Revenge, how is it justice?

[Ten oz]

Well sometimes they die, sometimes their attackers die, sometimes they go to jail, sometimes both of them go to jail sometimes they are so dominated they put up with it. If I was violated in any way reprisal would come, if not the police then... well.. bad things happen to people all the time...

 

I agree with that feeling. I too dont believe I would not tolerate such treatment. However the numbers imply otherwise. Abuse victim survive through therapy and the support of loved ones. Not through retribution. Revenge is a thing normally the powerful are in a position to get. The majority never see it. For example: Kids abused by their parents don't grow up, return home, and beat their parents. Rather they deal with the abuse, go up, and most of the time forgive their parents. The few kids abused so bad the parents are put in jail end up in foster care. Is growing up in foster care justice for abused children?

[Moontanman]

I agree with that feeling. I too dont believe I would not tolerate such treatment. However the numbers imply otherwise. Abuse victim survive through therapy and the support of loved ones. Not through retribution. Revenge is a thing normally the powerful are in a position to get. The majority never see it. For example: Kids abused by their parents don't grow up, return home, and beat their parents. Rather they deal with the abuse, go up, and most of the time forgive their parents. The few kids abused so bad the parents are put in jail end up in foster care. Is growing up in foster care justice for abused children?

 

 

Growing up in foster care is better than being abused and the parents need to be punished, retribution can be a large positive factor in the recovery of victims, see your abuser hauled off in chains can be very uplifting and helps to remove the self loathing and guilt felt by those that are abused. I regained my dignity by running my abusive step father away with a gun when he was beating my mom.

[MigL]

I guess personal beliefs are theoretical at best, Moontanman.

Your personal experiences certainly trump them.

 

Until I or someone else has been in a similar situation, who are we to judge ?

[Ten oz]

 

 

Growing up in foster care is better than being abused and the parents need to be punished, retribution can be a large positive factor in the recovery of victims, see your abuser hauled off in chains can be very uplifting and helps to remove the self loathing and guilt felt by those that are abused. I regained my dignity by running my abusive step father away with a gun when he was beating my mom.

Growing up in foster care is better than being abused but this thread is about revenge and if or how revenge is justice. Foster care provides a safer home but not revenge, not justice.

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

There are a large number of men in prison for rape and assault. Not the number you project if justice had properly been done in all cases, but that seems to indicate we expect retribution is justice. An eye for an eye in the Hamarabi tradition.

 

The relationship between men and women is interesting in regards, to this discussion, because you seem to be saying that if women could have, they would have, or should have found a way to retaliate, when harmed. The Ray Rice incident in the elevator is interesting in this regard because the woman would probably rather her husband was making millions as a professional football player, than ostracised by society for hitting her in the face.

 

The personal need for justice has been replaced over time with a justice system, so that we don't have retalliation and retribution create an endless cycle of murder as in Paterson gang murders, the Israelis and the Palestinians, the Hatfields and the McCoys, and any other situation, where the execise of justice creates the need for justice to be excercised.

 

In the case of men and women, the guy is usually the bigger and the stronger, and a one on one confrontation will be won by the man. I was taught to never hit a girl, because of this advantage. Others obviously were not taught this. In these cases the society stands up for the weaker. The child, the sick, the poor, the disadvantaged, and yes, women who can not physically match up with a big strong man. We equalize persons with laws so that the rich and powerful do not harm the poor and defenseless. Mostly people know not to use any advantage they have over others, against them. But when they do, it is not just, and something should be done to make it just, to make it fair, to make it livable and right.

 

There was a situation back in the last century where an abused woman cut off the member of the man. Quite illegal to do such a thing, but probably justifiable.

 

Perhaps if women, as a matter of tradition would take this kind of revenge, there would be NO rape or abuse.

 

Regards, TAR

John and Lorena Bobbitt article on Wiki describes the case.

 

I wonder if a study was ever done comparing spousal abuse before, during and after the trials and publicity surrounding this incident. Men, faced with the image of this kind of action being taken by a spouse, might have been a little more considerate for a while.

And in regards, to the American heads getting chopped off by ISIS, as revenge for airstrikes and actions against ISIS, and the fight against ISIS to protect defenseless women from getting their clitoris cut off, the thread topic has some deep and wide application to current events.

 

"JERUSALEM (AP) — Israeli forces stormed a West Bank hideout early on Tuesday and killed two Palestinians suspected in the fatal abduction of three Israeli teens in June, one of the incidents that ultimately sparked the Gaza war this summer, an Israeli military spokesman said."

[Ten oz]

Ten Oz,

 

There are a large number of men in prison for rape and assault. Not the number you project if justice had properly been done in all cases, but that seems to indicate we expect retribution is justice. An eye for an eye in the Hamarabi tradition.

There is about 160 million women in the United States. One in five say they were and or attemptedly rape/molested while one in four say they have been victims of physical violence. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-women-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0

We would have at a prison population of 40 million if in all case justice was sought. Rather we have a prison population of just over 2 million and less than half are in prison for violent crimes. So the over wheeling majority of rapes and assaults against women go without any legal retribution. When put into perspective the "large number of men" you referrenced in actually a very small minority of men.

 

The relationship between men and women is interesting in regards, to this discussion, because you seem to be saying that if women could have, they would have, or should have found a way to retaliate, when harmed. The Ray Rice incident in the elevator is interesting in this regard because the woman would probably rather her husband was making millions as a professional football player, than ostracised by society for hitting her in the face..

I am not implying that women could've, should've, or would've retaliated. Rather I am pointing out the overwhelmingly they don't. Just as I reference abused children. Seldom does an abused child grow up and seek revenge against their parents. I am not making value judgements or implying which actions I believe should unfold. I am pointing out the actions that are most typical. Revenge or justice is not performed in the majority of this society. Whether it is women being assaulted, children being abused, or great historical tragedies like slavery or massacre of the natives the majority of the time there is no retaliation. Rather people move themselves to safer places emotionally and physically then move forward.

 

The personal need for justice has been replaced over time with a justice system, so that we don't have retalliation and retribution create an endless cycle of murder as in Paterson gang murders, the Israelis and the Palestinians, the Hatfields and the McCoys, and any other situation, where the execise of justice creates the need for justice to be excercised.

The 2 million prison inmates we have in the United States does not come anywhere near the number of actually car thieves, shoplifters, rapists, child abusers, wife beaters, molestors, and etc we have. Our prison system functions to maintain order but I don't see how it effectively seeks justice. Cases like the many Catholic Priests who molest child for decades kids often end with people losing their jobs not necessarily going to jail. And those are cases where they where actually exposed as serial offenders. Jerry Sandusky was charged with 52 counts of molestation. He is in prison now but is put a 70yr old man in prison after decades of serial child molestation akin to an eye for an eye? IMO it serves to protect others moving forward more than it does avenge the past.

 

 

 

In the case of men and women, the guy is usually the bigger and the stronger, and a one on one confrontation will be won by the man. I was taught to never hit a girl, because of this advantage. Others obviously were not taught this. In these cases the society stands up for the weaker. The child, the sick, the poor, the disadvantaged, and yes, women who can not physically match up with a big strong man. We equalize persons with laws so that the rich and powerful do not harm the poor and defenseless. Mostly people know not to use any advantage they have over others, against them. But when they do, it is not just, and something should be done to make it just, to make it fair, to make it livable and right.

The rich and powerful seldom go to jail in the united states.

 

 

There was a situation back in the last century where an abused woman cut off the member of the man. Quite illegal to do such a thing, but probably justifiable.

 

Perhaps if women, as a matter of tradition would take this kind of revenge, there would be NO rape or abuse.

Perhaps that is what women are doing wrong in places like Saudia Arabia? Sarcasm aside, standing up to ones abuser generally only works if one is strong (physically, economically, politically) as their would be abuser. Just as blacks who refused to give their seats up on the bus often found themselves beaten and toss in jail (or do you think Rosa Parks was the first) during segregation I don't think violent revenge seeking by abused women would be an effective tactic is combating abuse. Time and education are far more effective in my opinion.

 

[dimreepr]

Thread,

 

Heard a story a few weeks ago, about an event that happened a while back, where a drunk driver killed to kids. A man walked a hundred yards to his house, got his 45, came back and shot the injured guy, still in his vehical, in the head. It was his kids, the man had killed.

 

I think I might have done the same, (if I had a 45).

 

I would not have been interested in why the guy was drunk, or in his reabilitation, or the fact that he had a family as well. He just took my kids, everything I was living for, and the only justice is for him to be dead.

 

Regards, TAR

two kids

 

 

 

I may have done the same in similar circumstances, who knows, but this story just emphasis the triviality of the human condition, yes we want revenge but how is that revenge, justice? When compared to the vastness of all possible interactions, not only human, but all that is possible. Yes this may seem undeniable in terms of our small limited lives but when compared to the vastness of possibility and when contrasted with all that may be both good and bad, is it such that we can’t, possibly, live beyond? The suffering of this loss won’t be mitigated by the murder of its perpetrator but it will further suffering.

[tar]

Ten Oz,

 

i have two daughters and a wife, I tend to do whatever I can to raise their status and power and control of their own lives.

 

I am not thinking though that I would be as removed from the thought of revenge as Dimreeper would have me be, should someone ever abuse either of my daughters. I simply would not allow such action to stand.

 

Perhaps I have been blessed with strength and size and smarts, to where I fear very few.

 

But I do not think you give enough big strong males, and enough of the rich and powerful the benefit of the doubt.

 

There are a tremendous amount of people who could take advantage, but do not. Plenty of big strong men that protect, plenty of rich and powerful that establish safe and sure livelyhoods for others, and plenty of intelligent folk who could easily fool others, but instead teach and solve problems and create wonderful things that make life better for others.

 

Your statistics added up to requiring 40 million men to be in prison for abusing women. What if there were only a few million men who deserved prison and they had each abused 20 women over their lives?

 

I think its ok to trust others. Even men. I go by a 90/10 rule. 90 percent of us are good, 10 percent not so good. Its just that the 10 percent mess it up for everybody else.

 

Plus each of us has done a few bad things. Probably when we were 15-18 yrs old. We are better now. Don't do those things any more. Know better how to act. But there is always somebody whose buddy steals a pack of cigarettes, just that one time.

 

Add it all up, it looks like the world is going to hell in a handbag...except that the most of us are going to keep it from doing so. We are going protect the weak, and poor and infirmed and stand against evil, try and reduce pain and anquish, and lock the biggest mischief makers away.

 

But this thread is about revenge. I think we need to pursue revenge when someone ruins our lives. Its what keeps people in line, in terms of caring about what other people think. The world for instance is interested in stopping ISIS. Stopping ISIS seems an excellent idea to me. Killing Bin Laden seemed an excellent idea to me. Dimreeper might be able to take a higher perspective on the situation, but my feeling is, you have to use your best judgement, and you have to protect your way of life and help others on your teams, that believe in the same stories as you do, succeed in reaching their dreams.

 

If somebody damages my way of life, if they harm me and mine, I am liable to fight back. If I have an enemy that wants me dead, I need to fight that enemy.

 

On Sunday my wife and I were talking to the guy across the street about the bear we had taken a picture of, the week before, standing between our shed and house...at the same time a very rare event was occurring 3 miles away at Apshawa Preserve. 5 hikers encountered a bear who began following them. They became frightened and scattered and ran. Four rejoined and could not find the 5th. They called authorities who found the malled dead body of the 5th hiker 2 hrs later. A black bear was circling the body and would not leave. They shot it dead. First deadly bear attack in NJ in 152 years. Would you call killing the bear revenge? Or is it much better to not have a black bear who has tasted human flesh roaming around.

 

I think the later. Take revenge, when taking revenge seems ultimately appropriate.

 

Regards, TAR

 

By the way another neighbor saw "our bear" Tuesday at 5 so he was not the culprit. He was innocent of the crime, and has been breaking my fence and eating my pears and breaking the branches of my neighbor's pear tree, quite in the manner a normal black bear should. There are around 2000 black bear in NJ. We only took our revenge against the one that deserved it. I was actually pleased to hear our bear was still alive, and not the killer.

mauled

Edited September 26, 2014 by tar

[Ten oz]

@ tar, my comments about abuse against women statistics were meant only to illustrate that revenge and or justice is not acheived the majority of time. I was not trying to imply that the strong generally abuse the weak. There are millions upon millions of smart and capable people who do good things. With that said those who choose to do bad things get away with it at a higher rate than they not.

 

While it may be possible that rather than 40 million men abusing women there are a few million abusing multiple women my point remains; the majority of victims never get justice. We (United States) do not have a few million men in prison for abusing women. We don't even have a single million in prison for that form of crime.That is not to say I agree. I wish all such criminals were brought to justice. I am just pointing out that they are not and most victims simply gather the peices and move on. Perhaps revenge is a delicious meal but it is one most people never get to eat.

 

You are right that we all have made mistakes. If society held everyone accountable for everything we would all be in jail. We all have done one of the following: driven a little or a lot buzzed, been in a fight, tried an illicit drug, stolen, and etc. Most of us mature, become more sensible, and knock it off with out any negative impact. A small minority of us pay heavy prices for such behavior and its becomes a shackle around their necks for the rest of their lives. In some cases it is deserved while in others not so much. Justice in not balanced. Not when the last 3 presidents of the United States all admittedly dabbled with drugs in college and the united states has more inmates in prison for the drugs than any other country in the world. Is it only a crime if you are caught? Is it justice to make one person a felon for doing things we know others are or have done yet received no punishment for?

 

You mentioned ISIS and what an excellent idea getting rid of them is. While I mostly agree I am conflicted some. The countries in the region we have as supporters like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, and etc all repress women, practice indentured servitude, and legally behead people. As that applies to this thread where is the justice for the millions and millions women and migrants living in the above listed countries that the United States is calling our friends? While revenge against ISIS seems well earned it doesn't actually resolve any of the real issues in the region or provide any true justice. It is merely akin to scratching an itch.

[Dr. Funkenstein]

The context of Revenge and Justice, I believe is not related. Justice being of a compassionate nature as in charity and aid to those needing the same.

 

While revenge concerns balance in commited acts.

[tar]

Ten oz,

 

I bring up ISIS in this context because my primary beef with them is that they cut of women's clitiori, so they will not enjoy the sex act,

 

This is about as abusive and demeaning as you can get toward women, as far as I can see.

 

Justice and revenge, in this case would be to catch the Caliph, cut off his balls, and kill every male he has sired. That way the direct line from Ismael would be severed for good, and we could go about the business of making it possible for others to enjoy life, rather than live for the stupid, unreal promise of virgins and satin couches and rivers of honey...later.

 

I am conflicted also in our stance in Syria, because I do not know how far to go with the "common enemy" thing, and there are many that would fight ISIS for different reasons than I would fight it, but I just figure, that if Kurdish women would take up arms against the IS, I am on their side. Even if the only thing we are protecting here, is their clitori.

 

Regards, TAR

Off topic, but this reveals a major flaw in Allah's plan. Are there male virgins waiting in heaven for female believers? And what happens to a virgin in heaven, male or female, after you have sex with them? After 20 times, 20 virgins would no longer be at your disposal.

 

Or possibly very on topic. Abrahamic religions are very sexist, and between Judism, Christianity and the Muslim faith, much of the world is dominated by people who believe they have decended from Abraham. It also seems to me that the Bible and the Koran frame God/Allah as a father figure...a male. In this environment "justice" might be skewed toward a male's point of view, and Ten Oz might have a significant gripe.

[MigL]

I don't think the bear attack was a case of revenge. If the authorities could be sure the bear wouldn't have mauled anyone else, they would not have shot it. It was a case of prevention of further attacks.

I think the bear was just being a "bear'. It certainly couldn't form intent or be 'evil'.

I think there is a vast difference between prevention ( deterrence ), justice and revenge.

[Ten oz]

I don't think the bear attack was a case of revenge. If the authorities could be sure the bear wouldn't have mauled anyone else, they would not have shot it. It was a case of prevention of further attacks.

I think the bear was just being a "bear'. It certainly couldn't form intent or be 'evil'.

I think there is a vast difference between prevention ( deterrence ), justice and revenge.

Excellent point. Going a step further I wish this is how society looked at law in general. In my opinion laws should be about organization and prevention. We should put people in prison to either protect society from a potentially dangerous person or as a deterrent to others. I don't think laws should be viewed or used as revenge.

[tar]

MigL,

 

I think you can have a good bear and an evil bear.

 

They are certainly capable of intent, and when a bear gets aggressive around here, they are labeled 1A bears and hunted down and killed. But you are right that it was more a matter of self preservation than revenge, that the bear was shot.

 

So what about the Israelis and the Paletinians? They each feel just in killing the other for past autracities. Or the Hatfields and McCoys. Or now Al Queda and the U.S.. The score needs to be settled. The "other" side needs to be brought to justice. How do you, or where do you draw the line, in some objective fashion between the type of action that you sluf off and continue on with life, after, or the kind of thing that requires a payback?

 

 

I saw a video the other day of a woman keying a Mercedes after an argument with the owner. Pure spite. Chicken sh#t revenge.

At least looking someone in the face and punching them in the nose puts the puncher "on the line" and the punched can punch back. Tit for tat is exactly revenge. Just a bit more serious and permanent when death is involved.

 

When ISIS cuts of a head, as payback for support of its enemies, should the act stand? Should we "get them back"?

 

"Now you've done it!" "I've had all I can take!" "OK, that's it, now the gloves come off!" "Oh, you want to play hardball, do you?"

 

Even if testosterone is responsible for the desire for revenge, its a real hormone causing real emotions and desires. People have to operate, when dealing with other people, in such a way that acknowledges the other's ability to take revenge.

 

Justice and revenge, I think, go hand in hand. Complicated maybe, by consideration of who has the power, who is in control of the situation, and an additional complication comes into play in that everybody WANTS control of the situation.

 

Perhaps that is it. Having the last laugh. Dealing the final blow. Getting the best of the other guy. Sometimes the family of a person who was killed feels a kind of closure and victory when their loved ones killer is put to death. Does not bring back the loved one. But its a lot better than living with a bear that has tasted human flesh, roaming around.

 

Regards. TAR

Edited September 30, 2014 by tar

[/backslash/]

The context of Revenge and Justice, I believe is not related. Justice being of a compassionate nature as in charity and aid to those needing the same.

 

While revenge concerns balance in commited acts.

By my consideration, justice is balance. Mercy is of a compassionate nature. And revenge is of an angry nature.

Mercy and revenge must be balanced in order to achieve justice. This requires the acknowledgement that whoever committed the wrong is still a human being, and should be treated like one, no matter what they did, and understanding of the circumstances under which they committed the crime. At the same time, you must not forget the seriousness of their actions, and take into account the fact that they had the choice to do what they did( if it was their choice.).

Sorry this isn't very well written. I'll probably go back and revise it.

[Avalanche2001]

Justice isn't definite so nothing can be proved about it.

[Awe]

If that happened to you after you killed someone or in that case my father , people would consider it as a punishment to you by nature or the god or whatever the force beyond us and it would still give me some degree of satisfaction. But in any case justice is not served by death of a person. It only stops them or stops others from doing the same crime.

I don't think you should feel satisfaction. There is no action that is worthy of revenge. Either way you shouldn't feel good that he died. We all do what we do because of an underlying religion, ideology or maybe some mental disorder. It's never the person's fault. They are simply acting based on what they have retained throughout life or something they were born with. Most people tend to forgive another once the other person apologizes, so why not do the same all the time? I'm sure that if that person saw things the way you did a while after hurting you they would apologize. It would seem kind of inconsistent to say something like he's just a kid, he didn't know any better. We act like adults just stop learning new thing and developing ideologically. For this simple reason I believe revenge stems out of an uncritical view of reality.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Awe

[tar]

Awe,

 

Perhaps an uncritical view of reality is behind the need for revenge, but I am thinking it is more a "settling of the score."

 

If you take a normal everyday thing, like merging on the highway, there is a give and take required, expected and engaged in, all the time, by everyone. One can step out of line and be pushier than everyone else, or be unexpectedly timid and anger the people behind.

 

Even in the absence of a superior being keeping score, we have each other and everybody else to consider is keeping track of who owes who what. Who owes who a favor or reward, and who has been taken advantage of and who has taken advantage of somebody else inappropriately and is due a come-upance.

 

We after all are animals with an evolutionary history. Pack rules, or herd rules, or survival of the fittest, or some combination of the above, mixed with religious, and philosophical ideas, have formulated and inspired our laws and morays and behavior toward each other. Power is sometimes shared, sometimes given and sometimes taken. When the power balance is understood and accepted by all involved, things unfold nicely...when one steps out of line they are scolded, if they continue they are punished, if they continue they are shunned, if they continue they are ousted, if they continue they are killed.

 

Where the revenge comes in, I think, is where and when the purpetrator is not subject to the pack rules and is not responsive to the social cues and team chiding and such. When outside the normal flow of retribution and score settling, and the evening out of who owes who what, I think there is still a "thing" that needs to get done. Since it by definition can not work the normal, clean, understandable way that scores are settled amoung friends and families and within orderly societies, but still needs to be settled,

revenge might be taken.

 

Regards, TAR

And perhaps spiteful things that people do, are sort of baby revenge. Little ways to "get back" at people and settle the score.

 

Perhaps required when the disadvantaged are harmed. Keying the car of the rich "b!t#3", so to speak.

Justice carries the balance scales after all. It is not to hard to formulate an argument whereby revenge is in some measure, justice.

[Awe]

Awe,

 

Perhaps an uncritical view of reality is behind the need for revenge, but I am thinking it is more a "settling of the score."

 

If you take a normal everyday thing, like merging on the highway, there is a give and take required, expected and engaged in, all the time, by everyone. One can step out of line and be pushier than everyone else, or be unexpectedly timid and anger the people behind.

 

Even in the absence of a superior being keeping score, we have each other and everybody else to consider is keeping track of who owes who what. Who owes who a favor or reward, and who has been taken advantage of and who has taken advantage of somebody else inappropriately and is due a come-upance.

 

We after all are animals with an evolutionary history. Pack rules, or herd rules, or survival of the fittest, or some combination of the above, mixed with religious, and philosophical ideas, have formulated and inspired our laws and morays and behavior toward each other. Power is sometimes shared, sometimes given and sometimes taken. When the power balance is understood and accepted by all involved, things unfold nicely...when one steps out of line they are scolded, if they continue they are punished, if they continue they are shunned, if they continue they are ousted, if they continue they are killed.

 

Where the revenge comes in, I think, is where and when the purpetrator is not subject to the pack rules and is not responsive to the social cues and team chiding and such. When outside the normal flow of retribution and score settling, and the evening out of who owes who what, I think there is still a "thing" that needs to get done. Since it by definition can not work the normal, clean, understandable way that scores are settled amoung friends and families and within orderly societies, but still needs to be settled,

revenge might be taken.

 

Regards, TAR

And perhaps spiteful things that people do, are sort of baby revenge. Little ways to "get back" at people and settle the score.

 

Perhaps required when the disadvantaged are harmed. Keying the car of the rich "b!t#3", so to speak.

Justice carries the balance scales after all. It is not to hard to formulate an argument whereby revenge is in some measure, justice.

Thanks for the reply. Although you can make a logical argument for the necessity of revenge I'm speaking of revenge in a more ideal manner. Even though revenge is necessary we shouldn't enjoy it. As I stated before revenge is illogical in the sense that we have no control at all over the way we are and even what we can control is nothing but a result of our genetic make up or our beliefs which are largely determined by our environment. So how can you desire revenge toward someone who's just like you. We all act based on what we think is moral and I don't think that's a good reason to desire harm upon another human being.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Awe

[dimreepr]

Awe,

 

Perhaps an uncritical view of reality is behind the need for revenge, but I am thinking it is more a "settling of the score."

 

If you take a normal everyday thing, like merging on the highway, there is a give and take required, expected and engaged in, all the time, by everyone. One can step out of line and be pushier than everyone else, or be unexpectedly timid and anger the people behind.

 

Even in the absence of a superior being keeping score, we have each other and everybody else to consider is keeping track of who owes who what. Who owes who a favor or reward, and who has been taken advantage of and who has taken advantage of somebody else inappropriately and is due a come-upance.

 

We after all are animals with an evolutionary history. Pack rules, or herd rules, or survival of the fittest, or some combination of the above, mixed with religious, and philosophical ideas, have formulated and inspired our laws and morays and behavior toward each other. Power is sometimes shared, sometimes given and sometimes taken. When the power balance is understood and accepted by all involved, things unfold nicely...when one steps out of line they are scolded, if they continue they are punished, if they continue they are shunned, if they continue they are ousted, if they continue they are killed.

 

Where the revenge comes in, I think, is where and when the purpetrator is not subject to the pack rules and is not responsive to the social cues and team chiding and such. When outside the normal flow of retribution and score settling, and the evening out of who owes who what, I think there is still a "thing" that needs to get done. Since it by definition can not work the normal, clean, understandable way that scores are settled amoung friends and families and within orderly societies, but still needs to be settled,

revenge might be taken.

 

Regards, TAR

And perhaps spiteful things that people do, are sort of baby revenge. Little ways to "get back" at people and settle the score.

 

Perhaps required when the disadvantaged are harmed. Keying the car of the rich "b!t#3", so to speak.

Justice carries the balance scales after all. It is not to hard to formulate an argument whereby revenge is in some measure, justice.

 

 

 

Just another way to say “an eye for an eye” and we all know the end of that road.

[tar]

Awe,

 

"As I stated before revenge is illogical in the sense that we have no control at all over the way we are and even what we can control is nothing but a result of our genetic make up or our beliefs which are largely determined by our environment."

 

I think we have a lot of control over the way we are. And a lot of how we feel about things, and what we do about things, has to do with how others feel about it. My own personal theory, or way of looking at people is that each individual has their own collection of teams that they are on, and the list changes and the complextion of each changes as a person evolves and grows and takes on new associations and/or stregthens earlier associations. So I would agree that our beliefs are largely determined by our environment, in that our social environment is made up of the various teams that we are on and each team has its history and rules and objectives, which we have "signed up" to associate ourselves with, follow and pursue.

 

Revenge is something I think done to a non team member. If this is true, then it is not illogical, as certain teams are in competition with each other, and lines have been drawn, as in the Israelis and the Palestinians, and you support your team by "getting back" at the other team. There are, in my estimation, certain contractual obligations one has to team members. Not written of course, but sort of understood by everyone, either on the team or outside the team. Fathers protect their children and give them the benefit of the doubt. Your company's widget is superior to the widget of the competitor. Your country's flag is more beautiful and meaningful than the silly rag the other folks have.

 

In this "picture" of human behavior and the realities of the world, one "has to" stand up for their beliefs and support the beliefs of their team members. It happens all the time on this board, where religious folks are marginalized and scientific folk are glorified. Its proper team behavior. Not illogical at all. There is not an "objective" way to be, that allows one to rise above being a human. We have to be human, because we are human and it is therefore the only way a human can be.

 

So I disagree with you a little in the way you throw up your hands and say we have no control over ourselves. We have absolutely control over ourselves, and can pick our teams and our manner of support of each. Especially in the U.S. where freedom to chose your own God, and follow your own beliefs is guaranteed in our constitution. Being on such a team that believes in human rights and freedom and the rule of law, puts me on the same team as most of the countries of the world, and at odds with nations with Warlourdes and Mullahs, and at odds with wanna-be nations like ISIS with horrible history, rules and purposes. When ISIS cuts of a head, I need to catch the SOB and kill him back. Revenge in its purest and simplist form.

Justice in its purest and simplist form. Not illogical. And something I have complete control over deciding to do or not...as a nation and as a leauge of nations. My team.

 

Dimreeper,

 

"An eye for an eye" was the Hammerabi code that was the basis of the legal systems of most of the world. What do you mean by "we knows where that leads"?

 

Regards, TAR