The causality is violated by the atom model of Quantum Mechanics

[wlad]

In my book “Os Dados que Deus Escondeu” (The Dice God Hid) published in 2003 in Brazil, in the Introduction it is explained why the atom model of Quantum Mechanics violates the causality.

 

 

Advertising link removed

 

Let me give a little idea why there is violation of the causality.

 

According to QM the atom emits photons when the electron changes its position from a level to another. The electron can, for instance, to go from n=1 to n=2, or from n=2 to n=4, or from n=1 to n=3, or from n=4 to n=1, etc.

 

But there is not, in QM, any cause responsible for some specific sequence. For instance, why sometimes does the electron go from n=1 to n=2, and sometimes it goes from n=1 to n=4? From the theory there is no way to find the physical cause for the reason why, from a starting point at the same initial level n=1, sometimes the electron goes to n=2, sometimes it goes to n=3, and sometimes it goes to n=4.

 

Bohr proposed the selection rules so that to describe that “statistical” behavior of the electron. However it is only a mathematical description. The cause of the sequence of the jumpings is not pointed out.

 

Suppose some atom A has the following sequence of six jumpings:
1) From n=1 to n=3
2) From n=3 to n=2
3) From n=2 to n=4
4) From n=4 to n=2
5) From n=2 to n=3
6) From n=3 to n=1
7) … and the sequence is ended, and it starts again, and it is repeated again, and again, and again…

 

What the cause of such a sequence is?

 

 

As Quantum Mechanics works via statistical laws, we dont have to expect any specific sequence when the electron moves from a level to another. According to the model of Quantum Mechanics, the sequence would have to be chaotic, and never repeated again. However, we know from experiments that, for the atom A considered above, the sequence is repeated indefinitely forever.

 

Suppose we take a die, and in the first of its side we write 1, in the second side we write 2, and so one, til to write 6 in the sixth side.

If we start to throw the die, it will give a random sequence of extractions, for instance as follows: 5-3-5-2-1-4-3-6-6-4-2-1-5-4-3-6-2-6-4-5-…

 

 

There is not any repetition in the sequence. This is just the sequence which the model of the atom A, according to Quantum Mechanics, had to have.

 

Suppose that we want to build a die able to give the following sequence:
1) first extraction = 1
2) second extraction = 3
3) third extraction = 2
4) fourth extaction = 4
5) Fifth extraction = 2
6) sixth extraction = 3
7) seventh extraction = 1… , and so we realize that it is the sequence of emission of photons by the atom A.

 

Continuing to throw the die, it will repeat again the same sequence, and the sequence is never stopped.

How can we do it?

 

Well, we can to get it, for instance, by installing an apparatus within the die (with springs and an iron sphere moving within channels), so that it will follow the wished sequence.

 

QUESTION: What is the difference of such die and the atom model of Quantum Mechanics?

 

RESPONSE: The difference is because while the die has a physical device responsible for the extractions always in the same sequence , unlike the atom model of Quantum Mechanics has not any physical device capable to produce always the same sequence of photons emission observed in the experiments.

 

So, Quantum Mechanics is phantasmagoric. It works without physical causes.

[Strange]

 

It works without physical causes.

 

Whatever. It still works.

[wlad]

 

Whatever. It still works.

 

The physical causes are hidden

 

Quantum Mechanics does not work through the whole laws used by the Nature, some fundamental law are missing in QM.

 

And some recent experiments are showing it.

[fiveworlds]

1) first extraction = 1

2) second extraction = 3

3) third extraction = 2

4) fourth extaction = 4

5) Fifth extraction = 2

6) sixth extraction = 3

 

 

Would the nucleus of the atom not be moving thus putting the electrons in a changing magnetic field?

[Strange]

The physical causes are hidden

 

Quantum Mechanics does not work through the whole laws used by the Nature, some fundamental law are missing in QM.

 

Maybe.

 

 

And some recent experiments are showing it.

 

If so, I would have expected there to be major headlines (remember what happened when it was thought that there were superluminal neutrinos?)

 

As there haven't been (and based on your other posts) I assume this isn't true.

[Sensei]

But there is not, in QM, any cause responsible for some specific sequence. For instance, why sometimes does the electron go from n=1 to n=2, and sometimes it goes from n=1 to n=4? From the theory there is no way to find the physical cause for the reason why, from a starting point at the same initial level n=1, sometimes the electron goes to n=2, sometimes it goes to n=3, and sometimes it goes to n=4.

???

 

Electron goes from n=1 to n=2,3,4,5.... infinity (theoretically) when it absorbs energy, usually from photon. And from higher n to lower, when it's releasing photon.

 

Energy of photon (E=h*f) defines to which level electron will be able to go.

 

f.e.

 

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{n_1^2} - \frac{13.6 eV}{n_2^2}[/latex]

 

For n₁=1 and n₂=2

 

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{1} - \frac{13.6 eV}{4} = 10.2 eV[/latex]

 

 

For n₁=2 and n₂=3

 

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{4} - \frac{13.6 eV}{9} = 1.88889 eV[/latex]

This is actually in visible spectrum, wavelength = 656 nm

 

Red spectral line in spectrum of Hydrogen.

 

 

For n₁=2 and n₂=4

 

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{4} - \frac{13.6 eV}{16} = 2.55 eV[/latex]

This is in visible spectrum, wavelength = 486 nm

[fiveworlds]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_%28wave_propagation%29

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

[Sensei]

What the cause of such a sequence is? (....)

So, Quantum Mechanics is phantasmagoric. It works without physical causes.

 

Do you even know how these results are obtained in lab?

 

By ionization of gas in tube by high voltage, then passing it through prism, and then after zooming to screen.

 

If you send photon with specific energy, you will excite atom(s) to specific maximum level.

Excited electrons in atom will emit photons. Some photons might be absorbed by other atoms, and new photons emitted.

Excited electron might not be able to return to initial level, because it's already taken by other electron (after emitting other photon with different energy). They will swap their "locations".

 

Cause is high voltage.

You can build your own spectral lines tube using f.e. glass test tube and fill it by Hydrogen, Oxygen from electrolysis. And connect it to Cockcroft-Walton generator. And see it on your own eyes.

 

Search on eBay for "discharge tube" or "spectral line tube"

f.e.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Spectrum-Discharge-Tube-x-2-Spectrum-Analysis-Gas-Spectrum-Tube-set-of-2-/171435386822

$45 for two tubes is good price IMHO.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Sensei

[wlad]

???

 

Electron goes from n=1 to n=2,3,4,5.... infinity (theoretically) when it absorbs energy, usually from photon. And from higher n to lower, when it's releasing photon.

 

Energy of photon (E=h*f) defines to which level electron will be able to go.

 

f.e.

 

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{n_1^2} - \frac{13.6 eV}{n_2^2}[/latex]

 

For n₁=1 and n₂=2

 

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{1} - \frac{13.6 eV}{4} = 10.2 eV[/latex]

 

 

For n₁=2 and n₂=3

 

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{4} - \frac{13.6 eV}{9} = 1.88889 eV[/latex]

This is actually in visible spectrum, wavelength = 656 nm

 

Red spectral line in spectrum of Hydrogen.

 

 

For n₁=2 and n₂=4

 

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{4} - \frac{13.6 eV}{16} = 2.55 eV[/latex]

This is in visible spectrum, wavelength = 486 nm

 

 

But the question is:

 

1) Suppose the electron is in the level n=1.

 

2) Sometimes the electron has energy E(1) and it goes from n=1 to n=4

 

3) Sometimes the electron has energy E(2), and it goes from n=1 to n=2

 

Why?

 

How can the electron, according to Quantum Mechanics, to have two different energy E(1) and E(2), when it is in the level n=1?

 

As the electron is in the level n=1, according to Quantum Mechanics it must have the same energy level all the time

 

Maybe.

 

 

If so, I would have expected there to be major headlines (remember what happened when it was thought that there were superluminal neutrinos?)

 

As there haven't been (and based on your other posts) I assume this isn't true.

 

Physics World reveals its top 10 breakthroughs for 2011

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2011/dec/16/physics-world-reveals-its-top-10-breakthroughs-for-2011

 

 

 

“To Bohr and others, the process was instantaneous – when you opened the box, the entangled system collapsed into a definite, classical state. This postulate stirred debate in quantum mechanics, But real-time tracking of a quantum system shows that it’s a continuous process, and that we can constantly extract information from the system as it goes from quantum to classical. This level of detail was never considered accessible by the original founders of quantum theory.”

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2014/07/30/watching-schrodingers-cat-die/

 

If you send photon with specific energy, you will excite atom(s) to specific maximum level.

Excited electrons in atom will emit photons. Some photons might be absorbed by other atoms, and new photons emitted.

 

 

Excited electron might not be able to return to initial level, because it's already taken by other electron (after emitting other photon with different energy). They will swap their "locations".

 

 

 

1)

If you send photon with specific energy, you will excite atom(s) to specific maximum level.

Excited electrons in atom will emit photons. Some photons might be absorbed by other atoms, and new photons emitted.

 

The absorption spectrum shows that a photons emitted in a level has always the same wavelenght of the photon absorbed in that level.

 

If your argument was valid, it would be impossible to get the absorption spectrum of the Sun.

 

 

2)

Excited electron might not be able to return to initial level, because it's already taken by other electron (after emitting other photon with different energy). They will swap their "locations".

 

Ionized hydrogen atom has only one electron

However, sometimes it emits photons from n=1 to n=4, and sometimes it emits photons from n=1 to n=2

 

Therefore the hydrogen atom does not obey to the rules of Quantum Mechanics

[Sensei]

2) Sometimes the electron has energy E(1) and it goes from n=1 to n=4

I am repeating:

Electron absorbed photon with energy equal to

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{1^2} - \frac{13.6 eV}{4^2} = \frac{13.6 eV}{1} - \frac{13.6 eV}{16} = 13.6 eV - 0.85 eV = 12.75 eV[/latex]

 

3) Sometimes the electron has energy E(2), and it goes from n=1 to n=2

Electron absorbed photon with energy equal to

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{1^2} - \frac{13.6 eV}{2^2} = \frac{13.6 eV}{1} - \frac{13.6 eV}{4} = 13.6 eV - 3.4 eV = 10.2 eV[/latex]

 

Send photon with energy E = 13.6 eV and you will permanently ionize Hydrogen atom. It means we will have free proton and free electron not bound together.

 

13.6 eV * 1.602*10^-19 = 2.17872E-018 J * 6.022141e23 mol^-1 = 1312056 J/mol = 1312 kJ/mol

And such value you can see on element's ionization table f.e. here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionization_energies_of_the_elements_(data_page)

 

That's energy needed to make plasma from the all Hydrogens in 1 mole of particles.

 

The absorption spectrum shows that a photons emitted in a level has always the same wavelenght of the photon absorbed in that level.

Once particle is proceeding other particle, thus photon emitted will be blue shifted, and other time it's receding other particle, thus photon emitted will be red shifted and won't be able to be absorbed by that 2nd particle. It's relativistic Doppler shift.

This is what makes spectrum lines wider.

The faster particles are moving the wider spectral line.

 

If your argument was valid, it would be impossible to get the absorption spectrum of the Sun.

If you send beam of photons with E = 12.75 eV to Hydrogen, you will receive photons with E=10.2 eV and E=2.55 eV

If you send beam of photons with E = 13.6 eV to Hydrogen, you will receive photons with E=10.2 eV, E=2.55 eV, E=1.88 eV, and many many others that you can calculate by yourself using above equation.

 

See this screen-shot what energy photons you will receive:

 

Ionized hydrogen atom has only one electron

Nope. Ionized Hydrogen atom has no electrons. There is free proton, and somewhere else there is free electron.

 

However, sometimes it emits photons from n=1 to n=4, and sometimes it emits photons from n=1 to n=2

 

Therefore the hydrogen atom does not obey to the rules of Quantum Mechanics

Where did you get such information that atom in ground state will be emitting photons?

 

Nucleus can emit gamma photons, but that's completely different than what we're speaking about.

 

[wlad]

 

Sensei , on 31 August 2014 - 12:12PM , said:

 

Nope. Ionized Hydrogen atom has no electrons. There is free proton, and somewhere else there is free electron.

 

 

 

 

 

Hydrogen atom has 2 electrons in the level s (hydrogen molecule)

 

Ionized hydrogen atom has one electron (the molecule is broken)

I am repeating:

Electron absorbed photon with energy equal to

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{1^2} - \frac{13.6 eV}{4^2} = \frac{13.6 eV}{1} - \frac{13.6 eV}{16} = 13.6 eV - 0.85 eV = 12.75 eV[/latex]

 

Electron absorbed photon with energy equal to

[latex]E = \frac{13.6 eV}{1^2} - \frac{13.6 eV}{2^2} = \frac{13.6 eV}{1} - \frac{13.6 eV}{4} = 13.6 eV - 3.4 eV = 10.2 eV[/latex]

 

 

 

First of all,

electrons do not absorb photons

 

Photons are absorbed by the atoms, in a process of resonance

 

 

Being the electron in the level n=1, the hydrogen atom cannot absorb two different photons with 12.75 eV and 10.2 eV

Edited August 31, 2014 by wlad

[Endy0816]

 

Sensei , on 31 August 2014 - 12:12PM , said:

 

Nope. Ionized Hydrogen atom has no electrons. There is free proton, and somewhere else there is free electron.

 

 

 

 

 

Hydrogen atom has 2 electrons in the level s (hydrogen molecule)

 

Ionized hydrogen atom has one electron (the molecule is broken)

 

A molecule isn't an atom...

 

An ion is defined as an having more or less electrons than the number of protons.

[Sensei]

Hydrogen atom has 2 electrons in the level s (hydrogen molecule)

 

Ionized hydrogen atom has one electron (the molecule is broken)

Bond-dissociation energy of Hydrogen is completely different thing.

4.52 eV per molecule, and 436 kJ/mol.

It's three times lower than ionization energy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond-dissociation_energy

 

 

If you will dissociate molecule:

H₂ -> H⁺ + H^-

You will have one proton with 2 electrons, and one proton with 0 electrons.

 

Being the electron in the level n=1, the hydrogen atom cannot absorb two different photons with 12.75 eV and 10.2 eV

12.75 eV excites electron in Hydrogen from n=1 to n=4 as has been showed in previous post.

and

10.2 eV excites completely different electron in completely different Hydrogen from n=1 to n=2.

After excitation, it's releasing photon, and goes back to ground state.

Then it can absorb another one.

[Strange]

Hydrogen atom has 2 electrons in the level s (hydrogen molecule)

 

Ionized hydrogen atom has one electron (the molecule is broken)

 

What the ... !!

[imatfaal]

wlad has received some long and time-consuming to write responses that I have enjoyed reading - just a quick note that he has been permanently suspended due to numerous and various rule breaches

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/29763-bannedsuspended-users/page-18?p=824364#entry824364

 

Apologies to those who spent precious time on correcting his mistakes - but he was here to preach and advertise rather than to learn and participate.

[Strange]

Apologies to those who spent precious time on correcting his mistakes

You mean my two-word reply was wasted!

[imatfaal]

You mean my two-word reply was wasted!

 

I could tell considerable effort had gone into italicising the double exclamation marks

[Strange]

 

I could tell considerable effort had gone into italicising the double exclamation marks

 

Ah, not completely wasted then.