Scottish Independence.

[dimreepr]

I, as an Englishman, think an independent Scotland would diminish both Scotland and the rest of the UK.

 

As this is an international community I’m hoping for a more dispassionate perspective, how do you think independence would affect the world, if at all?

[iNow]

I have no preference one way or the other on this particular issue. My only interest is in ensuring my preferred whiskeys/scotches remain available and plentiful and completely avoid disruption.

[dimreepr]

I have no preference one way or the other on this particular issue. My only interest is in ensuring my preferred whiskeys/scotches remain available and plentiful and completely avoid disruption.

 

 

I think you can rest assured that’s one thing that won’t be disrupted.

[MigL]

Independant or not, Scotland will never be a major power in the world of international soccer ( football ).

But then again neither is England !

 

But seriously, as a Canadian having to deal with the constant whining of "the Quebecois", be careful what you wish for.

[Ophiolite]

But seriously, as a Canadian having to deal with the constant whining of "the Quebecois", be careful what you wish for.

Given their French ancestry, shouldn't that be wining, not whining?

[fiveworlds]

I, as an Englishman, think an independent Scotland would diminish both Scotland and the rest of the UK.

 

Why you're all related anyway.

[ajb]

I think Scottish independence would not be a good thing for Scotland nor the rest of the UK. I don't see any convincing argument that being divided puts anyone in a stronger position internationally than being united. The whole argument for independence is based on nationalistic ideas and harks to the romance of a Scotland well gone.

[John Cuthber]

Can we move the border down to about Birmingham, then declare independence?
There are plenty of people in the North of England who have no more desire to be ruled from Westminster than the Scots have.

[Ophiolite]

I think Scottish independence would not be a good thing for Scotland nor the rest of the UK. I don't see any convincing argument that being divided puts anyone in a stronger position internationally than being united. The whole argument for independence is based on nationalistic ideas and harks to the romance of a Scotland well gone.

It is not a question of division, but unity within a modified milieu. Disinterest in, or distaste for, politics is widespread. A major factor in this is the remoteness of the decision making. Smaller units enhance a sense of involvement, allowing local issues to be handled via local solutions.

 

 

John Cuthber suggests moving the border to south of Birmingham: Birmingham may be a little far. However, I strongly suspect that if the vote is Yes, that within a decade Newcastle and the surrounding area will seek to join with Scotland. After all the Geordies are well known as drunken misogynists, with poor diets, whose speech is unintelligible. - so they are obviously Scottish already.

 

Edited August 28, 2014 by Ophiolite

[ajb]

It is not a question of division, but unity within a modified milieu. Disinterest in, or distaste for, politics is widespread. A major factor in this is the remoteness of the decision making. Smaller units enhance a sense of involvement, allowing local issues to be handled via local solutions.

Which is why there is the Scottish Parliament, for Wales the Cynulliad and for the Northern Irish the Northern Ireland Assembly.

 

This opens an obvious question as to why England does not have such devolution? I see no reason why not. The Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should continue, but now pass some of the roles onto the English Parliament, which may or may not be in London.

[CaptainPanic]

Personally, I think it is always easy to be in the political opposition. The Scottish dislike their government in London, and seem to think that it will get better when they have their own government. But I think it will only take them a few years, or a decade at most to start disliking their newly formed government. Then the Highlanders can start an independence movement to split off from the Lowlanders down south, as their minority won't be represented, and the government is listening mostly to the large corporations and the big city dwellers from Edinburgh and Glasgow. Of course, the Western Isles won't just listen to the majority of the Highlands government that live near Inverness. Those highlanders won't represent their interests as well as an independent government of the Western isles...

 

Also, it appears they wish to remain a part of Europe, and since Brussels makes more and more of our laws, they won't get all that much independence of government.

 

Scotland already has a strong cultural identity, and none of it is being oppressed/repressed/suppressed (pick whichever is correct) by anyone. So, according to me, that is no reason for independence.

 

The only real reason I can see for independence is the oil and gas (and maybe the fisheries, but the North Sea is practically empty of fish anyway). So, the only way Scottish independence makes sense to me is from the point of view of short-term greed. And indeed, when I speak to Scottish people, this is a major argument for them, which is rather sad. That oil will run out though.

 

[edit] It appears I did not actually answer the OP's question, how this would affec the world. Economically it wouldn't affect anyone outside the UK. For tourism, little would change either. NATO might lose some territory, but I think that the NATO countries will talk Scotland into being a member, and keeping the military bases where they are now, even if that means there are UK troops there (currently this is discussed only in the UK, with no pressure from outside yet). The only real issue I see is that other groups may want to follow this example. There are only dozens more independence movements in Europe. In most cases, I think these people don't have a strong argument for independence, for similar reasons as I said above for Scotland...

[Ophiolite]

Which is why there is the Scottish Parliament, for Wales the Cynulliad and for the Northern Irish the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Whose powers are limited. Limited. Power should be devolved to as low a level in the political hierarchy as possible. This is an informed opinion that could be mistaken, but it is one in which I have a passionate belief and commitment, not just for Scotland.

 

A significant segment of the Scots feel a lingering resentment over the loss of their sovereignty as a consequence of the ill-fated Darien Project that bankrupted the nation. The Scottish psyche needs independence. (If this were not the case the traditional rioting at England-Scotland football matches, which led to them being discontinued, would not have occurred. The English never understood that these were not football matches, but a continuation of war by others means, to paraphrase Clausewitz.)

 

Any voter who votes on the basis of an economic argument (reference Captain Panic's comments on oil) is a fool. The vote is a matter of culture and principle. This is not a vote for what may happen in the next five or ten years: this is a vote for the next century or two.

[pears]

Which is why there is the Scottish Parliament, for Wales the Cynulliad and for the Northern Irish the Northern Ireland Assembly.

 

This opens an obvious question as to why England does not have such devolution? I see no reason why not. The Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland should continue, but now pass some of the roles onto the English Parliament, which may or may not be in London.

 

For English devolution, given the size of the population, I think you would have to more than one English Parliament, more likely several regional bodies for the North of England, Midlands, South West etc.

 

On the Scotland question, I don't think there would be much effect worldwide. Personally I am fairly impartial (I mean if they want independence then go for it) but I have slight leanings towards union. I do wonder how much a split would cost and would it be worth it?

Edited August 28, 2014 by pears

[imatfaal]

I, as an Englishman, think an independent Scotland would diminish both Scotland and the rest of the UK.

 

As this is an international community I’m hoping for a more dispassionate perspective, how do you think independence would affect the world, if at all?

 

Another Englishman agrees wholeheartedly.

 

I have no preference one way or the other on this particular issue. My only interest is in ensuring my preferred whiskeys/scotches remain available and plentiful and completely avoid disruption.

 

whiskEy is Irish, American or from even further afield; Whisky - the good stuff - is from Scotland; or possibly Wales (amazing stuff - try some Penderyn). There are anomalies but Scotch tends to be Whisky - and a marvellous thing it is. /pendantry

 

Why you're all related anyway.

 

Really? Better tell that to the geneticists who can show widely varying ancestries for those in different parts of the UK; as the Northern edge of the Roman Empire and a prize for Norse/Norman conquests for many years the UK and Ireland actually has quite diverse origins

 

Can we move the border down to about Birmingham, then declare independence?

There are plenty of people in the North of England who have no more desire to be ruled from Westminster than the Scots have.

 

Does that not lead to a natural end in which the city of London secedes from the rest of the country, is briefly the wealthiest state in the world before descending into anarchy due to the severe compression of all those massive egos.

 

It is not a question of division, but unity within a modified milieu. Disinterest in, or distaste for, politics is widespread. A major factor in this is the remoteness of the decision making. Smaller units enhance a sense of involvement, allowing local issues to be handled via local solutions.

 

 

John Cuthber suggests moving the border to south of Birmingham: Birmingham may be a little far. However, I strongly suspect that if the vote is Yes, that within a decade Newcastle and the surrounding area will seek to join with Scotland. After all the Geordies are well known as drunken misogynists, with poor diets, whose speech is unintelligible. - so they are obviously Scottish already.

 

disinterest?

 

And Newcastle join with Scotland? Break from the rest of England in order to declare open hostilities on those north of the border perhaps - but join with...never.

[John Cuthber]

 

Does that not lead to a natural end in which the city of London secedes from the rest of the country, is briefly the wealthiest state in the world before descending into anarchy due to the severe compression of all those massive egos.

Sounds like a good idea.

Incidentally, I'm not sure how rich they would be.

It's widely touted that the UK has to maintain low taxation to stop those in the finance industry buggering off.

Well, for a start, most of them wouldn't get far without a translator but that's not the important point.

 

The implication of that "threat" is that the finance industry is "The Big Industry" in the UK.

Everyone "knows" that the UK's manufacturing industry went down the toilet in about 1970.

 

But that's a misrepresentation (no prizes for guessing who is maintaining it, but here's a hint- it's why I don't wish to be ruled from Westminster)

Here's the figures from wiki

"In 2011 the UK manufacturing sector generated approximately £140,539 million in gross value added"

"The UK financial services industry added gross value of £116,363 million to the UK economy in 2011"

from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom

 

Yep Our old, tired, run-down manufacturing industry still makes more money than the financial sector.

 

 

Incidentally, re. "After all the Geordies are well known as drunken misogynists, with poor diets, whose speech is unintelligible. - so they are obviously Scottish already."

Have you met the Mancs, the Scousers and the Brummies?

[Ophiolite]

Incidentally, re. "After all the Geordies are well known as drunken misogynists, with poor diets, whose speech is unintelligible. - so they are obviously Scottish already."

Have you met the Mancs, the Scousers and the Brummies?

Amateurs laddie, pure amateurs!

[tentacle]

index of hapiness would grow in Scotland. they have right to choose, imho UK and commonwealth are useless. its legacy of Brittish empire.

i also hope to see Barcelona as capital.

[pears]

index of hapiness would grow in Scotland. they have right to choose, imho UK and commonwealth are useless. its legacy of Brittish empire.

i also hope to see Barcelona as capital.

 

Barcelona as the capital of Scotland? Now there's a thought!

[fiveworlds]

Really? Better tell that to the geneticists who can show widely varying ancestries for those in different parts of the UK; as the Northern edge of the Roman Empire and a prize for Norse/Norman conquests for many years the UK and Ireland actually has quite diverse origins

 

yet all of them on the same two tiny islands for 1-2 thousand years.

Ah right the native gauls who were taken over by the romans. etc etc nevertheless its mostly the same families anyway. Don't forget Rome used to conscript troops from the gaul areas they took over. But the gauls were all related anyway.

Edited August 30, 2014 by fiveworlds

[iNow]

whiskEy is Irish, American or from even further afield; Whisky - the good stuff - is from Scotland; or possibly Wales (amazing stuff - try some Penderyn). There are anomalies but Scotch tends to be Whisky - and a marvellous thing it is. /pendantry

Many thanks for the quick tutorial, my good man. May the road always rise to meet your feet and the wind always be at your back.

[Ophiolite]

 

And Newcastle join with Scotland? Break from the rest of England in order to declare open hostilities on those north of the border perhaps - but join with...never.

A Geordie just married my daughter, so I think that demonstrates the inaccuracy of your assertion.

 

However, the principal argument for independence is geological. The Iapetus suture, marking the line of contact between two tectonic plates where the Iapetus Ocean used to be, runs along the English border. Avalonia for the Avalonians.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Ophiolite

[MigL]

So there really was an Avalon ?

[imatfaal]

A Geordie just married my daughter, so I think that demonstrates the inaccuracy of your assertion.

 

However, the principal argument for independence is geological. The Iapetus suture, marking the line of contact between two tectonic plates where the Iapetus Ocean used to be, runs along the English border. Avalonia for the Avalonians.

 

As a southern contingent of a long line of Northumbrians I will stick to my guns; the border reivers on both sides have never been immune to the charm and beauty of the enemy

 

Avalonia - so we sassenachs get to join up with the north east coast of north america, southern eire, the low countries and northern germany (and MiGl - I had to look it up as well). Good literature, good universities, good skiing, good beer and a generally left of centre pluralism. Yep - I will sign up; even better if we could persuade the Scots to joins as well

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalonia

[Delbert]

I don't understand this independence business.

 

I can understand if Scotland wants independence, but then to say it wants to join a larger organisation with ever more rules that'll eventually control their every move, I can't understand.

[CaptainPanic]

I don't understand this independence business.

 

I can understand if Scotland wants independence, but then to say it wants to join a larger organisation with ever more rules that'll eventually control their every move, I can't understand.

 

This.

 

Ironically, the UK has its own UKIP (UK Independence Party), to become more independent from Brussels.

 

Looking at the last European elections, UKIP was very popular in England, but not so much in Scotland, where the Scottish National party won. However, the Scottish national party is a member of The Greens (or: European Free Alliance), who are rather pro-European (although they are against further centralization). It seems therefore that the above quote (joining the EU) is supported by the population of Scotland.

 

It appears to me then that the Scottish don't really want indepencence. So maybe it is just greed after all. Maybe they expect wealth from oil and gas like in Norway?

 

... or this is just another successful populist political movement. Simple ideas. Good oneliners. Based on emotions.