John Cuthber Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 there is not evidence that he was real ? perhaps , there is an evidence he was not real ? no , this is the point I try to explain above. How can you sleep at night with that tiger in your room? Obviously, there's no evidence that the tiger is real but equally, there is no evidence that he is not real. So, in the same way that you seem to think we should all believe in Jesus, you should believe in the tiger. Do you?
Strange Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 at least we are sure he was a myth. Why are you sure Dionysus was a myth but Jesus isn't? They are both equally well documented.
Robittybob1 Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 Why are you sure Dionysus was a myth but Jesus isn't? They are both equally well documented. Equally! Where?
imatfaal Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Plays_of_Euripides_%28Coleridge%29/The_Bacchantes
Robittybob1 Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 A play is documented proof of Dionysus? I doubt it.
imatfaal Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 A play is documented proof of Dionysus? I doubt it. What's the difference - between the play and your personal favourite story. My playwright actually existed and is well documented as a real person - what about the writers of your primary source? I can tell you the year, place, and circumstances of the life of my author - can you do the same? I can tell you when the play premiered and where. Can you do this with any of the works of the NT - apart from saying that they were chopped and changed for centuries till the council of nicea? If you want a list of other sources Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 29 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4. 2. 3 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian C1st B.C.) Nonnus, Dionysiaca 12. 330 ff (trans. Rouse) (Greek epic C5th A.D.) Homer, Iliad 6. 135 ff (trans. Lattimore) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy 2. 544 ff (trans. Way) (Greek epic C4th A.D.) Athenaeus, Deipnosophistae 1. 26b-c (trans. Gullick) (Greek rhetorician C2nd to 3rd A.D.) Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2. 21 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) Pausanias, Description of Greece 2. 20. 4 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) Ovid, Metamorphoses 4. 605 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) Seneca, Oedipus 486 ff (trans. Miller) (Roman tragedy C1st A.D.) Hesiod, Theogony 940 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or 7th B.C.) Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2. 30 (trans. Butterworth) (Greek Christian rhetoric C2nd A.D.) Aesop, Fables 517 (from Phaedrus 4. 16) (trans. Gibbs) (Greek fable C6th B.C.)
Strange Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) And that is the key point: there are multiple, independent (at least partly) sources describing Dionysus (as well as a much older oral tradition) while for Jesus there is a single uncorroborated source. Edited March 20, 2015 by Strange 1
yahya515 Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Jesus himself can be a myth, because he was doing supernatural things , and that is the nature of myths, however Jesus story is based on the idea of God existence , that he was sent by God , Dionysus I think was the son of Zeus , no one care about Zeus , people cared a lot about God in the past , the same as today , an example is ISIS , if he was mentioned as the son of God , people may try to examine it and determine that ,so it is a myth based on another myth which is Zeus . What's the difference - between the play and your personal favourite story. what makes people prefer a myth to be holy than other one , if they were myths believers , they should believe all myths collecting them together to form a huge union of myths, why there is not many religions as the number of myths ? a religion for Dionysus having its followers what makes people in the past so fool to believe in myths ? what makes the 21st century generation great people to determine whether a story is a myth or not ? I think science will not help to make 21st century generation great people to determine whether a story is a myth or not , philosophy only deals with that , is there a revolution in philosophy in 21st century as the quantum mechanics revolution ? I am not talking about blind trust in people in the past , but this should be considered . Edited March 20, 2015 by yahya515
Strange Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 Jesus himself can be a myth, because he was doing supernatural things , and that is the nature of myths, however Jesus story is based on the idea of God existence , that he was sent by God , Dionysus I think was the son of Zeus , no one care about Zeus , people cared a lot about God in the past , the same as today , an example is ISIS , if he was mentioned as the son of God , people may try to examine it and determine that ,so it is a myth based on another myth which is Zeus . As you so rightly say, the two myths are almost exactly equivalent. Therefore I believe them both equally.
yahya515 Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) As you so rightly say, the two myths are almost exactly equivalent. where did I SAY THAT ? I even did not mention any of these three words ( almost , exactly ,equivalent. ) Edited March 20, 2015 by yahya515
Skeptic134 Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 Dionysus I think was the son of Zeus , no one care about Zeus , people cared a lot about God in the past , the same as today , Determining what is true and based in reality isn't decided by a popularity contest. what makes people in the past so fool to believe in myths ? what makes the 21st century generation great people to determine whether a story is a myth or not ? I think science will not help to make 21st century generation great people to determine whether a story is a myth or not , philosophy only deals with that , What makes people believe in myths? Ignorance, fear, and a biological proclivity toward false positive errors in pattern recognition. Science is what allows us to accurately determine from an objective perspective what is true; when ancient claims run counter to repeatable observation we know it is mysticism and not truth.
yahya515 Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) What makes people believe in myths? Ignorance, fear, and a biological proclivity toward false positive errors in pattern recognition. do you thing they changed during time from the time of Jesus until now ( the things in bold) ? and what changed them ? did science do that ? and how ? Science is what allows us to accurately determine from an objective perspective what is true not true , science will not give you the ability to determine everything ( the word in bold) , people just ignore things that science can't determine !! Edited March 20, 2015 by yahya515
Skeptic134 Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 do you thing they changed during time from the time of Jesus until now ( the things in bold) ? and what changed them ? did science do that ? and how ? Sure, what people were/are ignorant of has changed tremendously over time, people for the most part no longer need a god for different meterological phenomenom today thanks to science. Fear of the unknown is still probably a common theme of humanity, the unknown has receded thanks to science but death remains perhaps one of humanities biggest fears, and thus religion remains in our modern cultures. As far as having evolved to be more likely to find agency and cause where none exist; I don't know how much that has changed in just a few thousand years. not true , science will not give you the ability to determine everything ( the word in bold) , people just ignore things that science can't determine !! I will paraphrase Dawkins... Science answers the questions that make sense to ask, like how a mountain exists. As far as answering why a mountain exsits, sure science has nothing to say, but perhaps the question doesn't make sense and there isn't anything meaningful to say.
Robittybob1 Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 What's the difference - between the play and your personal favourite story. My playwright actually existed and is well documented as a real person - what about the writers of your primary source? I can tell you the year, place, and circumstances of the life of my author - can you do the same? I can tell you when the play premiered and where. Can you do this with any of the works of the NT - apart from saying that they were chopped and changed for centuries till the council of nicea? If you want a list of other sources Pseudo-Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2. 29 (trans. Aldrich) (Greek mythographer C2nd A.D.) Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4. 2. 3 (trans. Oldfather) (Greek historian C1st B.C.) Nonnus, Dionysiaca 12. 330 ff (trans. Rouse) (Greek epic C5th A.D.) Homer, Iliad 6. 135 ff (trans. Lattimore) (Greek epic C8th B.C.) Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy 2. 544 ff (trans. Way) (Greek epic C4th A.D.) Athenaeus, Deipnosophistae 1. 26b-c (trans. Gullick) (Greek rhetorician C2nd to 3rd A.D.) Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2. 21 (trans. Grant) (Roman mythographer C2nd A.D.) Pausanias, Description of Greece 2. 20. 4 (trans. Jones) (Greek travelogue C2nd A.D.) Ovid, Metamorphoses 4. 605 ff (trans. Melville) (Roman epic C1st B.C. to C1st A.D.) Seneca, Oedipus 486 ff (trans. Miller) (Roman tragedy C1st A.D.) Hesiod, Theogony 940 ff (trans. Evelyn-White) (Greek epic C8th or 7th B.C.) Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks 2. 30 (trans. Butterworth) (Greek Christian rhetoric C2nd A.D.) Aesop, Fables 517 (from Phaedrus 4. 16) (trans. Gibbs) (Greek fable C6th B.C.) So after listing them what do you conclude? Have you read all of those documents? Did you come to some conclusion? Did Dionysus really exist in the historical sense. If you say "yes" I will attempt to study it as well but if you say "no" I won't bother.
Strange Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) Did Dionysus really exist in the historical sense. That is not the point. (We know he didn't.) Edited March 20, 2015 by Strange 1
Willie71 Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 (edited) not enough !! we know someone his name is Jesus , he had a holy book full of wisdom , called Gospel , he lived in Jerusalem, he was born in Beit Lehem , he was born about 2000 years ago , he did miracles and specific ones, etc , specific information like names , places of birth , names of places , dates , names of his followers and disciples , how he did his miracles , his name of his father and mother, etc, specific information like these is not logically be violated by unknown information which was presented above . unknown inventor of Jesus , unknown person who is not seeking for glory, unknown time when the Bible was invented , unknown real story for this person , Jesus, a lot of unknown. those are imaginary figures, they are not humans , I prefer to refer glory for me than another person, for an imaginary I may refer glory to it and I do not care . at least we are sure he was a myth. You do realize the other messianic figures had followings, rituals etc. The gospels are not history. Even the Roman Catholic Church has backed away from any claims of historical accuracy. Just because you want something to be true, does not make it true. A great read on this topic is Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion." Whether you agree with it or not, you can learn from the description of the logical fallacies that are commonly used to support God/Jesus. Make your own conclusions either based on or in spite of the evidence, but please inform yourself, as correcting logical fallacies is getting tiring. Edited March 20, 2015 by Willie71
Robittybob1 Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 That is not the point. (We know he didn't.) What made you sure about that?
Strange Posted March 20, 2015 Posted March 20, 2015 What made you sure about that? Seriously? Son of Zeus?
Robittybob1 Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) You do realize the other messianic figures had followings, rituals etc. The gospels are not history. Even the Roman Catholic Church has backed away from any claims of historical accuracy. .... Where are these concessions made by the RCC? Seriously? Son of Zeus? I don't mean the things they say about him but the actual person called Dionysus. Edited March 21, 2015 by Robittybob1
Strange Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 I don't mean the things they say about him but the actual person called Dionysus. The actual son of Zeus? 1
Robittybob1 Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) The actual son of Zeus? No a breathing (human) organism. Edited March 21, 2015 by Robittybob1
Endy0816 Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 There is nothing besides the mythology on record in regards to Dionysus. 1
yahya515 Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Science answers the questions that make sense to ask, like how a mountain exists. As far as answering why a mountain exsits, sure science has nothing to say, but perhaps the question doesn't make sense and there isn't anything meaningful to say. how a mountain exists ?!! ..........what causes life ? is it spirit ? if so , what is an spirit ? I think this is a more meaningful question than" how a mountain exist ?!! we care more about life than the mountain , so will science answer this question ? if not , then you are just ignoring the phenomenon of life , and that what I am talking about , see my previous posts . Fear of the unknown is still probably a common theme of humanity, the unknown has receded thanks to science but death remains perhaps one of humanities biggest fears, and thus religion remains in our modern cultures. fear of the unknown ? are you serious ? people fear of the bad things that may happen to them, that science can't avoid , these are well known , which causes pain and loss , that are what people are fear of and they still happen today. Sure, what people were/are ignorant of has changed tremendously over time, people for the most part no longer need a god for different meterological phenomenom today thanks to science. you are ignoring the most important thing which is life itself, the thing which causes life , and its absence causes death. Edited March 21, 2015 by yahya515
hypervalent_iodine Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 ! Moderator Note yahya, What you've said barely makes sense, but I am quite sure that is not on topic. Stop proselytising and stick to the thread topic.
yahya515 Posted March 21, 2015 Posted March 21, 2015 (edited) Stop proselytising and stick to the thread topic. OK, was Jesus a real person ? yes he was. Edited March 21, 2015 by yahya515
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