Ferguson conflict - What is the problem, and how to solve it?

[Ten oz]

Do you have data that all participants of robberies in Ferguson were arrested? If you have not the data then it proves that I am right.

 

 

Do you think that racism exists only in white society?

 

 

The past isn't a present.

History and position in society matter. For example some women may have negative biases against men and perhaps are even vocal about them. That is less threatening or insulting than a man doing the same about women based on history and power. Throughout history men have raped, murdered, and abused millions of women. So comments made by men toward women carry a much heavier meaning. Men are not and have not had any reason to feel oppressed by women. Same goes for any number of issues. If the German Government participated in holocaust denial it would be even more disgusting than Iran doing it. And yes, because of slavery and segregation (which just ended formerly in the 60's) whites in the U.S. have earned a little more scrutiny when it comes to racism. Plus whites are the majority, have the most money, hold the most positions of power, and so on.

[DimaMazin]

 

Yes. I said mainly. Whatever racial prejudices they might have is pretty much moot within the context of this discussion. We're talking about the prejudices that are behind causing black people to be arrested at twice the rate of whites, and be the victim of arrest-related homicides at an even higher rate than that (the FBI stats iNow posted a day ago)

They are more successful criminals therefore success attracts them to crime agen. And to live in USA prison is better than in Africa and in Latin America for them.

[iNow]

Again, entirely irrelevant and barely comprehensible.

[DimaMazin]

Again, entirely irrelevant and barely comprehensible.

When you see danger you should avoid collision with the danger. Every man chooses own destiny. They like to collide with police.

Edited December 27, 2014 by DimaMazin

[iNow]

Again, entirely peripheral to what's actually being discussed here.

[Willie71]

When you see danger you should avoid collision with the danger. Every man chooses own destiny. They like to collide with police.

Your comments are quite disturbing. At best they are ignorant, but you seem to be willfully ignoring evidence that there is a severe bias against blacks in the US. Are you racist? Serious question. Do you thing there is something wrong with blacks that they bring this on themselves?

[DimaMazin]

Your comments are quite disturbing. At best they are ignorant, but you seem to be willfully ignoring evidence that there is a severe bias against blacks in the US. Are you racist? Serious question. Do you thing there is something wrong with blacks that they bring this on themselves?

Even Obama doesn't support black revolts. Is he white racist? I just do right politics.

Edited December 27, 2014 by DimaMazin

[MigL]

Your reply is very telling Willie71, you immediately throw down the ignorant racist card.

 

Lets take out the race factor altogether so it doesn't further inflame the discussion.

What would your answer be to the question...

" do socially and economically disadvantaged people bring police attention to themselves ?"

 

I think you would have to answer yes. This may not be right and it may not be something they want to do, but it happens in larger numbers than the rest of the population. Their actions are dictated by need. An affluent person may be able to support their cocaine habit, but a street kid may have to do break-ins to buy crack. You or I may be able to feed our kids, but a jobless single mother may have turn to prostitution to make ends meet. If your father left when you were young, and your mother has to work two jobs to survive, and you dropped out of school, would you join a gang and 'loiter' to pass the time ? I can give more examples if needed.

Unfortunately socially and economically disadvantaged people gravitate towards these and other kinds of activities more than the norm. and these are the kind of activities which draw police attention, whether justly or unjustly.

 

So the question you should ask " is the black population of Ferguson and similar towns, affluent, or are they socially and economically disadvantaged ?

Notice that I don't ask whether it is their own fault or the fault of society, nor whether the police attention is justified or not, but simply whether they fit into that demographic which draws police attention more than the population average.

And would you consider this "bringing it on themselves" or allowed because of circumstances ?

 

Keep in mind that we are looking to rectify the problem, not assign blame !

Edited December 28, 2014 by MigL

[swansont]

They are more successful criminals therefore success attracts them to crime agen. And to live in USA prison is better than in Africa and in Latin America for them.

 

What does that have to do with anything under discussion?

[Willie71]

Your reply is very telling Willie71, you immediately throw down the ignorant racist card.

 

Lets take out the race factor altogether so it doesn't further inflame the discussion.

What would your answer be to the question...

" do socially and economically disadvantaged people bring police attention to themselves ?"

 

I think you would have to answer yes. This may not be right and it may not be something they want to do, but it happens in larger numbers than the rest of the population. Their actions are dictated by need. An affluent person may be able to support their cocaine habit, but a street kid may have to do break-ins to buy crack. You or I may be able to feed our kids, but a jobless single mother may have turn to prostitution to make ends meet. If your father left when you were young, and your mother has to work two jobs to survive, and you dropped out of school, would you join a gang and 'loiter' to pass the time ? I can give more examples if needed.

Unfortunately socially and economically disadvantaged people gravitate towards these and other kinds of activities more than the norm. and these are the kind of activities which draw police attention, whether justly or unjustly.

 

So the question you should ask " is the black population of Ferguson and similar towns, affluent, or are they socially and economically disadvantaged ?

Notice that I don't ask whether it is their own fault or the fault of society, nor whether the police attention is justified or not, but simply whether they fit into that demographic which draws police attention more than the population average.

And would you consider this "bringing it on themselves" or allowed because of circumstances ?

 

Keep in mind that we are looking to rectify the problem, not assign blame !

It's bigger than just equivalent socioeconomic status. If you wNt to ignore the overwhelming evidence of bias against visible minorities, and the principle of systemic racism, that's fine. Do you really think DimaMazin is looking to solve anything? I certainly don't get that sense. The comments are basically direct examples of what systemic racism is. If it walks like a duck.....

[DimaMazin]

Plus whites are the majority, have the most money, hold the most positions of power, and so on.

Yes. And they created good conditions of life of blacks relative to other places in the world. Otherwise we would see black refugees from USA.

Edited December 28, 2014 by DimaMazin

[swansont]

Yes. And they created good conditions of life of blacks relative to other places in the world. Otherwise we would see black refugees from USA.

 

Not good enough for a country based on equality.

[Ten oz]

Your reply is very telling Willie71, you immediately throw down the ignorant racist card.

 

Lets take out the race factor altogether so it doesn't further inflame the discussion.

What would your answer be to the question...

" do socially and economically disadvantaged people bring police attention to themselves ?"

 

While going to School in San Francisco as a younger man I worked Security for a multi highrise building complex in the financial district. The majority of the tenants were high income Lawyers and Accountants. I would estimate that about a third of my day was spend following or questioning people based on complaints from tenants. A typical complaint would be something simple as someone calling security to report a "suspicious" person in the parking garage. In almost every cases that "suspicious" person turned out to be someone who belonged in the building but was not visibly affluent like so many others in the building. As security I would walk in the garage scan around for a few seconds seeing suits and briefcases everywhere then notice one out of place person in jeans and sweatshirt and most of time that was the "suspicious" person that had been described to me. And yes, they were almost always black or latino. So I would then either follow them or stop n' question them to find out why they were there. I was obligated to do so because we had received a complaint. It was normally just someone who worked in a mail room, someones bother or son there to drop something off, or held some service job in the building that did not afford them expensive clothes. By virtue of the way they looked and how other perceived them these people received extra interactions with security. Their behavior was more highly scrutinized and they were watched on camera, followed by security, and often challenged. They did nothing to bring that upon themselves.

 

There was crime at the complex. Office burglars were a big problem. They were/are people who would dress up in nice professional business clothes walk into an office build and walk around floor after floor taking gold pens, ipods, small pieces of art, wallets, and etc off peoples desks. Then escape by leisurely strolling out the lobby. If stopped they would just make up some fake attorney they were in the building to see and for the most part they moved about indiscriminately. They were invisible. Tenants did not notice them because they blended in. No one was ever suspicious of the guy with a nice hair cut and suit.

 

Funny story....sorry, I had meant for this to be a shorter response; one tenant was some type of art collector. He had a rare book that specifically chronicled the life of some turn of the century Norwegian artist. For the life of me I can not remember the artists name or discipline. Anyway his book went missing. So I and the janitorial supervisor were called to the tenants office where the tenant insisted one of the night shift janitors had stolen his book. He claimed the the previous week he had been looking through the book while one of the janitors had been in his office cleaning and they must had seen the book. According to him the book was worth thousands of dollars. So we (janitorial sup and I) were obligated to question the janitors. When we finished, no janitor remembered anything about any book, the janitorial sup. Made me laugh. He said something to the effect of "these janitors have 50 rooms clean. You could put the Mona Lisa in the trash and they would just take it out and keep moving". Sure enough the guy found his book. He had misplaced it but never elaborated where. Sadly he still insisted that the janitors only be allowed to clean his office during the day when he was there. So the Sup. had to re-work the an already tight schedule to accommodate. His error became janitorial burden.

 

Alright, enough storytelling. " do socially and economically disadvantaged people bring police attention to themselves ?" I do not believe so. Economically disadvantaged people are more highly scrutinized and as a result are on a much shorter leash. High income people feel more suspicious and threaten by lower income people. This results in the police being called on lower income people more frequently. Think about it; if you are behind the register of a corner store and a man that looks homeless walks in at the same time as a man in a nice suit which one would you keep a closer eye on?

[iNow]

IMO, the low SES suggestion is little more than a red herring, especially given that the statistics presented are normalized, presented per capita, and consistent across income groups, age, and region.

[StringJunky]

...

Alright, enough storytelling. " do socially and economically disadvantaged people bring police attention to themselves ?" I do not believe so. Economically disadvantaged people are more highly scrutinized and as a result are on a much shorter leash. High income people feel more suspicious and threaten by lower income people. This results in the police being called on lower income people more frequently. Think about it; if you are behind the register of a corner store and a man that looks homeless walks in at the same time as a man in a nice suit which one would you keep a closer eye on?

Ironic really because there is the counterpoint that: no one got rich by being honest.

[MigL]

While all you say is true, please address my three examples.

If you watch any episode of 'Cops', you'll see the amount of attention these three examples get.

 

Do affluent people commit B+E as much as disadvantaged people ?

Do affluent people prostitute themselves as much as the disadvantaged ( other than in Hollywood ) ?

Do the affluent join social clubs or street gangs ?

 

If you're going to commit petty theft, or stand around on a street corner ( as a prostitute or in a gang ), you are going to draw police attention. It really is that simple.

 

I would guess that the answer is not to turn a blind eye to the petty theft or hangin' out on the street corner in the interest of 'fairness' or 'equality', but to give these people gainful employment and make them a part of an inclusive society.

( notice that the above could apply to any race or color, even to 'white' people, and it often did, early in the last century to Italians, Irish and other Europeans )

[Ten oz]

While all you say is true, please address my three examples.

If you watch any episode of 'Cops', you'll see the amount of attention these three examples get.

 

1 -Do affluent people commit B+E as much as disadvantaged people ?

2 - Do affluent people prostitute themselves as much as the disadvantaged ( other than in Hollywood ) ?

3 - Do the affluent join social clubs or street gangs ?

 

"Cops" is a reality TV show. They (the producers) pick and choose what to air based on what will get the biggest audience. It is not a direct unedited look at the typical day in the life of. So I have a problem using that show as a foundation which supports the outline examples you specifically want addressed. I am unaware of any data that supports your 3 examples as being particularly prevalent catalysts for citizen to police interaction. For example; do more people interact with police as a result of prostituting than as a result of traffic stops? Do more people interact with police as the result of breaking and enter than for being drunken in public? Do more people interact with police for being part of street gangs than for domestic violence? Do you have any statistical analyst on what prompts the most interaction or is it all based on the TV show cops?

Anyways, I will address your examples:

 

1 - The clearance rate (percentage of cases solved) for property crimes, which covers breaking and entering, in the United States is less than a quarter. So the overwhelming majority of such cases are unsolved. So the answer to your question; I don't know. Any attempt to affirmatively answer that question is speculative.

"Among property crimes, 21.5 percent of larceny-theft offenses, 12.7 percent of burglary offenses, and 11.9 percent of motor vehicle theft offenses were cleared."

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/clearances

 

2 - There are higher end escort services and brothels but I assume your question is directed at the low street walking sub-segment specifically. Simply having a below average income does not make someone a good candidate for street walking prostitution. Drug addiction, childhood physical abuse, mental illness, and other factors are thing psychology have identified. Economic status is not the key issue. 75% of prostitutes were molested as children. That is a key issue.

http://www.veronicasvoice.org/statistics/

 

3 - I am not sure I understand this example. How would a police officer know someone is part of a gang just seeing them walking down the street?

Edited December 28, 2014 by Ten oz

[MigL]

So...

1 - You don't know.

2 - There may be other factors involved.

3 - you don't understand.

 

Come-on, I know you can do better.

 

Police officers spend the better part of their day just driving around, not chasing criminals or making traffic stops. If a cop is driving around, people standing about without a purpose are likely to get his attention.

While its true that 'streetwalker' prostitutes may have been molested as kids, they would also not have finished an education, and would be stuck in menial jobs, if they could find one in today's economy. It is usually a series of causes, not a single one, that leads to that lot in life.

And as for street gangs, maybe there are none in sunny SoCal, but in any other inner city, a group of males hanging out in front of an apt. building, in the middle of the day, usually draws police attention.

And sure, you gave a breakdown of property crimes by offence. Nice statistics. Now see if you can find how many of those crimes were committed by people with a steady income. I'd wager its a very small minority.

[Ten oz]

So...

1 - You don't know.

2 - There may be other factors involved.

3 - you don't understand.

 

Come-on, I know you can do better.

 

Police officers spend the better part of their day just driving around, not chasing criminals or making traffic stops. If a cop is driving around, people standing about without a purpose are likely to get his attention.

While its true that 'streetwalker' prostitutes may have been molested as kids, they would also not have finished an education, and would be stuck in menial jobs, if they could find one in today's economy. It is usually a series of causes, not a single one, that leads to that lot in life.

And as for street gangs, maybe there are none in sunny SoCal, but in any other inner city, a group of males hanging out in front of an apt. building, in the middle of the day, usually draws police attention.

And sure, you gave a breakdown of property crimes by offence. Nice statistics. Now see if you can find how many of those crimes were committed by people with a steady income. I'd wager its a very small minority.

This whole post is pure speculation. Like I already pointed out you aren't supporting anything with data. So there isn't really anything to debate. You are posting opinions and impressions while using TV shows as your source.

What are the main or most common sources of police interaction? I have a tough time believing prostitution ranks particularly high.

[iNow]

It also doesn't appear that the ones being regularly gunned down by police or incarcerated at unrepresentative rates given the population and crime rate by race are primarily involved prostitution, gang activity, or breaking and entering, so this too is both irrelevant to the actual thread topic and is yet another set of red herrings.

[DimaMazin]

that: no one got rich by being honest.

Do the blacks have more discontent concerning to that thing than relative to some racial discrimination which is now?

[MigL]

So let me get this straight...

 

If black Americans ( or hispanics or any other disadvantaged demographic ) had the opportunities that others have, if young people could get employment, or their parents had gainful employment so as to be able to send their kids to school and get an education, don't you think that would alleviate a lot of the discrimination ?

 

You guys seem to see only racial discrimination against black Americans; I'm saying there is discrimination against every disadvantaged group of people, whether hispanic , middle eastern, SE asian or any other illegal immigrant. The common denominator is their unfortunate lot in life. THAT is what needs to change.

[iNow]

You guys seem to see only racial discrimination against black Americans; I'm saying there is discrimination against every disadvantaged group of people, whether hispanic , middle eastern, SE asian or any other illegal immigrant. The common denominator is their unfortunate lot in life. THAT is what needs to change.

Sure, other groups also face various challenges and selected forms of discrimination, but getting shot and incarcerated at rates far exceeding what population metrics suggest are appropriate are not included within those specific parameters.

 

Do you understand why this is now the third time I've had to point out and illuminate your propensity for frustrating consistency around inappropriate use of the red herring fallacy?

Edited December 30, 2014 by iNow

[overtone]

" do socially and economically disadvantaged people bring police attention to themselves ?"

No. They have police attention imposed upon them. If they are black and in certain places in America, the police attention is oppressive and violent.

 

White stockbrokers on Wall Street, heavily involved in the cocaine trade and prostitution and gambling as well as theft and fraud and swindle and embezzlements of various kinds, have not been subjected to stop and frisk policies or no-knock swat team home entries, for example. The police have never, regardless of known criminal presence and crime level, cruised Wall Street or raided the commuter train stops with vans, seized however many likely criminals or observed criminals (jaywalking, obstructing the sidewalk, littering, smoking in an entry, etc) matched the number of officers who needed an arrest for their records, and arraigned them in courts where their bail was set at just enough to keep them from meeting it as a pressure to plead guilty.

 

I know of no white suburb or community in America, regardless of its income level or criminal reputation, treated like that.

 

I know of no white community in America that is policed by people from another area, of a different race and culture, with a history of ugly violence and a current status of impunity.

 

 

 

 

The common denominator is their unfortunate lot in life. THAT is what needs to change.

Let's start by removing the burden of oppressive and damaging police behavior. That's one thing we as outsiders can help quite a bit with.

 

 

 

 

You guys seem to see only racial discrimination against black Americans; I'm saying there is discrimination against every disadvantaged group of people, whether hispanic , middle eastern, SE asian or any other illegal immigrant.

The black people in Ferguson, or most other American regions, are not immigrants. There's a history here. Edited December 30, 2014 by overtone

[Ten oz]

I know of no white community in America that is policed by people from another area, of a different race and culture, with a history of ugly violence and a current status of impunity.

 

 

Terrific point. What you described is nonexistent in the community you highlighted. Meanwhile it is the standard in black communities.