Ferguson conflict - What is the problem, and how to solve it?

[zapatos]

A lot of people I know who do not reside in St. Louis have told me how bad things look here after the shooting of Michael Brown. They get the impression that there is widespread rioting and destruction. Here is some data from the local newspaper (St. Louis Post-Dispatch) as of today.

 

THROUGH TODAY THERE HAVE BEEN:

 

Zero deaths.

 

Zero police officers seriously injured.

 

37 St. Louis County police officers with minor injuries; zero requiring overnight hospitalization.

 

About 20 civilians sent to hospitals from protest sites.

 

One person shot and wounded by St. Louis County police officer on Aug. 13, after, police said, he pointed a gun at an officer.

 

On Aug. 14, a man was surrounded by protesters and punched in the chest by one. An ambulance came to the scene. The victims identity and condition were unknown.

 

10 people injured during a high-speed chase that ended in a collision on Aug. 17. That night, two adults suffered gunshot wounds, and two children were treated for tear gas exposure; all were treated and released.

 

On Aug. 19, three people were treated at hospitals, two for breathing difficulties and one for minor injuries.

 

On Nov. 6, a college student was beaten at a protest planning meeting after some people accused him of using his smartphone to broadcast a meeting that was supposed to be private.

 

28 businesses were reported to have been burglarized on Aug. 10, the first night of unrest after the Brown shooting. Many had glass windows shattered: Sprint Store, McDonalds, Beauty Town, STL Cordless |Taco Bell, Walmart, Walgreens, Toys R Us |The Original Reds BBQ, Family Dollar, St. Vincent de Paul Thrift Store, Ferguson Laundry| Metro PCS, Shoe Carnival, Zisser Tire & Auto, AutoZone, Foot Locker, Ross Dress for Less, Hibbett Sports, Kmart, DTLR Inc, Phillips 66, Meineke, Nu Fashion Beauty, Boost Mobile, Party City, Princess Beauty Supply/ Sams Meat Market and Liquor.

 

One business in the city of St. Louis was burglarized in a targeted operation by looters on Aug. 11: Shoe Carnival.

 

Insurance claims from property damage due to Ferguson protests reported to the state totaled $250,000 after the first month of unrest; one prominent local insurance adjuster who processed three claims on West Florissant Avenue estimated damages were no more than $5 million, which included $1 million to $1.5 million for the burned QuikTrip.

 

By comparison, damage to property in the 2001 St. Louis hailstorm: $2 billion.

 

And the 2012 St. Louis hailstorm: $1.2 billion.

 

Another way of looking at it is that the two St. Louis weather events combined caused 640 times as much damage as the unrest after the Brown shooting so far.

 

More perspective: In 1992, the damage to property in Los Angeles from riots and some 7,000 fires was about $1 billion.

 

Windows broken in St. Louis during protests: 25, according to St. Louis police Chief Sam Dotson.

 

Flags stolen and burned in Shaw neighborhood after the VonDerrit Myers Jr. shooting: At least two.

 

The Washington Post described Ferguson as a burned-out symbol of racial and class divisions in America.

 

Number of buildings destroyed by fire: One.

 

That was QuikTrip, hit by vandals Aug. 10. On Sept. 23, tension flared when a memorial to Brown burned. Someone poured gasoline around the outside of the Whistle Stop Café, a former train depot and a historic Ferguson site off South Florissant Road, and lit it on fire. The cafe had minor damage but never closed.

 

Arrests: About 400.

 

Why the disproportionate images of violence in St. Louis?

 

238 journalists receive daily updates from the St. Louis County police spokesman.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/ferguson-by-the-numbers-breakdown-since-protests-began/article_5ec448a4-3f08-5861-813c-d03bed1c9784.html

[Airbrush]

The grand jury will not indict Ofcr Wilson, so a riot.

 

Michael Brown getting killed is only the straw that broke the camel's back. The majority black communities have a long history of grievances against their majority white police forces. The fact that Ofcr Wilson was justified in self defense does not erase decades of mistreatment of young black males.

 

Cops should wear video cameras.

 

Ofcr Wilson should have shot Brown in the legs.

 

Brown should not have acted like a raging idiot.

 

Young black males need to be recruited to law enforcement so the ethnic balance in the police force is comparable to the community they serve. If they don't want to be cops in their own community, then they need to be paid more, enough to motivate them to become good cops for their own communities.

[Ten oz]

The grand jury will not indict Ofcr Wilson, so a riot.

 

Young black males need to be recruited to law enforcement so the ethnic balance in the police force is comparable to the community they serve. If they don't want to be cops in their own community, then they need to be paid more, enough to motivate them to become good cops for their own communities.

Race aside. In major cities across the United States most police officers do not live in the communities they police. That is a problem. Not thee problem but something that should be addressed. I believe a person would be less likely to tear gas a street if they live on it.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/most-police-dont-live-in-the-cities-they-serve/

[MigL]

So Zapatos, I watch the news here in Canada, but can you tell us what the situation is really like in Ferguson after the GJ verdict ?

 

Airbrush, I've heard it many times that police should shoot for the legs. That is impractical, most cops are not marksmen, and are trained to shoot at the largest part of the body when a perp is charging/threatening them.

That being said Brown was hit in the head, so it must have been close enough that if he had wanted to, the officer could have just wounded him.

Even wearing video cams wouldn't solve the problem, as the PD could always cite that its an ongoing investigation and the video cannot be released ( that doesn't mean your suggestions wouldn't help ).

 

I wonder if the officer involved will at least, lose his job ? Or maybe a civil suit ?

[zapatos]

Leading up to the Grand Jury decision it seemed as if everyone was talking about it, and expecting violence. While there were certainly exceptions, whether one thought Darren Wilson should be indicted or not was primarily split along racial lines. To me it felt just like it did when the police who beat Rodney King were found not guilty.

 

There were two main areas of protest on Monday night; on the main road that runs through Ferguson and was the main site where most of the previous protests were held, and near the Shaw neighborhood where an armed black teenager was shot and killed by an off duty policeman working security in October.

 

In the city of Ferguson it quickly turned violent with stores being looted and burned, cars burned, and many guns fired, although none apparently by police. Only one person wounded by gunfire and no one killed. It was far and away the most violent protest since Michael Brown was killed.

 

In the Shaw neighborhood the protesters were very well organized and non-violent, but very effective. At one point the demonstrators blocked a major highway. The police lined up in riot gear but did not approach the protesters, and the protesters did not cause any damage. After about 45 minutes or so, the protesters began to all move off the highway and allow traffic to resume.

 

I work with a woman who lives in Ferguson and she told me that it was a very scary night. Guns being fired, people rushing around, sirens, and all the noises you'd expect. She said she didn't sleep at all during the night. She seemed quite shook up when I saw her at work.

 

There were a number of peaceful protests during the day today in various locations. Again highways were shut down, and again the protesters cleared out on their own after a short while. Thus far tonight it seems to be much more calm around here.

 

As for me, I drove to work this morning, about 10 minutes from Ferguson, with no real concerns about my safety. There didn't seem to be animosity at all between whites and blacks where I work, although I suspect I know how people felt about the Grand Jury decision just based on race.

 

There are a lot of white people protesting with the blacks. While I wouldn't want to be around Ferguson at night, that is primarily due to the fact that I might get tear gassed or hit by rubber bullets. This seems to be primarily an issue between blacks and law enforcement, not between blacks and whites.

Edited November 26, 2014 by zapatos

[Airbrush]

Officer Wilson will most likely lose his job, and probably we will see a civil suit.

[zapatos]

The talk around here is that he will not lose his job as he was not indicted, although I cannot imagine him staying around. The risk would be too great to him. I imagine a civil suit is just around the corner.

[Airbrush]

This seems to be primarily an issue between blacks and law enforcement, not between blacks and whites.

 

That is true. In order to protest, you need to be certain about something. I think the only thing the protesters and rioters are certain about is they have felt mistreated by the police over an intollerable long time. However, they are not certain about the facts surrounding the shooting. That has become a spectacular event to rally their frustration. They WANT to believe Brown was a good guy, shot for no good reason, by a no good cop, creating a myth to believe in.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Airbrush

[zapatos]

Agreed. I don't think there is any doubt that blacks are treated less well than whites by law enforcement, and for whatever reason this particular shooting struck a chord and people are venting their frustration.

 

If Wilson's testimony is to be believed, then it sounds like the shooting was inevitable and justified (although the way the confrontation began seems bizarre to me). But this particular man dying is not what this is about. It is only the catalyst. This is more about the relationship between law enforcement and the minority population.

[Airbrush]

The shooting was magnified by the stupid explanation that Ofc Wilson gave. He had a long time to rehearse this long-awaited statement and he could not fit a tiny phrase of sympathy for Brown's family. He could easily have said that he felt he had no choice but to use deadly force against Brown, but he WISHED that he didn't have to. He could have said "I'm sorry it happened the way it did, and I hope his family and friends could forgive me." But like the huge idiot that Ofc Wilson is, he had to sound totally indifferent, satisfied he killed a raging beast, he did not care in the least, and therefore he will be the target in a civil case, and will face death threats for the rest of his life. What a fool. His career as a cop on the beat is terminated by putting his foot in his mouth at a most critical moment.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Airbrush

[davidivad]

my sister has several stores she manages in st louis area.

she was not affected by the aftermath but there is definitely enough tension to cut it with a knife.

the situation just keeps getting more and more polarized.

she was talking to a customer who was a young educated black lady recently who said she is tired of all the crap and is moving out.

this is the opposite of what ferguson needs.

but what do you do with it?

[MigL]

What are your thoughts on what was said by R. Giuliani the other day ?

 

To paraphrase...

' African-Americans are outraged at the shooting death of a young black male by a white Police officer, yet 93 % of black Americans are killed by other black Americans.

Where is the outrage for those deaths ? Why are they being ignored ? "

 

Is the implication that this is more about the opportunity to air Black vs. White grievences ( and raise some hell ), than about Brown's death/killing ?

[zapatos]

What are your thoughts on what was said by R. Giuliani the other day ?

 

To paraphrase...

' African-Americans are outraged at the shooting death of a young black male by a white Police officer, yet 93 % of black Americans are killed by other black Americans.

Where is the outrage for those deaths ? Why are they being ignored ? "

 

Is the implication that this is more about the opportunity to air Black vs. White grievences ( and raise some hell ), than about Brown's death/killing ?

I think you correctly interpreted what Rudy was implying. I also think that Rudy is guilty of using a red herring. Whether or not African Americans are outraged (or should be outraged) by the number of blacks killed by other blacks is irrelevant to what happened to Michael Brown.

 

I don't believe blacks kill blacks because of their race. I believe they kill blacks because they are the people they encounter when doing whatever it is they are doing that leads to murder.

 

The people who are protesting over Michael Brown are doing so because they feel they are being targeted due to their race. It is one thing if two criminals try to kill each other. It is quite another if you are being killed because of a trait that is only apparent when the lights are on.

 

Most financial crime is white on white crime. I'd like Rudy to explain where the outrage is for those crimes. Why are they being ignored?

[Endy0816]

my sister has several stores she manages in st louis area.

she was not affected by the aftermath but there is definitely enough tension to cut it with a knife.

the situation just keeps getting more and more polarized.

she was talking to a customer who was a young educated black lady recently who said she is tired of all the crap and is moving out.

this is the opposite of what ferguson needs.

but what do you do with it?

 

Same thing occurred after the Rodney King riots. :/

 

At least these weren't as bad, only good thing you can say about it though in light of the potential long term consequences. Ideally we see some form of political change, though barriers might prevent this.

 

The shooting was magnified by the stupid explanation that Ofc Wilson gave. He had a long time to rehearse this long-awaited statement and he could not fit a tiny phrase of sympathy for Brown's family. He could easily have said that he felt he had no choice but to use deadly force against Brown, but he WISHED that he didn't have to. He could have said "I'm sorry it happened the way it did, and I hope his family and friends could forgive me." But like the huge idiot that Ofc Wilson is, he had to sound totally indifferent, satisfied he killed a raging beast, he did not care in the least, and therefore he will be the target in a civil case, and will face death threats for the rest of his life. What a fool. His career as a cop on the beat is terminated by putting his foot in his mouth at a most critical moment.

 

Honestly, I would be fresh out of sympathy after almost being indicted for murder. Considering everything altogether he would probably be facing the same troubles either way. We've already got people being arrested for plotting to kill the prosecutor and police chief.

[overtone]

This seems to be primarily an issue between blacks and law enforcement, not between blacks and whites.

The "law enforcement" in Ferguson is white, and represents the interests of white people primarily.

 

 

 

If Wilson's testimony is to be believed, then it sounds like the shooting was inevitable and justified (although the way the confrontation began seems bizarre to me).

Wilson shot at the guy 12 times, hitting him at least 6 times. The fatal wound was from a bullet entering through the top of the skull, at some distance from the patrol car and Wilson, at least 7 seconds after the initial shot in the patrol car.

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I would be fresh out of sympathy after almost being indicted for murder.

But grateful for not being indicted for manslaughter - right?

Edited November 28, 2014 by overtone

[zapatos]

The "law enforcement" in Ferguson is white, and represents the interests of white people primarily.

Your continued use of uninformed speculation as fact in this thread is getting tiresome.

 

Wilson shot at the guy 12 times, hitting him at least 6 times. The fatal wound was from a bullet entering through the top of the skull, at some distance from the patrol car and Wilson, at least 7 seconds after the initial shot in the patrol car.

An argument consists of more than just repeating evidence that has been made public.

 

But grateful for not being indicted for manslaughter - right?

You clearly seem to have made up your mind long before the evidence came in.

[davidivad]

here is a viewpoint from a relative around the area.

 

he said that it was the usual bull**** that happens for the hood. the guy was a big thug that was painted up as a kid on his way through school. he said he was upset about what had happened to the cop until he saw his response when he actually got an interview. he said the cop came off like a typical cop when he said he wouldnt have done anything differently.

there was also mention that the panthers might be involved with some of the events taking place.

 

this was from an older white male.

here is my view as a once resident of the area.

for those who do not know, there are areas in st lois where a white guy walking alone is a sitting duck. i know this because ive been pegged with a 40 oz on the way to the bus stop and have been robbed of my riley burger before too. in certain areas it is just this way. if a cop comes into the hood he is noticed let alone being white. now when a white cop comes into the hood and shoots a man, there's a problem. this can be proven by the disrespect given to the cop. as typical hoodlems they were strutting the street and had just scored some materials to roll some dubs. so they werent exactly obeying the law in any sense of the word. however, this is not the point. if the police department was involved in the community, there would have been at least some form of open dialogue to work with. it is not the cops fault but the system's fault for allowing such a dangerous situation to persist. trained in security myself, i would however recognized the area i was in as a place you respond in numbers not alone. part of the reason you see so many cops when you get pulled over is because it creates a more controllable situation. if the officer was part of a community program that put a name with his face with at least a few people, then everyone would know who he is. that makes him a real person instead of an ousider white or black. i dont think we can afford all the cameras though it would be a great idea. we may actually have to work the problem this time.

Edited November 28, 2014 by davidivad

[Airbrush]

Honestly, I would be fresh out of sympathy after almost being indicted for murder. Considering everything altogether he would probably be facing the same troubles either way. We've already got people being arrested for plotting to kill the prosecutor and police chief.

 

It is one thing to feel sympathy and another to express sympathy for political points. When Brown's father was questioned how he felt after hearing Wilson's explanation, his response was "He is a murderer." The mother's response, "It sounded like [Ofcr Wilson] wanted to kill my son." Do you think Wilson had some coaching from an attorney about what he should say to the world? He sadly missed a golden opportunity to turn down the heat by acting totally indifferent to the results of his actions. He said he has a clear conscience, just like any hardened murderer has a clear conscience. Charles Manson had a clear conscience.

 

Whatever plotting there is to kill the prosecutor and police chief, more is awaiting Ofcr Wilson. Now he can live in fear for the remainder of his life, thanks, in part, to his stupid "clear conscience" declaration to the world.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Airbrush

[Ten oz]

I think you correctly interpreted what Rudy was implying. I also think that Rudy is guilty of using a red herring. Whether or not African Americans are outraged (or should be outraged) by the number of blacks killed by other blacks is irrelevant to what happened to Michael Brown.

 

I don't believe blacks kill blacks because of their race. I believe they kill blacks because they are the people they encounter when doing whatever it is they are doing that leads to murder.

 

The people who are protesting over Michael Brown are doing so because they feel they are being targeted due to their race. It is one thing if two criminals try to kill each other. It is quite another if you are being killed because of a trait that is only apparent when the lights are on.

 

Most financial crime is white on white crime. I'd like Rudy to explain where the outrage is for those crimes. Why are they being ignored?

I think it is important to note that whites overwhelming kill whites. Just as most black murder victims die at the hands of blacks most white victims die at the hands of whites. So while I see this issue of black on black crime referenced a lot in these discussions you correctly have identified it as irrelevant. Most all crime is localized and thus will be Asian on Asian, White on White, and etc. To sepetate out Black on Black for discussion only serves as an attempt to redirect the issue and avoid debate. A bait and switch.

 

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2012.xls

[Endy0816]

If deadly force was authorized and justified then one should have a clear conscience about having employed it. Save your sympathy for the living, perhaps regret the circumstances but not the act itself. Within reason you will have acted to the best of your knowledge in the fashion your society at some macro level desires. Honestly, it probably was an unwise statement, but maybe we need an honest expression of feelings instead of the balm of political correctness we've been using. We've made a great deal of social progress, but we still have these negative undercurrents.

 

Honestly I'd like the DA's to grow a pair and stop allowing these reverse show trials to occur. Be frank with people about the situation and let it move on to civil proceedings. Let that be justice and maybe people won't feel that vigilante justice is the answer.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Endy0816

[dimreepr]

Only one person actually knows if Michael Brown was murdered or killed (accidentally).

 

Only one person has had the privilege to explain his actions.

 

The historical evidence would suggest the wrong person had that privilege.

[Airbrush]

If deadly force was authorized and justified then one should have a clear conscience about having employed it. Save your sympathy for the living, perhaps regret the circumstances but not the act itself.

 

Certainly regret the circumstances. Make any attempt at appeasement. Soldiers coming back from war are often WITHOUT a "clear conscience" in a similar kill or be killed situation. That is called PTSD. Ofcr Wilson comes across as a robocop, unfazed, without pity, and ready to kill more.

 

The solution is to recruit young black men onto the police force, and pay whatever it takes to make them WANT to serve their community. The police force should have the same ethnic proportions as the community.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Airbrush

[overtone]

The "law enforcement" in Ferguson is white, and represents the interests of white people primarily.

Your continued use of uninformed speculation as fact in this thread is getting tiresome.

Your reaffirmation of my informed observations has been redundant all along.

 

The white people of the Ferguson area have been reinforcing the obvious in apparent obliviousness every time they say anything on the record here. That marks the center of the problem faced by anyone trying to "do something" about the racial politics of Ferguson in particular, the St Louis area in general, or God help us the US as a country.

 

After WWII the conquerers of Germany set about - deliberately and expensively - trying to root out and disable the psychiatric disorder underlying the Nazi political movement. The Germans had been taken over by a craziness, and beating them militarily did not restore them to sanity. This "deNazification" apparently did some good. The US after the Civil War was not in a position to do that in the Confederacy, more is the pity.

 

 

An argument consists of more than just repeating evidence that has been made public.

That depends on what is being argued against.

 

If assertions at odds with the simple known facts of the matter are being made, repetition of those facts is a gentle way of making a reasonable argument, no?

 

 

 

 

If deadly force was authorized and justified then one should have a clear conscience about having employed it.

If as all the evidence indicates Wilson fired eleven shots at a wounded, fleeing, and finally surrendering person, the last of which came in the burst after a three second delay (count three, right?) and were the ones that killed the person, he has no right to a clear conscience.

 

If he panicked, if he lost control of his behavior under the stress of the situation, if his training was inadequate or his mental state overwhelmed or the like, we can forgive him in good conscience ourselves. Especially this if he shows self-awareness and remorse. But his own conscience? One would hope for better.

Edited November 28, 2014 by overtone

[davidivad]

cmon guys, lets not poke each other's eyes out with feather dusters and sharpies.

firstly, everyone that does not live there should go home. they are burning down buildings for their own cause and do not care about the community themselves.

this is a problem as we only have so many places to burn. it is destroying the community as percieved by the residents themselves. they are afraid to stop the violent visitors.

now what do we do since we have removed the capacity of the police?

here is the problem right now.

 

the problem right now is not a black guy shot by a white officer.

its the crowd that took over.

if you dont believe me, then pack up and stay there yourself and see how you like it...

Edited November 29, 2014 by davidivad

[zapatos]

The "law enforcement" in Ferguson is white, and represents the interests of white people primarily.

Please provide evidence that law enforcement in Ferguson represents the interests of white people primarily.

 

 

 

If Wilson's testimony is to be believed, then it sounds like the shooting was inevitable and justified (although the way the confrontation began seems bizarre to me).

Wilson shot at the guy 12 times, hitting him at least 6 times. The fatal wound was from a bullet entering through the top of the skull, at some distance from the patrol car and Wilson, at least 7 seconds after the initial shot in the patrol car.

 

If assertions at odds with the simple known facts of the matter are being made, repetition of those facts is a gentle way of making a reasonable argument, no?

 

Please tell me what assertions I made that are at odds with the simple known facts.

If you were referring to officer Wilson, please tell me what assertions officer Wilson made that are at odds with the simple known facts.

 

And because you must have missed these questions from a previous post, also please answer the following:

 

What was the duration of your stay in the region, and what was your sample size that allowed you to draw your conclusions about the region?

How did you randomly select white people?

Can you give some examples of the flagrant, obvious, in your face racism you saw during your short visit to the region?