talking heads over at Faux News would like you to believe otherwise, the president is not some dictator, king, or emperor who can implement such things without legislation.

[CharonY]

I suspect that the implementation of any measure on the state level could also be quite challenging. I suspect the definition of an underprivileged minority alone would be tricky if one tries to make it water tight enough to avoid politicking on the state level (or below).

[moth]

The investigation of the police department makes it clear the current situation is a money machine.
Looks like a great way to keep taxes low.
That's all that matters, right?

Ferguson’s law enforcement practices are shaped by the City’s focus on revenue rather than by public safety needs. This emphasis on revenue has compromised the institutional character of Ferguson’s police department, contributing to a pattern of unconstitutional policing, and has also shaped its municipal court, leading to procedures that raise due process concerns and inflict unnecessary harm on members of the Ferguson community. Further, Ferguson’s police and municipal court practices both reflect and exacerbate existing racial bias, including racial stereotypes. Ferguson’s own data establish clear racial disparities that adversely impact African Americans. The evidence shows that discriminatory intent is part of the reason for these disparities...

- ferguson_police_department_report.pdf

[Ten oz]

It would be nice if Obama ( and Bush ) would do something to affect change ( like giving people viable employment ).

Flowery, hopeful speeches only go so far. How about instituting a grant system which would help underprivileged minorities get the education and training needed for law enforcement so that they may police their own neighbourhoods ( and others ).

And not just in Ferguson, but all over the country.

While education and training are always terrific things to have I think all that is really needed is for the ongoing oppression to stop. For example on average nationally blacks are 3.7 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana than whites and 10 times more likely to go to prison. An incredible disparity considering that blacks are no more likely to use.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/opinion/high-time-the-injustice-of-marijuana-arrests.html

 

No group can succeed while being so clearly targeted. Rather than school grants and job training i rather see us stop making so many unemployable via our discriminatory legal system. At any given time 1 in 15 black males are in prison compared with 1 in 106 white males. 1 in 3 black males can expect to go to prison at some point in their lifetime. Blacks also receive longer prison sentences and are more likely to serve mandatory minimums than white offenders of the same crimes.

https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2012/03/13/11351/the-top-10-most-startling-facts-about-people-of-color-and-criminal-justice-in-the-united-states/

[MigL]

I simply offered an option. The quetion in the OP is after all, " how to solve it".

 

The 'sharp end of the stick' between the oppressed and the oppressors is the police enforcement.

Simply getting more of the oppressed groups into police enforcement of their own neighbourhoods, where they are familiar with the issues and circumstances, would do much to reduce real and even 'perceived' oppression.

It would allow people to trust police and ask for their help, instead of fearing/avoiding them.

[StringJunky]

I simply offered an option. The quetion in the OP is after all, " how to solve it".

 

The 'sharp end of the stick' between the oppressed and the oppressors is the police enforcement.

Simply getting more of the oppressed groups into police enforcement of their own neighbourhoods, where they are familiar with the issues and circumstances, would do much to reduce real and even 'perceived' oppression.

It would allow people to trust police and ask for their help, instead of fearing/avoiding them.

I agree, I think it it helps much if there is some sort of proportional representation in positions of authority and responsibility; youngsters, of whatever societal group they identify with, need like role models to aspire to. Maybe a decade or two of positive discrimination might get the ball rolling in the right direction.. It was done 20 or 30 years ago here in the UK and there doesn't seem to be much noise about it now. If they can apply the principle in the name of feminine equality they can justifiably do it for ethnic minorities. It will annoy white people eventually but by that time it will be time to ease off on the idea. Yes, it is social engineering but I think the means justifies the end.

Edited March 11, 2015 by StringJunky