US-Americans mean their country was most democratic?

[Mr.Zurich92]

Hello I'm from Switzerland

 

There is something I don't understand. Why US-Americans have only the possibility to vote for two parties(democrats or republicans)? Here in Switzerland we have many different parties in the parlament we can vote for. So in all other wester democraties,too. Only in the USA you only vote for two parties? And this two parites very often don't compromise rather go in conflict with each other!? That's not democracy. Democracy means to compromise and to talk with each other.

 

And anyway the USA only has a representative democracy! Here in Switzerland we have a semi direct democracy. As a Swiss I believe the only two countries which are democratic are Switzerland and Lichtenstein, sorry! Representative countries are pseudodemcracies!

 

And even more: A French citizen can vote DIRECT for a president while US-citizen can't vote direct for a president!

 

So please don't say the USA was the most democratic country on earth!

 

 

 

[Endy0816]

Hello I'm from Switzerland

 

There is something I don't understand. Why US-Americans have only the possibility to vote for two parties(democrats or republicans)? Here in Switzerland we have many different parties in the parlament we can vote for. So in all other wester democraties,too. Only in the USA you only vote for two parties? And this two parites very often don't compromise rather go in conflict with each other!? That's not democracy. Democracy means to compromise and to talk with each other.

 

There are more than two parties.

 

Our elected officials do frequently compromise. In some cases though compromise isn't needed depending on which party ends up controlling what. The country is generally more capable of taking decisive action(for better or worse).

 

Voting system is different leading to different strengths and weaknesses.

 

And even more: A French citizen can vote DIRECT for a president while US-citizen can't vote direct for a president!

 

At this point in time the Electoral College vote is closer to defacto-direct. A majority of states have laws compelling electors to vote for a pledged candidate and there exists a large potential for backlash if the vote ends up going against the popular vote.

 

There is in fact a movement trying move things towards a direct vote. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up going that way in the future.

 

So please don't say the USA was the most democratic country on earth!

 

Every country has its share of ignorant souls.

 

More important to recognize the differences. We can only hope down the line that politics and nation founding becomes more of a science.

[harshgoel1975]

ha ha ha... most of the time an educated person think what he does is right...there are many.example.....such facts.. one of them you quoted above...

 

I visited a country .. they write English as they speak... like spelling of taxi as "teksi" and not "taxi".... but outsider thinks that these people do not know English.and make fun of them...... but to me they are more advance than native English speaker...see the fun .. we human.....something need to think from outside of the box...

[Mr.Zurich92]

But people don't have a say so much in the USA. Let's say a city parlament wants build a new football stadium. That cost a lot of tax money. So here a year ago, the people of Zurich city could vote if they want a new stadium(cost: minimum 250'000'000 $). A big majority said NO! So the tax money was saved.

 

Or nation level we can vote very soon if you can drive on Swiss highways maximum 140 km/j(87 mph) instead of 120 km/h(74mph). I will vote NO because there will be more car accidents if you can drive faster on highways.

 

Or it is the same with genetic modified food. 10 years ago we coukd vote if we wand to forbid genetic modified food and a majority said YES. Since then it's illegal for farmers to use semen of genetic modified food.

 

Or in a month we can vote about a change in our health system. While in the USA you go cracy because of Obamacare and put up a fuss, we can vote directly what kind of health system we want!

 

 

I hardly believe an US-citizen has such an influence!

Edited September 9, 2014 by Mr.Zurich92

[swansont]

There is something I don't understand. Why US-Americans have only the possibility to vote for two parties(democrats or republicans)? Here in Switzerland we have many different parties in the parlament we can vote for. So in all other wester democraties,too. Only in the USA you only vote for two parties? And this two parites very often don't compromise rather go in conflict with each other!? That's not democracy. Democracy means to compromise and to talk with each other.

 

 

In most (perhaps all) places, and certainly at the national level, there is one winner of the election. That's what drives most elections to be between two candidates. But we have a green party, and a socialist party and several others in addition to republicans and democrats. There are plenty of elections where than are more than two names on the ballot. But in most elections these other parties only garner a few percent of the votes.

 

That means there are no coalition governments in the US, in the manner that many other countries have.

 

However, right now there is a quasi-coalition congress, since the republicans are comprised of some so-called tea party members. The tea party members run as republicans because of the inertia in the system.

[CaptainPanic]

In Switzerland you voted NO against minarets in 2009, which shows that you may have democracy indeed. It goes so far that the religious freedom of the minorities are no longer protected.

 

Your form of democracy is getting awfully close to a nationalized version of the mob rule (the tyranny of the majority). A government should be there also to protect the rights of the minorities, whether they are religious minorities, age groups, people with disabilities, vegetarians or just opera lovers.

[swansont]

But people don't have a say so much in the USA. Let's say a city parlament wants build a new football stadium. That cost a lot of tax money. So here a year ago, the people of Zurich city could vote if they want a new stadium(cost: minimum 250'000'000 $). A big majority said NO! So the tax money was saved.

 

Or nation level we can vote very soon if you can drive on Swiss highways maximum 140 km/j(87 mph) instead of 120 km/h(74mph). I will vote NO because there will be more car accidents if you can drive faster on highways.

 

Or it is the same with genetic modified food. 10 years ago we coukd vote if we wand to forbid genetic modified food and a majority said YES. Since then it's illegal for farmers to use semen of genetic modified food.

 

Or in a month we can vote about a change in our health system. While in the USA you go cracy because of Obamacare and put up a fuss, we can vote directly what kind of health system we want!

 

 

I hardly believe an US-citizen has such an influence!

 

We do have referendums on which people can vote; stadium measures are one such thing. But direct voting can be dangerous; people could vote for things that they want but are detrimental to the society as a whole.

[Airbrush]

There is something I don't understand. Why US-Americans have only the possibility to vote for two parties(democrats or republicans)? Here in Switzerland we have many different parties in the parlament we can vote for.

 

Most of us Americans are very simple minded. We are only comfortable with 2 choices. More than 2 choices for president is too confusing for us Americans. We think that there are only 2 possible solutions to every problem. One is good, the other is bad. Let's blame it on our lousy educational system. When an American graduates from high school, at the age of 17 or 18, they are barely literate.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Airbrush

[Greg H.]

 

Most of us Americans are very simple minded. We are only comfortable with 2 choices. More than 2 choices for president is too confusing for us Americans. We think that there are only 2 posible solutions to every problem. One is good, the other is bad. Let's blame it on our lousy educational system. When an American graduates from high school, at the age of 17 or 18, they are barely literate.

If that's so, then let's place the blame squarely where it belongs - a governmental system that sees no value in the education of the young and an electorate that refuses to pay for it. We could have better schools, but no one wants higher taxes to pay for them. You could put a cop on every street corner, but again, someone has to foot the bill.

 

For the record, by the time I graduated highschool at 17, I was reading and writing at a college level, based on the "standards" defined by the state. My children are the same way - literate, thoughtful, and well read (given their ages).

 

If your local schools are subpar, perhaps you should reflect on where the problem actually lies, and work with your neighbors to challenge the local government to do what is necessary to improve them - and then be willing to help foot the bill when it comes due.

[Airbrush]

For the record, by the time I graduated highschool at 17, I was reading and writing at a college level, based on the "standards" defined by the state. My children are the same way - literate, thoughtful, and well read (given their ages).

 

You are lucky you got motivated by your educated parents, and you passed that good habit on to your kids. Congratulations! Today US kids are mostly learning how to watch fantasy on TV or their smart phone, or play video games where you shoot zombies or monsters, or slice them into pieces. I grew up with Pacman, Donkey Kong, and Mario Bros. What's with the recent abundance of violent video games?

 

Us Americans (U.S. Americans - hehehe), that I have met, have terrible handwriting, barely legible at best. How can anyone take useful notes with such bad handwriting? I worked as an accountant and bookkeeper for 20 years, and the worse part of the job was interpreting lazy-smart-ass people's handwriting. Good handwriting is a lost art. Everything is typed now. Good luck America if a solar flare, or CME (whichever is worse) returns us to a pre-industrial age. Try to figure things out by handwriting it!

 

The good news is America will have plenty of expert drone controllers to fight terrorism!

Edited September 9, 2014 by Airbrush

[Mr.Zurich92]

Additonally very weird how homosexuality is treaten in the USA! Homosexual acts between two adult person was decriminalized in Switzerland in 1943! In the USA decriminalisation of homosexual acts happened in the 70s! Some US-states have decriminalized homosexual acts in the last decade!!!

 

Now in 2005 we had a national votation if same-sex parentship should be comfirmed by the state. 58% have voted YES! In 2008 a tiny majority in California have voted FOR same-sex marriage ban!!! Very strange...

In Switzerland you voted NO against minarets in 2009, which shows that you may have democracy indeed. It goes so far that the religious freedom of the minorities are no longer protected.

 

Your form of democracy is getting awfully close to a nationalized version of the mob rule (the tyranny of the majority). A government should be there also to protect the rights of the minorities, whether they are religious minorities, age groups, people with disabilities, vegetarians or just opera lovers.

Compared to many Muslim states, european nations are tolerant to Muslims, but Muslims aren't. I mean Egyptic Christians get killed by muslim egypts, or some Christians have to go away from ISIS fundementalist! Here in Switzerland Muslim don't get killed by Christians and they can perform their religion as they want without any fear! Not even in Tukey Christans have to same rights as Muslims because they get discriminated by a few laws! Did you know that?

Edited September 9, 2014 by Mr.Zurich92

[CharonY]

Additonally very weird how homosexuality is treaten in the USA! Homosexual acts between two adult person was decriminalized in Switzerland in 1943! In the USA decriminalisation of homosexual acts happened in the 70s! Some US-states have decriminalized homosexual acts in the last decade!!!

 

Now in 2005 we had a national votation if same-sex parentship should be comfirmed by the state. 58% have voted YES! In 2008 a tiny majority in California have voted FOR same-sex marriage ban!!! Very strange...

Compared to many Muslim states, european nations are tolerant to Muslims, but Muslims aren't. I mean Egyptic Christians get killed by muslim egypts, or some Christians have to go away from ISIS fundementalist! Here in Switzerland Muslim don't get killed by Christians and they can perform their religion as they want without any fear! Not even in Tukey Christans have to same rights as Muslims because they get discriminated by a few laws! Did you know that?

 

OK, you are cherry-picking data now. These kind of comparisons yield little to no information and just emphasize bias. For example, Switzerland only allowed women to vote on the Federal level in 1971. That is over 50 years after the US. One Canton )(Appenzell Innerrhoden) only allowed women to vote locally 1991. Using OPs approach it is clear that Switzerland is one of the most misogynist nations on Earth, only eclipsed by Nations like Qatar, Oman, Kuwait and the Arab Emirates (Egypt had it in 1956, Turkey 1930, Iran 1963 ).

 

One thing of note is that I have never heard anyone stating that the US is the "most democratic", rather they tend to be proud of their liberties (whether justified or not is probably another matters).

Edited September 9, 2014 by CharonY

[Roamer]

But people don't have a say so much in the USA. Let's say a city parlament wants build a new football stadium. That cost a lot of tax money. So here a year ago, the people of Zurich city could vote if they want a new stadium(cost: minimum 250'000'000 $). A big majority said NO! So the tax money was saved.

some more examples

 

I live in the Netherlands(electorate), we call direct votes referendums, and occasionally our politicians play around with referendums.

Problem is, we have no laws regarding referendums, and they're either declared "non-binding" meaning they 're ignored if our politicians don't like the outcome,

or they're skewed from the start(nobody wants a new harbour, then there's a referendum about how big we want it to be)

 

What kind of laws does Switzerland have regarding direct voting ?

[Mr.Zurich92]

 

I live in the Netherlands(electorate), we call direct votes referendums, and occasionally our politicians play around with referendums.

Problem is, we have no laws regarding referendums, and they're either declared "non-binding" meaning they 're ignored if our politicians don't like the outcome,

or they're skewed from the start(nobody wants a new harbour, then there's a referendum about how big we want it to be)

 

What kind of laws does Switzerland have regarding direct voting ?

Our votings our binding. Not allowed are initiatives which bother human rights! That's why it's not possible to start an initiative which wants to reintroduce death penalty or torture for criminals(exemples). Interestng is, that the USA has still death penalty as a western OECD country.

 

We also have referendums. Exemple: the parlament decides to make higher the cost for highway vignettes. Now the people have 18 months to collect enough singatures. Then we have a votation about a referendum. If most people say NO in this referendum, the parlament can't make highway vignettes more expensive. Referedums are binding!

 

That's a big problem with representativ democracies, they are ignoring the will of the people. The biggest reason why no other country want to have a direct democracy is, because the politicans would lose political power! That's why.

 

there are countries in Europe which have clearly less inhabitans than Switzerland like Denmark, Norway or Finland. None of them has a direct democracy. It has to do with their politicans and parties who don't want.

 

 

Did the Dutch even have the right to vote if they want the EURO as currency? I don't think so. Do you know what is even far less democratic than representative democracies? The European Union!

 

They want a Free trade association with the USA, although many people in EU countries don't want this Free Trade Association with the USA. Democratic was if the people in the EU countries could vote if they want to have this FTA with the USA and you could guess if there was a votation, the FTA would fail!

Edited September 9, 2014 by Mr.Zurich92

[Acme]

Hello I'm from Switzerland

 

There is something I don't understand. Why US-Americans have only the possibility to vote for two parties(democrats or republicans)? Here in Switzerland we have many different parties in the parlament we can vote for. So in all other wester democraties,too. Only in the USA you only vote for two parties? And this two parites very often don't compromise rather go in conflict with each other!? That's not democracy. Democracy means to compromise and to talk with each other....

So please don't say the USA was the most democratic country on earth!

Hello I'm from the USA. I will be pleased not to say my country is the most democratic. Such a classification is meaningless. I will be further pleased to say my country started the modern experiment in democracy that set the mold for your democracy as well as the rest of Europe and world that accept a democracy of some flavor as a better way to live. You're welcome.

 

Most of us Americans are very simple minded. We are only comfortable with 2 choices. More than 2 choices for president is too confusing for us Americans. We think that there are only 2 possible solutions to every problem. One is good, the other is bad. Let's blame it on our lousy educational system. When an American graduates from high school, at the age of 17 or 18, they are barely literate.

Hogwash. Clearly you imply you're not simple-minded even though you say 'us Americans'. You only mean to use your blame-game to condemn those who don't agree with you.

 

You are lucky you got motivated by your educated parents, and you passed that good habit on to your kids. Congratulations! Today US kids are mostly learning how to watch fantasy on TV or their smart phone, or play video games where you shoot zombies or monsters, or slice them into pieces. I grew up with Pacman, Donkey Kong, and Mario Bros. What's with the recent abundance of violent video games?

Us Americans (U.S. Americans - hehehe), that I have met, have terrible handwriting, barely legible at best. How can anyone take useful notes with such bad handwriting? I worked as an accountant and bookkeeper for 20 years, and the worse part of the job was interpreting lazy-smart-ass people's handwriting. Good handwriting is a lost art. Everything is typed now. Good luck America if a solar flare, or CME (whichever is worse) returns us to a pre-industrial age. Try to figure things out by handwriting it!

The good news is America will have plenty of expert drone controllers to fight terrorism!

More opinionated unsupported anecdotal tripe. 'Recent abundance' compared to what? 'Lazy-smart-ass people' compared to who? 'Good handwriting' statistics from where? 'Barely legible' according to what standard? What evidence have you that any nation or culture will fair better than the US in the event of a damaging solar event? What you have offered in regards to the OP is worthless.

 

On the matter of parties, how many are there in Britain I have to wonder. France? Germany? Why pick on just the US to compare to Switzerland Mr.Zurich?

 

While it's uncommon to see more than the 2 main parties run for Congress or state or county or city offices, I cannot remember a presidential election that didn't have 6 or more parties with candidates. Socialist, communist, green, independent, libertarian, republican, & democrat come immediately to mind and I may have missed 1 or 2.

 

My state of Washington reworked the primary process so that the top two vote getters go on to the 'finals' regardless of party. Moreover, candidates may declare a preference for a party on the ballot or make no such declaration. Democracy is always a work in progress. It gives people the opportunity to change the law and that can only -IMHO- be a good thing.

[MigL]

My aunt lives in Switzerland ( Zurich as a matter of fact ) as do my cousins.

My dad used to work in Switzerland in the 60s prior to emigrating to Canada in 1968 from south-central Italy.

 

Maybe Switzerland's proportional representation type of coalition government works well with their multi-party system ( maybe the Swiss are more sensible ), but it has failed miserably in Italy. Their government falls about every six months ( OK I'm slightly exaggerating ) since WW2, and they have trouble getting anything accomplished.

 

Also I don't know if the laws are now changed, but the Swiss treated their immigrants fairly bad . There was severe discrimination against immigrants which kept them from owning property among other things. In the US, every immigrant who is here legally has the same rights as everyone else. They are all Americans.

Canada is very similar, except that in the 70s, Mr Trudeau started the Multiculturalism Experiment, where we pay new immigrants to keep the culture, morals and ideals of the oppressive societies they were trying to escape from ( a ploy to get the immigrant vote ). So we now have hyphenated Canadians like French-Canadians, Italo-Canadians, Irish-Canadians, Chinese-Canadians, etc.

[Mr.Zurich92]

Hello I'm from the USA. I will be pleased not to say my country is the most democratic. Such a classification is meaningless. I will be further pleased to say my country started the modern experiment in democracy that set the mold for your democracy as well as the rest of Europe and world that accept a democracy of some flavor as a better way to live. You're welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, the modern Switzerland was founded in 1848 as democratic and fedral country. But direct democracy was already used in some alpine and rural cantons many years before the USA even was founded. Like canton of Uri or canton of Appenzell:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsgemeinde

 

Only way how the USA has influenced our politcial system is, that our parlament is divided in two houses which do controll each other. That's it.

[Delta1212]

It is fine, I suppose, to be proud of your country, and I'm even a fan of the way Switzerland does certain things, but try not to fall into the same trap as the people you are criticizing.

[Mr.Zurich92]

On the matter of parties, how many are there in Britain I have to wonder. France? Germany? Why pick on just the US to compare to Switzerland Mr.Zurich?

 

While it's uncommon to see more than the 2 main parties run for Congress or state or county or city offices, I cannot remember a presidential election that didn't have 6 or more parties with candidates. Socialist, communist, green, independent, libertarian, republican, & democrat come immediately to mind and I may have missed 1 or 2.

 

 

First I have to say we are a country which don't have a president! That's something many Non-Swiss don't know. Our executive is shared by different parties so a lot of parties share the executive power! Totally we have seven executive ministers. Actually, 1 SVP, 2 FDP, 2 SPS, 1 BDP, 1 CVP. They do belong to parties which have different ideas how the state should be orginized, but they have to work with each other. There are more parties like greens, green-liberal, communist, socialists, or rightwings which are small and can't get into the executive.

 

Germany also has different parties like DIE Linke, SPD, FDP, Grüne, AfD, CDU, CSU, NPD etc. They all have seats in the parlament proportional to the votes they got. But US-citizen are represented by only two parties in Washington!

 

 

France is also not very democratic organized. The whole state is very CENTRALISTIC! Everthing is ruled from Paris. That's not good.

 

Very weird that Norway is ranked as Nr. 1 in Democracy index, although they have no elements of direct democracy neither federalism!

Edited September 9, 2014 by Mr.Zurich92

[CharonY]

I sure hope that NPD has not gotten any seats in the federal parliament!

[Mr.Zurich92]

My aunt lives in Switzerland ( Zurich as a matter of fact ) as do my cousins.

My dad used to work in Switzerland in the 60s prior to emigrating to Canada in 1968 from south-central Italy.

 

Maybe Switzerland's proportional representation type of coalition government works well with their multi-party system ( maybe the Swiss are more sensible ), but it has failed miserably in Italy. Their government falls about every six months ( OK I'm slightly exaggerating ) since WW2, and they have trouble getting anything accomplished.

 

Also I don't know if the laws are now changed, but the Swiss treated their immigrants fairly bad . There was severe discrimination against immigrants which kept them from owning property among other things. In the US, every immigrant who is here legally has the same rights as everyone else. They are all Americans.

Canada is very similar, except that in the 70s, Mr Trudeau started the Multiculturalism Experiment, where we pay new immigrants to keep the culture, morals and ideals of the oppressive societies they were trying to escape from ( a ploy to get the immigrant vote ). So we now have hyphenated Canadians like French-Canadians, Italo-Canadians, Irish-Canadians, Chinese-Canadians, etc.

And why there is a such big deal about Latinos which are migrating from the South?

I sure hope that NPD has not gotten any seats in the federal parliament!

As far I know they got some seats in the parlament of Sachsen(Geramyn is also a federal state). If people do vote for such rightwing parties, then you should accept it. Of course there is danger, but that's their fault. It's like prostitution. Prostiution should not be forbidden, because if a state forbides it, prostitutions goes in the underground.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Mr.Zurich92

[Acme]

 

On the matter of parties, how many are there in Britain I have to wonder. France? Germany? Why pick on just the US to compare to Switzerland Mr.Zurich?

 

While it's uncommon to see more than the 2 main parties run for Congress or state or county or city offices, I cannot remember a presidential election that didn't have 6 or more parties with candidates. Socialist, communist, green, independent, libertarian, republican, & democrat come immediately to mind and I may have missed 1 or 2.

First I have to say we are a country which don't have a president! That's something many Non-Swiss don't know. Our executive is shared by different parties so a lot of parties share the executive power! Totally we have seven executive ministers. Actually, 1 SVP, 2 FDP, 2 SPS, 1 BDP, 1 CVP. They do belong to parties which have different ideas how the state should be orginized, but they have to work with each other. There are more parties like greens, green-liberal, communist, socialists, or rightwings which are small and can't get into the executive.

 

Germany also has different parties like DIE Linke, SPD, FDP, Grüne, AfD, CDU, CSU, NPD etc. They all have seats in the parlament proportional to the votes they got. But US-citizen are represented by only two parties in Washington!

 

 

France is also not very democratic organized. The whole state is very CENTRALISTIC! Everthing is ruled from Paris. That's not good.

 

Very weird that Norway is ranked as Nr. 1 in Democracy index, although they have no elements of direct democracy neither federalism!

 

Yes well, we could go on like this forever. As you didn't cite a source for your opine in the title as far as what/when/where/which American(s) mean theirs is the best democracy then this whole exercise seems a waste of time. If Americans want to move to Switzerland they may and if Swiss want to move here they may. So-on-and-so-forth the same is generally true for just about any moving around between or among democracies. If you like the democracy you live in then stay put and participate. If you want to change the US or some other democracy then move there and join their fray.

[CharonY]

And why there is a such big deal about Latinos which are migrating from the South?

As far I know they got some seats in the parlament of Sachsen(Geramyn is also a federal state). If people do vote for such rightwing parties, then you should accept it. Of course there is danger, but that's their fault. It's like prostitution. Prostiution should not be forbidden, because if a state forbides it, prostitutions goes in the underground.

 

I know that they are in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and Sachsen and was but I was not aware of things on the federal level. Luckily a quick google showed that they are still far away from the Bundestag. It is of note that the party is actually actively agitating against the state and was close to getting banned (before the huge mess made it impossible). Plus this party is associated with a terror group.

 

The argument for prostitution is not a matter of moving things underground (otherwise, murder should be be made legal, as people would just do it in the hidden, right?). It is more a matter of whether legislation is more useful or harmful to the people involved.

[MigL]

The latinos you are referring to Mr.Zurich92, are illegals.

All legal latinos call themselves Americans and have appropriate rights and obligations.

[Acme]

The latinos you are referring to Mr.Zurich92, are illegals.

All legal latinos call themselves Americans and have appropriate rights and obligations.

Poppycock! Latinos, whether American citizens or no, refer to themselves as Latinos and/or Latinas. It is no different than Black Americans referring to themselves as Blacks or Irish Americans referring to themselves as Irish inasmuch as these terms refer to heritage. It is your kind of attitude Mr.MigL that leads Mr.Zurich to inquire about the big deal and the big deal is bigotry the same as in his own country or any other.