Scottish Independence.

[John Cuthber]

 

Stock markets are already falling to be followed by the government.

 

Is the sky falling too?

All the referendum does is say they have to do something to split the to groups. It doesn't say what they split and what they choose to continue to share.

The outcome might not be very different from the status quo (though I think it will be pretty different).

Stock markets fall + rise like the fashion in skirts. If they didn't drop from time to time, they couldn't rebound and give investors a chance to make lots of money.

Perhaps I will buy some shares while they are cheap.

[MigL]

Well I don't live on your fair island, but Man U. is my team ( they had better shape up or I'm going back to watching Italian Serie A ), so I do take an interest.

In your opinion,what are Cameron's chances of surviving if its a positive or very close vote ?

We had a similar problem with Quebec here in a 90s referendum. Maybe the French-Canadians are more wily than the Scots. They don't actually plan to separate, but use the ongoing threat to extort government money and 'special' unconstitutional ( actually a charter, wouldn't wanna be called muddled again ) privileges from the rest of the country.

[John Cuthber]

Since all 3 major parties are hoping for a "No" vote, they all look equally bad if the Scots vote "Yes".

Cameron will survive that with no problem.

What happens at the next election will de interesting, and depend largely on how the economy is doing at the time.

That, in turn will depend on, among other things, the outcome of the Scottish decision.

But if Scottish voters (many of whom are Left wing) are not involved in the next Westminster election it will make Cameron's job easier.

[Delbert]

Latest poll is 51% to 49% in favour of independence.

Earlier in this thread, I recall someone remarking that they never get the government they want. My response to that was that that is democracy.

 

But with this Scotland business, and if the voting is reflected in the above poll, then a very large percentage of the Scottish population will be dissatisfied. And it won't just be the wrong government they'll be complaining about that can be ousted at the next election, it'll be the wrong constitution that can't be reversed! Recipe for a revolution?

 

This could get ugly.

That's one way of looking at it, I would use the word exciting. Yes, I'm looking forward to it.

 

Come on you Scots, vote 'yes'.

[DimaMazin]

 

That's one way of looking at it, I would use the word exciting. Yes, I'm looking forward to it.

 

Come on you Scots, vote 'yes'.

They have a choice when say "no". They have no choice when say "yes". Remember your closed door.

[MigL]

Well Cameron does seem a little worried.

He's off to Scotland to rally support and is flying the blue/white at his residence.

[John Cuthber]

Well Cameron does seem a little worried.

He's off to Scotland to rally support and is flying the blue/white at his residence.

Indeed.

Many people in Scotland are understandably annoyed at what they see as "A bunch of Westminster politicians telling them what to do"

David Cameron's response is to send a bunch of politicians (of all parties) from Westminster to tell the Scots what to do.

 

Some people say he's out of touch.

[DimaMazin]

I see no sense to be free from scientific empire. It is good example that Cuba is free from USA.

[CaptainPanic]

Many people in Scotland are understandably annoyed at what they see as "A bunch of Westminster politicians telling them what to do"

 

Many people in the Scottish Highlands will be understandably annoyed at what they see as "A bunch of Edinburgh politicians telling them what to do"

Just my prediction of the situation in 20 years from now, if the YES camp wins.

 

My prediction for the referendum is a NO though. Many people saying YES in the polls will vote NO in the referendum, out of fear for the consequences. The unknown can be more terrifying than a known problem such as a bunch of Westminster politicians telling them what to do.

[Delbert]

Many people in Scotland are understandably annoyed at what they see as "A bunch of Westminster politicians telling them what to do"

Well, they'll be having some group telling them what to do. And at the moment, if they vote yes, they'll have a bunch who want to use a foreign currency like (as someone said previously) some underdeveloped country. I think they need to think about that one: they'll be a country that doesn't have, and apparently no intention of having, a currency of its own. And those leading the 'yes' campaign are apparently quite happy and content with such an outcome.

 

And just to add to the certainty, the owning country say quite clearly they can't use said currency. If that's not a recipe for serious financial problems, I don't know what is. And I think we all know: It's the economy, stupid.

[John Cuthber]

I don't know how to break this to you gently, but, since money is entirely imaginary, it really doesn't matter what you use.

They can just stick the word "Scottish" in front of every reference to "pound" in any relevant bank account.

[dimreepr]

I don't know how to break this to you gently, but, since money is entirely imaginary, it really doesn't matter what you use.

They can just stick the word "Scottish" in front of every reference to "pound" in any relevant bank account.

 

 

 

Indeed, they could use deep fried mars bars. The only real winner in a yes vote would be the SNP, which seems to me, to be the real agenda.

[John Cuthber]

 

 

 

Indeed, they could use deep fried mars bars. The only real winner in a yes vote would be the SNP, which seems to me, to be the real agenda.

On what basis do you rule out the idea that the people of Scotland might also benefit?

I accept there would be major upheaval but that will settle down.

It reminds me of the reunification of Germany- people said that would be impossible.

It worked.

[dimreepr]

I certainly don’t rule out the Scots benefiting and maybe England would also benefit, who knows what the future will bring. But without prescience the future would seem better served without changing what seems to work now.

 

Having said that, the contraction of empire, given history, seems dependent on size; the bigger the empire the smaller it’s eventual contraction.

[John Cuthber]

I certainly don’t rule out the Scots benefiting and maybe England would also benefit, who knows what the future will bring. But without prescience the future would seem better served without changing what seems to work now.

 

Having said that, the contraction of empire, given history, seems dependent on size; the bigger the empire the smaller it’s eventual contraction.

To whom does it seem to work?

[Mr.Zurich92]

Scotland should vote yes. Their GDP per capita is higher than an person living in England.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Mr.Zurich92

[MigL]

Without knowing the specific details of separation, I don't think I can say whether it would be good or bad for their economy.

Internationally, as long as Scotland remains part of the EU and its influence, they don't really need England.

I do however, think England would be diminished on the world stage after a Scottish separation.

[DimaMazin]

Scotland should vote yes. Their GDP per capita is higher than an person living in England.

I have no doubt economic war will diminish that.

[John Cuthber]

Without knowing the specific details of separation, I don't think I can say whether it would be good or bad for their economy.

Internationally, as long as Scotland remains part of the EU and its influence, they don't really need England.

I do however, think England would be diminished on the world stage after a Scottish separation.

It is far from clear that Scotland would be part of the EU.

But, whatever we think about it, the decision lies with Scotland.

At least the current UK let them vote on it, and it seems most of them favour leaving.

[Delbert]

I don't know how to break this to you gently, but, since money is entirely imaginary, it really doesn't matter what you use.

Think you're mixing definitions here. Clearly what one uses is open to agreement and can technically be anything. But what everyone agrees to use represents human effort and is called money. To suggest money is imaginary can only render human effort also imaginary, which is ludicrous.

 

Cheapen money by (say) printing the stuff (QE I think is the description used in polite company), and you do nothing more than cheapen your, mine and everybody else's labour and effort - not to mention blood sweat and tears.

 

And for Scotland to use someone else's money simply renders the value of their effort and labour entirely dependent on a foreign country's economy. Should the foreign county's currency collapse, Scotland's currency, and doubtless economy, would collapse also.

 

As a general view, if they want to go independent, then just go. Identify your own assets, create your own money and go. But to continue to use the currency of the county you want independence from is, as far as I can see, an admission that independence wouldn't work. Indeed, such an arrangement is not independence.

[dimreepr]

To whom does it seem to work?

 

 

 

It seems to work for me and mine, not perfectly I admit, but well enough that we don’t face a daily struggle to merely survive.

[DimaMazin]

Of course in independent Scotland the officials will have high salaries due to oil and gas. But simple people will be more poor like in Russia.

[John Cuthber]

 

 

 

It seems to work for me and mine, not perfectly I admit, but well enough that we don’t face a daily struggle to merely survive.

If it doesn't seem that way to 50+% of the voters then they will change it.

Of course in independent Scotland the officials will have high salaries due to oil and gas. But simple people will be more poor like in Russia.

So, you are not predicting any change?

Think you're mixing definitions here. Clearly what one uses is open to agreement and can technically be anything. But what everyone agrees to use represents human effort and is called money. To suggest money is imaginary can only render human effort also imaginary, which is ludicrous.

 

Cheapen money by (say) printing the stuff (QE I think is the description used in polite company), and you do nothing more than cheapen your, mine and everybody else's labour and effort - not to mention blood sweat and tears.

 

And for Scotland to use someone else's money simply renders the value of their effort and labour entirely dependent on a foreign country's economy. Should the foreign county's currency collapse, Scotland's currency, and doubtless economy, would collapse also.

 

As a general view, if they want to go independent, then just go. Identify your own assets, create your own money and go. But to continue to use the currency of the county you want independence from is, as far as I can see, an admission that independence wouldn't work. Indeed, such an arrangement is not independence.

Since we presently let the banks create our money (and, as you say, devalue real work) It's entirely possible that the Scots might come up with a better idea.

Introducing a new currency has been done before

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsmark

and it has happened in Scotland too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_Day

 

It's messy, but perfectly possible.

[Dekan]

I can't believe all this. Scotland becoming a foreign country! Passports, Border Controls, separate currency - three centuries of British progress thrown in the dustbin of history! Ruddy nightmare. I blame the EU.

 

Thank God it won't happen. Will it?

[John Cuthber]

Why are you leaping to those conclusions?

Why, for example, should there be passport + border controls there any more than there are between plenty of neighbouring countries?

 

Why do you think it will damage 300 years of progress?

Do you imagine that, for some reason, one side or the other of the border will suddenly forget what has been learned over those years?

 

Scotland is already another country.

Nobody has yet decided what form the separation will take.

 

Blaming the EU makes little, if any, sense. Better to blame the Tories.

Either blame them for decisive policies which alienated many Scots, or simply blame them for agreeing to the referendum.