Ferguson conflict - What is the problem, and how to solve it?

[Ten oz]

And I ( and Zapatos ) have provided the same Ferguson example as evidence of unfair racial profiling/treatment giving rise to push-back and an increase in injuries/damage. Another would be the L.A. riots after Rodney King which also stemmed from unfair treatment by the LAPD and ultimately led to hundreds of arrests and injuries.

What more can I do to address your question above ?

What do you believe you have provided? St Louis country has a PROVABLE history of racial bias in their law enforcement practices. Following investigations they have fired leadership and disbanded entire departments. That plus the actual rates of police stops and searches showing over a 10-1 greater rate for blacks is very compelling evidence. I have linked all.

 

What have you presented? Do you think simply referencing something like the LA riots (which had no connection to Ferguson) is evidence of something? Opinions are not facts and thoughts are not evidence. I have presented real information. You have present a philosophy for consideration which you have thus far failed to support with anything but speculation.

[MigL]

Now you're being really obtuse.

I have presented the reasoning that leads to my ideas, while you keep on insisting I have a 'secret agenda' and should just 'come out and say it'.

Let me try one final time and, please, read this several times until you understand what I'm trying to say or ask for clarification before jumping to your usual conclusions.

 

Say you or I are driving down the road and a cop pulls us over, chances are you'll have a civil conversation with him before he scolds us or tickets us for speeding. This has happened ( too ) many times to me, but its always been civil and not threatening or intimidating.

 

Now consider a Polish immigrant in Vancouver airport, I don't recall, but say about 15 yrs ago. He is approached by police for a routine matter, but he doesn't understand English. He becomes agitated then violent and is tasered numerous times before he is sudued. He dies due to the tasering and I don't recall if he had a heart condition. This was a real incident.

 

Now say you are a black kid who gets stopped for a routine matter by police, be it in Ferguson, or any other city after the Ferguson incident, do you think you would be civil, or do you think you wouldn't be afraid for your life ? Do you think your life experiences wouldn't influence the response you have to this real or perceived threat ? Do you think you wouldn't run or try to resist arrest ? Do you think you wouldn't imagine getting shot through the head just as happened in Ferguson, and just as the Polish immigrant recalled the actions of the 'secret police' in the former communist Poland ? Do you think you wouldn't try to fight back, even if there was a perfectly valid reason for being stopped, and there was no real danger to you ?

 

If you answered yes to any of the above questions you're full of sh*t, because your life experiences DO dictate how you respond to situations.

If you answered no, then I believe I have proved my assertion and we can get back on topic.

Edited September 12, 2014 by MigL

[Amity]

I never believe that there is only 1 party to blame for any conflict, even if there is one obvious dominant party (the government in this case). Btw, note that I do not disagree with anything you posted.

The party is not the government, it is the white population, in my opinion. It's not just that certain racist police officials are taking advantage of their power, but normal citizens who are white discriminate just as much. Sure, these officials on the government payroll is a problem, but in the overall view I would say that it is overall racism by a certain percentage of the white population. Now that police are getting involved in more (there was another recent shooting a of a black man, 6 shots in the back while he was running away. It was not Ferguson), and they are not being confronted enough of the issue. They must be held accountable for their actions, which does not seem to be occurring.

[iNow]

More for the "this is absolutely nuts" file:

 

 

 

Source

.

 

Edit: Sorry for the massive img size. I'm not sure how to thumbnail that or make it more reasonable.

[MigL]

Oh no !

Not again ?

Didn't you see what you started between Ten oz and I last time you posted race based stats ?

 

No seriously, thanks for the informative post.

I assume these stats are American. I wonder how they would compare to Canadian or European numbers ? Is it a mostly American effect or is it widespread in all ( so called ) modern societies ?

 

Also, any explanation for the drop in incarceration rates at about 2000-5 ?

[Ten oz]

Oh no !

 

I wonder how they would compare to Canadian or European numbers ? Is it a mostly American effect or is it widespread in all ( so called ) modern societies ?

WASHINGTON One area where the United States indisputably leads the world

 

The United States has 2.3 million people behind bars, almost one in every 100 Americans. The U.S. prison population has more than doubled over the past 15 years, and one in nine black children has a parent in jail.

 

Proportionally, the United States has four times as many prisoners as Israel, six times as many as Canada or China, eight times as many as Germany and 13 times as many as Japan.

 

With just a little more than 4 percent of the worlds population, the United States accounts for a quarter of the planets prisoners and has more inmates than the leading 35 European countries combined. Almost all the other nations with high per capita prison rates are in the developing world.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/21/us/21iht-letter21.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Edited September 18, 2014 by Ten oz

[MigL]

Any insight as to the rapid drop-off in incarceration rates after the peaks in/about 2000 ?

[zapatos]

I think what is important is not how many prisoners the US has compared to other countries, but how their ratio of black (or minority) to white (or majority) prisoners compares to ours.

[CharonY]

Which data set do you have? Looking at the wiki page it appears to me that at 2000 it was still rising but starting to plateau and the first drop (which does not seem overly dramatic in slope) sometime between 2010-12. The data set was Incarceration per 100k 1925-2012, btw.

That drop is at least partially explained here.

 

Edit: crossposted with Zapatos.

Edited September 18, 2014 by CharonY

[Ten oz]

Any insight as to the rapid drop-off in incarceration rates after the peaks in/about 2000 ?

There was not a drop in 2000.

 

www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p10.pdf

[MigL]

I'm looking at the incarceration rates chart ( first set ) that iNow posted ( post #79 ) . The time span is 1960-2010. Black American incarceration numbers increase steadily to about 2000 ( peak ), then decline.

Edited September 19, 2014 by MigL

[Ten oz]

I'm looking at the incarceration rates chart ( first set ) that iNow posted ( post #79 ) . The time span is 1960-2010. Black American incarceration numbers increase steadily to about 2000 ( peak ), then decline.

 

WASHINGTON – The U.S. prison population declined 1.7 percent (or by 27,770 inmates) from 2011 to 2012, falling to an estimated 1,571,013 prisoners, the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) announced today. Nine states had a decrease of over 1,000 prisoners in 2012: California, Texas, North Carolina, Colorado, Arkansas, New York, Florida, Virginia and Maryland.

This is the third consecutive year of a decline in the number of state prisoners, which represents a shift in the direction of incarceration practice in the states over the past 30 years. The prison population grew every year between 1978 and 2009, from 307,276 prisoners in 1978 to a high of 1,615,487 prisoners in 2009.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/press/p12acpr.cfm

Canada's Prison population:

 

http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/2012-ccrs/index-eng.aspx

Edited September 19, 2014 by Ten oz

[iNow]

I suspect MigL is looking only at the black population and even then only within a specific age group (for example, btw ages 30-34), but the question he's asking implies an overall drop which doesn't actually exist in the data.

[Ten oz]

I suspect MigL is looking only at the black population and even then only within a specific age group (for example, btw ages 30-34), but the question he's asking implies an overall drop which doesn't actually exist in the data.

I also suspect that the actual data isn't meaningful to him. He has yet to pose a question regarding the data that he couldn't have found the answer to in 2 minutes or less on the internet.

[iNow]

I also suspect that the actual data isn't meaningful to him.

That's not what I intended to imply with my post.

[Hendrick Laursen]

Hi,

 

I believe in the Ferguson case, even if the intention wasn't discrimination on Blacks, it is considered Racism by the fellow citizens of the dead guy, though.

 

Let's not forget one of the very first sentences of The Declaration of Independence of the United States of America, 1776:

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

[Ten oz]

That's not what I intended to imply with my post.

Perhaps I should have said in addition to. I was adding on to your post. Did not mean to imply what your meaning was.

[MigL]

If you are at all 'suspicious' of my intent Ten oz, we can have another full page discussion about me ( off topic ).

I would rather forgive, forget and move on. Obviously I'm more tolerant of your ideas than you of mine.

 

I clearly state in post #86 that I'm looking at black incarceration numbers. And you are right ,iNow, I was only looking at the first four age groupings, not all six.

 

The reason I asked instead of looking up incarceration numbers myself, is because iNow's post shows a decline for that demographic, in a specific time range, and, this being a discussion forum ( not an assuming or suspecting forum, Ten oz ), I thought I would ask other's opinions as to the cause or even if it's factual

Edited September 19, 2014 by MigL

[Ten oz]

If you are at all 'suspicious' of my intent Ten oz, we can have another full page discussion about me ( off topic ).

I would rather forgive, forget and move on. Obviously I'm more tolerant of your ideas than you of mine.

 

I clearly state in post #86 that I'm looking at black incarceration numbers. And you are right ,iNow, I was only looking at the first four age groupings, not all six.

 

The reason I asked instead of looking up incarceration numbers myself, is because iNow's post shows a decline for that demographic, in a specific time range, and, this being a discussion forum ( not an assuming or suspecting forum, Ten oz ), I thought I would ask other's opinions as to the cause or even if it's factual

I am not suspicious. I just find it odd that you ask questions about information that is public record, very easily researched, and links to have already been provided. I do not suspect this, that, or the other; I simply don't understand why you continue to question rather than read the creditable sources already given or research yourself.

[MigL]

Again, "I thought I would ask other's opinions as to the cause, or even it it's factual", relating to iNow's post.

What part of this do you not understand ???

[Professor Blue]

Blacks are as capable as whites of succeeding here, but they must work harder to do it, and they often don't have the skills or the help to know how to succeed.

 

Unfortunately, even when people from under-represented groups are qualified to the nth degree, they still encounter huge hurdles that are simply not there for ... (insert white guy term here).

 

Here's a recent Huffington Post article written by a women student at MIT.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jennifer-selvidge/pushing-women-and-people-_b_5840392.html?&ir=Science&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000047

 

This has been shared by a lot of academics and scientists, including the likes of @DNLee5 (her twitter account), among others. She's tweeted a lot about Ferguson in particular, and also about being a black woman scientist.

 

One tweet of hers in particular caught my attention: "What I witnessed y'day on Twitter was a mass of ppl shock & awed at a problem that is happening daily, right in front of their eyes. "

She could have been discussing any number of issues and this tweet would easily apply.

 

Back to Ferguson. You have black people who experience being black in America. And some white people in power making that experience worse.

 

There's a writer named Digby who has been documenting an increase in abuses by members of the police force in the US with regard to using tasers.

 

Stand Your Ground Laws hurt people of color disproportionately.

 

And for what it's worth? Missouri is a state that is not part of the South. Racism exists everywhere in the US. Lest we forget the Cliven Bundy brouhaha in Montana, for example.

[Ten oz]

@ Professor Blue, in my opinion a big part of the problem is that a lot of people simple refuse to acknowledge that facts carry more weight than speculation or opinion. Whether it is obvious things evolution and climate change or social problems like unequal pay for women and high police interaction rates for blacks. The statistical information is clear. In the case of Ferguson people of color are disproportionately stopped, searched, and arrested at higher rates by a police force that itself is diproportionaley lacking in people of color.

Unfortunately there is often a belief system driven by anecdotal personal experience that many people use to ignore the actual numbers. Speculations about aggression in the black community or challanges to individual character are made equal parts of the conversation as some people dismiss the actual statistics. In my opinion empirical statistics over time are far more telling than any individual event. I believe that when things constantly happen to a group of people over long periods of time it requires acknowledgement and change. After all doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result is insane. I also think it is the responsibility of a responsible gov't to look for legal & structural ways of resolving matters that are negatively impacting groups on people in their communities.

 

 

BTW Cliven Bundy is in Neveda, not Montana.

[Professor Blue]

Oops - you're right Nevada for Cliven Bundy. Which is still not in the US south.

 

As for this:

 

 

 

a lot of people simple refuse to acknowledge that facts carry more weight than speculation or opinion

 

...what are you referring to? Carries more weight where, and how exactly?

 

Two more quotes that I find to be both contradictory and right on:

 

@cartoon_physics:

"It's astonishing how many people in science ignore data until they're confronted with anecdotes."

@DNLee5:

"Science requires data to believe anecdotes but won't believe the data until there are powerful anecdotes. ~ This is crazy think/talk"

Then there's this, where a citizen finds the Ferguson PD to be outright liars.

https://storify.com/VeryWhiteGuy/shaunking-exposes-ferguson-pd-lie-about-distance-f

The thing about news and science is that people report the news. People are scientists and 'do' science. Science isn't a thing found on its own in nature. If you have a small representative sample in every field, no matter the field, you're not including a good enough sample of humanity. Which skews the data. Doesn't tell a good story. And so on.

[Ten oz]

 

 

...what are you referring to? Carries more weight where, and how exactly?

 

 

A board general statement. Perhaps an ill chosen one. As it applies to Ferguson; the rates of black people being stopped, searched, and arrested is undeniably disproportional. http://ago.mo.gov/VehicleStops/2013/reports/161.pdf

 

As a matter of recorded fact those numbers carry more weight (are more important to this conversation) than speculations about people's attitudes, actions, or habits.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Ten oz

[Ten oz]

Again, "I thought I would ask other's opinions as to the cause, or even it it's factual", relating to iNow's post.

What part of this do you not understand ???

Can we start again? I apology if I have been unduly critical. I have been in many discussions about these type of issues over the years and have become fatigued. The result of that is impatiences. You have questions and I have been annoyed that you haven't or aren't researching the information yourself. However researching information doesn't necessarily provide context or perspective. So an honest question should be received as such and I haven't been doing that.