Anti vaccer movement.

[John Cuthber]

Nobody has said that the vaccines are without risk,so this

"WHETHER YOU WANT TO ADMIT IT OR NOT, VACCINES DO AND HAVE CAUSED INJURY. JUST LIKE THE VIRUSES THEIR DESIGNED TO ELIMINATE"

is still a straw-man, even if you use CAPS LOCK.

 

The point we are making is that, while there is a risk from the vaccine, the risk from the illness is much bigger.

 

You have chosen the bigger risk for your child.

That's your prerogative, but don't pretend that you have not made the irrational choice.

Life is risky.

You have to make a choice for your child about which game of Russian roulette you choose to play.

You have chosen the six shooter, rather than the seven shooter, and it's not as if you have not been warned.

 

No amount of straw manning will change that.

[Arete]

I just stumbled upon an open letter to anti vaxxers from a mother whose son has cancer, and subsequently is immunocompromised. He had to be shifted classes at school because there were children whose parents had "opted out" of vaccinations.

 

It explains very eloquently why there is so much animosity towards people who opt out of vaccines for their children. The whole letter is worth reading but I'll quote the most relevant bit for you.

 

"Choosing to not vaccinate impacts my family and my immunocompromised son. It impacts the teacher who is pregnant and teaching your non-vaccinated child. It impacts the man going through chemo who happened to be behind you in the grocery store when your unvaccinated child sneezed. It impacts the mom next to you at the pick up line at school who is on immunosuppressive drugs for her rheumatoid arthritis and who is bending down to hug her child just as your unvaccinated child coughs. Your "choice" has repercussions for your community.

 

Part of the cost of living in a first world country is that you have to do things that support the community in which you live. You pay taxes to pay for the police that respond to your 911 calls, to pay for the teachers who teach your children, and to pay for roads to be plowed and paved ... Sometimes, to live in a place with the privileges we enjoy here in America, you suck it up and do things you don't want to do because it's for the communal good ...Your responsibility to your community is to vaccinate your child."

http://imgur.com/gallery/p7WZs2u

Edited October 15, 2014 by Arete

[swansont]

We personally know parents who's children have gone deaf, blind, encephalopathy, even shown signs of regressing in their milestones after receiving their vaccines, and death.

 

And obviously if event B happens after event A, A must have caused B. Thus we can safely conclude that the development of nuclear weapons in the US was caused by letting women have the vote.

If you wanna talk statistics, I know my son is more likely to get measles, mumps, other viruses if he isn't vaccinated. I'm not saying "Hey everybody, don't vaccinate because it's bad." In my opinion it's a pick your poison kind of deal. I'm not the one living in fallacy, bad reactions to vaccines are very real and they do happen. You're all hypocrites if you say otherwise.

 

 

Nobody has claimed otherwise. They have pointed out that the relative risk is much, much greater for disease than for adverse reactions.

 

The problem is that you have provided no evidence that any of the bad things that happened to these children were caused by vaccines, only that they happened after vaccination. Lots of bad things can befall children, and (currently) most children are vaccinated and that happens when they are young. So most bad things happen after vaccination. That doesn't show causality. I fell off my bike and skinned my knee as a kid — was that caused by vaccination? By your logic, it was.

[CharonY]

In this context I there is another tidbit that should be added. Measles is one of the most infectious diseases that are currently known (order of magnitude higher than flu or ebola, for example). The good thing is that the majority in developed countries are immunized preventing larger outbreaks. But it is obvious that even lower lethality rates large-scale outbreaks would be devastating.

 

One worrying element is that compliance is not only dropping in the US, but also in several European countries. Almost all outbreaks that could be traced identified unvaccinated people (mostly children).

 

From the CDC:

 

During 2013, nearly two thirds of the cases came from three outbreaks. In these outbreaks, transmission occurred after introduction of measles into communities with pockets of persons unvaccinated because of philosophical or religious beliefs. This allowed for spread to occur, mainly in households and community gatherings, before public health interventions could be implemented. Despite progress in global measles control and elimination, measles importations are likely to continue posing risks of measles outbreaks in unvaccinated communities. Maintaining high MMR vaccination coverage is essential to prevent measles outbreaks and sustain measles elimination in the United States.

[too-open-minded]

Here's some things that has really bothered me, besides the immature name calling.

 

Accusing me of using a straw man argument. I have in no way, built up an argument that you might agree with that's not regarding to current topic and then attempt to defeat that argument.

Or accusing me of any other such arguments, as circular reasoning, cause for cause, or B happened after A so A must cause B.

Here is a picture book in case you're confused - https://bookofbadarguments.com/?view=allpages

 

Now listen, please just read this and think.

A majority of vaccine injury cases are entirely bullshit and there is no correlation. However when something goes wrong in a 12 or 24 hour period after the vaccine was injected, it's not a crazy notion. Unless the parents we've talked to are making it up, I believe it was the vaccines. I'm willing to bet that it is very unlikely yet somewhat more likely than currently made out to be. I'm sure that the vaccine reactions are related to immunodiciencies or other health issues.

 

I also understand the importance of vaccines, not only does it lower the chances of someone contracting a disease. It also eliminates the breeding grounds for the virus, viruses mutate fairly fast. Which is scary when you know it's breeding at a phenomenal rate. It's the scarier part to me than a single person contracting the virus itself. This is a matter of public safety.

 

From an unbiased standpoint, most of these viruses will not be lethal if there are no other underlying health issues such as immune system hazards like HIV. Which is arguably why you see the really high death rates.

 

Sanitation did not eliminate the presence of viruses, vaccines did. I hate that argument.

 

Just wanted to clarify those things and my stance on the topic.

 

 

I have a question, maybe someone here can help. I've seen the statistics about how unlikely an injury is. Yet I can't find the studies that yields these statistics?

I have a statement. We are going to continue to vaccinate our son. We are going to test for immunodeficiencies before we continue with his vaccinations and delay some of them until he's a little older. Like I said we are going to vaccinate. Not with the help of any of you, the belittling, name calling, and bashing actually pushed me away from pro-vax side of the argument. Please, if you ever wish to communicate with anyone in the future refrain from doing that.

[MonDie]

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/science/measles-mumps-vaccination-and-hearing-loss

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9521728/Rogue-strain-of-MMR-vaccine-caused-deafness.html

I've personally spoken to someone who has a child who went deaf likely within a 24 hour period, they can't say for sure 24 hours however it was noticed within 2 days after. Not that easy to notice if a 12 month old is deaf or not.

 

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2011/06/01/vaccines-and-brain-inflammation/

I've spoken to someone who's baby had seizures and started foaming at the mouth and needed to be resuscitated. 12 hours after receiving the vaccine. Had she not co-slept her baby likely would have died. She tried suing and they said it's not provably related.

 

Adding to Swansont. The laws of chance dictate that flukes will occur. Fluke rate = Frequency of developmental problems multiplied by number of vaccines recieved per day (or 2 days, or every 12 hours, etc.). Roughly

Edited November 1, 2014 by MonDie

[CharonY]

 

A majority of vaccine injury cases are entirely bullshit and there is no correlation. However when something goes wrong in a 12 or 24 hour period after the vaccine was injected, it's not a crazy notion. Unless the parents we've talked to are making it up, I believe it was the vaccines. I'm willing to bet that it is very unlikely yet somewhat more likely than currently made out to be. I'm sure that the vaccine reactions are related to immunodiciencies or other health issues.

 

Sorry, but you are misunderstanding why it is a logical fallacy. In order to know whether these incidents were caused by vaccines, you have to have either a) physiological data that demonstrates what happened or at least b) determine a statistical correlation between the events.

 

Just because something happened to a child after a given event does not give any scientific information about the connection between these two. Adverse health effects can arise spontaneous due to any number of unknown effects, just because a vaccination happened sometime before, does not mean that it is connected.

 

And here is the rub, there is statistical data for the vaccines and vaccines and the it was found that in about 6-8 million cases there is one child that becomes deaf after a vaccination event. The rate is so low that it is impossible to ascertain a connection. If that happened to your friends it means that they are that one rare case.

 

 

From an unbiased standpoint, most of these viruses will not be lethal if there are no other underlying health issues such as immune system hazards like HIV. Which is arguably why you see the really high death rates.

That is unfortunately a rather limited view and to me a contradicting view. On the one hand you think that a one in six million case is a serious issue, whereas a death rate of one per 1000 (in the US) is not.

 

Safety statistics on vaccines should be readily available from the CDC website.

[too-open-minded]

I don't agree with people blaming everything that happened to their kids on vaccines, but if it's within a day after it should raise a red flag. Just because I can't prove it, doesn't mean I'm not entitled to raise the argument. You say it's unlikely because the statistics say so, thus it's not true or connected. Yes the statistical data says that, I've yet to see the studies done to attain statistical data, which is what I requested.

 

Tell me, which death rate exactly are you referring to? Other than whooping cough for infants, I'm not sure of what you could be referring to?

 

CDC website, oh you mean this? - http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

 

"Serious allergic reaction (less than 1 out of a million doses) Several other severe problems have been reported after DTaP vaccine. These include:

• Long-term seizures, coma, or lowered consciousness
• Permanent brain damage.

These are so rare it is hard to tell if they are caused by the vaccine."

Part of the problem our few but substantial amount of friends are having with this, is the refusal of anybody to look into it. I dismiss anything that doesn't happen to a child directly after getting their shots. So all I'm saying is the data yielded may not be sufficient enough to encompass everyone.

Edited November 1, 2014 by too-open-minded

[John Cuthber]

" but if it's within a day after it should raise a red flag."

Why?

Don't those sort of things happen without the vaccine too?

The science here is not difficult. You count the number of children who suffer from some problem just after vaccination and you compare it to the number how suffer the same problem just before vaccination. If the frequency of problems in the two groups is the same, then the vaccination isn't causing the problem.

Those trials have been done on a very large sale, all over the world.

There is very little difference between the two groups, so there is very little additional risk from vaccination.

However there is a very much bigger risk from the illnesses like measles.

 

The sensible thing to do is vaccinate your child.

[swansont]

I don't agree with people blaming everything that happened to their kids on vaccines, but if it's within a day after it should raise a red flag.

 

I second the "why?" for this.

 

2/365 of the kids will have had their vaccines within 2 days (assuming an even distribution and only 1 set a year), just by statistics. Almost 4 million kids are born every year, so close to 22,000 of them fit that description. Your claim is that none of these kids would have gotten sick, if not for the vaccinations. A group of 22,000 kids.

 

Correlation is only the first step. You have to look at all the other cases, as well. Do kids get these maladies at other times? Can you show a spike after vaccination? If you haven't looked at those basic questions, there's nothing to this.

[iNow]

How anti-vaxxers sound to normal people: