Ferguson conflict - What is the problem, and how to solve it?

[iNow]

Indeed, an entirely valid point. It would likely help too if fewer police were truly protecting communities and the longer-term wellbeing of residents instead of acting as the de facto revenue collection arm of under-funded municipalities, thugs sent to extort and enforce burdensome and asymmetric taxes on the poor and destitute, imprisoning, beating, and shooting those who can't pay as if their uniform bestows upon them the mantle of state-sanctioned mafioso.

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EDIT - Cross posted with StringJunky

[StringJunky]

Indeed, an entirely valid point. It would likely help too if fewer police were truly protecting communities and the longer-term wellbeing of residents instead of acting as the de facto revenue collection arm of under-funded municipalities, thugs sent to extort and enforce burdensome and asymmetric taxes on the poor and destitute, imprisoning, beating, and shooting those who can't pay as if their uniform bestows upon them the mantle of state-sanctioned mafioso.

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EDIT - Cross posted with StringJunky

Do they spend more time fining people than doing the bobby-on-the-beat socially interacting with the community? Our traffic wardens were like this, at the behest of their city council employers, but the government is laying into them now for treating traffic violations as a revenue stream. Our ordinary police don't carry guns so there isn't that power trip so much over the public and the public don't give the police such a hard time because of it...they are more equal, and vulnerable, in a sense than US police are with their public.

Edited March 11, 2015 by StringJunky

[iNow]

Moth's link in post #422 covers it.

 

Here's the relevant summary from that larger US Department of Justice report:http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/03/04/us/ferguson-police-racial-discrimination.html?_r=0

<p>Police and Court Officials Focused on Making Money Rather Than Ensuring Public SafetyFerguson budgeted for large increases in municipal fines and fees each year, putting pressure on the police and court officials to meet their targets.

• Ferguson police and court officials were focused on generating revenue from municipal fines. The municipal court routinely considered more than 1,000 offenses in a single session. In 2011, the police chief reported that fines in the last month beat our next biggest month in the last four years by over $17,000. The city manager responded: Wonderful!
• One black woman was arrested twice, spent six days in jail and paid $550 to a city court, all because she parked her car illegally once in 2007 and was punished for failing to appear in court and missing payments. By 2014, she still owed the court $541 for fines stemming from the 2007 incident.
• Ferguson issued expensive fines for minor offenses: for example, $531 for high grass and weeds in a yard, $777 for resisting arrest and $792 for failure to comply with a police officer. The fine amounts were above regional averages for many offenses, the report said. Failing to provide proof of insurance cost $375 in Ferguson, more than double the median in other municipal courts in the region.

Between 2010 and 2014 alone, the percentage of general fund revenue from fines and forfeitures nearly doubled from 12% instead to 23%, all during the worst recession in generations where people were already struggling en masse to survive and largely without social safety nets.

[StringJunky]

Moth's link in post #422 covers it.

 

Here's the relevant summary from that larger US Department of Justice report:http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/03/04/us/ferguson-police-racial-discrimination.html?_r=0Between 2010 and 2014 alone, the percentage of general fund revenue from fines and forfeitures nearly doubled from 12% instead to 23%, all during the worst recession in generations where people were already struggling en masse to survive and largely without social safety nets.

That's a sure recipe for public and council dischord. Justice and profit should not be uttered in the same breathe.

[MigL]

And it seems the violence just keeps going on in Ferguson.

I think it'll get even worse before it gets better.

[iNow]

And it seems the violence just keeps going on in Ferguson.

I think it'll get even worse before it gets better.

For those who don't know, two officers were shot in front of the police station in Ferguson today. Injuries were minor and both will live, but it clearly doesn't help to alleviate tensions.

 

 

"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." ~Mahatma Gandhi

[StringJunky]

For those who don't know, two officers were shot in front of the police station in Ferguson today. Injuries were minor and both will live, but it clearly doesn't help to alleviate tensions.

 

 

"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent." ~Mahatma Gandhi

In an incidendent like this, how much resources and personnel will an investigation get?

[imatfaal]

In an incidendent like this, how much resources and personnel will an investigation get?

 

A helluva lot more than the killing of Michael Brown received. I would wager that even a DA who had failed the ham sandwich test could manage to get an indictment once the Police claim to have found the shooter.

[zapatos]

A helluva lot more than the killing of Michael Brown received.

Not that I know, but I would have guessed that between the local, state, and Federal efforts, including participation at upper levels of government, that the Michael Brown investigation received significant resources and personnel.

 

I would wager that even a DA who had failed the ham sandwich test could manage to get an indictment once the Police claim to have found the shooter.

Well, I would certainly hope so. If we couldn't get an indictment under these circumstances then we are in worse shape than I suspected.

[imatfaal]

Not that I know, but I would have guessed that between the local, state, and Federal efforts, including participation at upper levels of government, that the Michael Brown investigation received significant resources and personnel.

 

Well the initial handling of the shooting of an unarmed man was incredibly poorly handled, the police procedures for this sort of situation were not followed, the witness handling was sophomoric, and the presentation to the grand jury was either incredibly inept or deliberately poor

 

 

Well, I would certainly hope so. If we couldn't get an indictment under these circumstances then we are in worse shape than I suspected.

 

That's exactly the point. The killing of a man by a police officer requires a minor miracle and a DA who is willing to take on the power bloc of the police before you get an indictment. The shooting of a police officer it would be incredible if the purportrator isn't behind bars by the end of the week - awaiting g jury which will indict - awaiting trial which will convict.

[zapatos]

Well the initial handling of the shooting of an unarmed man was incredibly poorly handled, the police procedures for this sort of situation were not followed, the witness handling was sophomoric, and the presentation to the grand jury was either incredibly inept or deliberately poor

Of course. Although I was responding to your implication that the Michael Brown investigation did not receive suitable resources.

 

That's exactly the point. The killing of a man by a police officer requires a minor miracle and a DA who is willing to take on the power bloc of the police before you get an indictment. The shooting of a police officer it would be incredible if the purportrator isn't behind bars by the end of the week - awaiting g jury which will indict - awaiting trial which will convict.

Agreed. But surely it is to be expected that it is harder to get an indictment of an officer who is involved in a shooting while performing his duties, versus getting an indictment of a man who opens fire on a crowd of people. Edited March 13, 2015 by zapatos

[iNow]

I don't desire indictments. I desire improvements. I desire a fair system of justice and a culture of mutual respect.

 

"We as a country need to stop acting like these are isolated incidents and instead acknowledge that it is a systematic problem." ~ Jon Stewart on The Daily Show this week.

 

"We all know racism exists. But what everyone needs to do is forget about the past as much as we can and let's move from where we are now, say 'How can we help each other?'" ~ Oscar-winning musician, Common in response to Stewart.

 

 

In an incidendent like this, how much resources and personnel will an investigation get?

Lots. One of their own was targeted. Now ideas of family and vengeance enter the equation.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/13/us-usa-missouri-shooting-protest-idUSKBN0M80CJ20150313

(Reuters) - Investigators are following dozens of leads in the hunt for whoever shot and wounded two police officers in Ferguson, Missouri, during a protest rally this week, the head of the St. Louis County police said on Friday.

 

Police Chief Jon Belmar said that detectives are working around the clock and would not rest until they have resolved the case

Edited March 14, 2015 by iNow

[StringJunky]

...Lots. One of their own was targeted. Now ideas of family and vengeance enter the equation.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/13/us-usa-missouri-shooting-protest-idUSKBN0M80CJ20150313

Yes, I see what you mean.

Edited March 14, 2015 by StringJunky

[MigL]

So Black Americans thought one of their own had been unfairly targeted and killed.

Now the police think some of them have been unfairly targeted and almost killed.

 

I don't think anyone is taking Jon Stewart's or Common's advice.

Are we destined to have a Northern Ireland, Israel/Palestine or Balkans, right her in our back yard ?

[iNow]

So Black Americans thought one of their own had been unfairly targeted and killed.

"One?"

 

I don't think anyone is taking Jon Stewart's or Common's advice.

I disagree. Lots of people are. They're just less sensational and so don't fill our airways or news feeds or go viral in social media.

[Ten oz]

Are we destined to have a Northern Ireland, Israel/Palestine or Balkans, right her in our back yard ?

That is a leap. Throughout the United States struggle for equally minorities have been overwhelming peaceful. During slavery family were purposely separated, people were whipped, burned, handicapped, and in many cases lynched. Fast forward to the Jim Crow era and blacks were hit with clubs, bit by dogs, sprayed down by fire hoses, and in certian case lynched. Today blacks experience an incredible disproportionate imprisonment rate that strips millions of opportunity and equal standard of living. Blacks are generally no longer lynched but police still gun down teenagers in street and and policies like stop and frisk harass entire communities. Throughout the history of the push towards equality blacks have never resorted to suicide bombings, assassinating government officials, or any wide spread violence. The worst we have seen from the black community is broken convenient store windows and a scattering of injuries resulting from riots which have generally been started from aggressive police crowd dispersal. It greatly exaggerates the ongoning equality push in the United States to compare it to conflicts which have given birth to terrorism and armed insurrection. More people will drowned this year in the United States than will be killed in race roits or any sort of ongoing race war.

[zapatos]

The worst we have seen from the black community is broken convenient store windows and a scattering of injuries...

Huh. That's it? You cannot think of a single instance in the past 200 years where blacks killed their oppressors or resorted to widespread violence?

 

The people in power in this country have been suppressing and exploiting blacks and other minorities for hundreds of years. No need to exaggerate to make them seem even worse than they are. The simple truth is more than enough condemnation. Blatant exaggeration only diminishes your argument.

[Ten oz]

Huh. That's it? You cannot think of a single instance in the past 200 years where blacks killed their oppressors or resorted to widespread violence?The people in power in this country have been suppressing and exploiting blacks and other minorities for hundreds of years. No need to exaggerate to make them seem even worse than they are. The simple truth is more than enough condemnation. Blatant exaggeration only diminishes your argument.

What is you definition of widespread violence? MigL referenced the IRA and Hamas. In 200yrs I think it is very accurate to say nothing comparable has exited in the Black community. Please educate me if I am missing episodes in U.S. where blacks strapped bombs to their chests and blown up resturants, bus stop, malls and etc. Where blacks form an army with tens of thousands of member to fight the U.S. government.

[zapatos]

Does this mean you still claim "The worst we have seen from the black community is broken convenient store windows and a scattering of injuries..."?

[Ten oz]

Does this mean you still claim "The worst we have seen from the black community is broken convenient store windows and a scattering of injuries..."?

Does this mean you aren't willing to define your version of widespread violence?

[zapatos]

You regularly make bold assertions then start the Texas Two-Step when you are challenged. It was a straight forward question. Why can't you just give a straight forward answer?

Edited March 16, 2015 by zapatos

[imatfaal]

Many of the older members here will remember the long hot summer of 1967 - and the lesser resurgence of rioting in the wake of the assassination of MLK. There are estimates of 10-15,000 rioters on the streets of Detroit and Newark in '67; the 160 riots that summer led to hundreds of deaths and thousands of serious injuries .

 

I have been arguing on and off with Zapatos through most of this thread - but on this point he is making is correct here.

 

However, the comparison with Northern Island and Palestine is not apt as there is no para-military command structure (TTBOOMK) - these civil disturbances were mass action prompted by deliberate provocation and met with similar amounts of violence.

[Ten oz]

 

However, the comparison with Northern Island and Palestine is not apt as there is no para-military command structure (TTBOOMK) - these civil disturbances were mass action prompted by deliberate provocation and met with similar amounts of violence.

 

And this is why context matters. I referenced rioting in my post and did not say violence never happened. MigL made the comparison to Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine by asking if that was we (USA) was destine to go with the black community. That is the scale of violence being commenting on. Zapatos is doing his normal bait and switch by pretending my post claims something it doesn't.

The civil rights movements were not paramilitary pushes. They were overwhelming peaceful and when violence did accord it was not organized or planned and often the result of provocation.

Throughout the history of the push towards equality blacks have never resorted to suicide bombings, assassinating government officials, or any wide spread violence. The worst we have seen from the black community is broken convenient store windows and a scattering of injuries resulting from riots which have generally been started from aggressive police crowd dispersal.

@ Zapatos, in context what is inaccurate? You have latched on to "wide spread violence" but refuse to provide a definition or example. Violence has accorded but nothing at the level to which was being compared in the post I was responding to. The violence which has accorded was generally not the goal where as it often was and is amongst the conflicts compared IRA / Hamas.

Riots are rather spontaneous events. They do not compare to the premeditated and organized nature of suicide bombing, kidnappings, govt assassinations, and etc.

[MigL]

Come on, you guys, that is not what I meant.

Ten oz just likes to 'pounce' on me from time to time.

The next line should have given away my meaning as it referenced the previously quoted Common and Jon Stewart.

 

I'll repeat...

Are we going to have another LONG-RUNNING CONFLICT in the US, similar to others worldwide that have lasted for decades if not centuries, where neither side is willing to forget, forgive, and move on to a better future ?

 

Incidentally news reports have appeared that the apprehended shooter was on parole for a previous robbery, but he may not have been targeting police. He may have been shooting at totally different targets and the policemen were 'collateral' damage, i.e. this was not a retaliatory act.

 

But that still begs the question, what is it with you Americans and your guns ?

[overtone]

 

 

Are we going to have another LONG-RUNNING CONFLICT in the US, similar to others worldwide that have lasted for decades if not centuries, where neither side is willing to forget, forgive, and move on to a better future ?

You are talking as if there were two sides in pitched battle here. There is no black community equivalent to the Ferguson Police department, anywhere in the US - and that is just one police department, by no means the only or worst of its kind.

 

It's not as if US black people have a chance to forget what is ongoing, or forgive what has never been recognized by the perpetrators, or move on in any sense of the term.