Was Jesus a real person?

[Robittybob1]

Exactly, if you can't show it to someone else it is not knowledge. ....

Only I can see it or interact with it, that makes it an unsupported assertion unworthy of anyone's belief...

And if you get to see it, is it then knowledge to you, you alone?

So do you accept my word that I had a vision of the text, spelling out the apparent (asserted) historical information. I'm not asking you to believe it but do you accept my word for it?

I am "gullible" remember so I might believe you have an invisible pet dragon.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Moontanman]

And if you get to see it, is it then knowledge to you, you alone?

So do you accept my word that I had a vision of the text, spelling out the apparent (asserted) historical information. I'm not asking you to believe it but do you accept my word for it?

I am "gullible" remember so I might believe you have an invisible pet dragon.

It's more likely you dreamed it than it was real... but if you cannot show it to anyone else then no matter how fervently you believe it you cannot honestly call it knowledge. More to the point your dream or vision has no more relevance than any anyone else's dreams, vision, or belief claims with no evidence...

[Robittybob1]

It's more likely you dreamed it than it was real... but if you cannot show it to anyone else then no matter how fervently you believe it you cannot honestly call it knowledge. More to the point your dream or vision has no more relevance than any anyone else's dreams, vision, or belief claims with no evidence...

Yes true, it wasn't like the side of the wall had text on it, it definitely was within my head and I realise I can't show it to anyone or to show it to someone else, was it was like a dream, but it was of a different nature to my normal dreams. But I then set out to see if there was historical evidence to support it, and I gradually found there was a legend about Jesus having a twin brother, but no one had ever decisively pointed out who was Jesus' twin brother. To me it is absolute proof of why John looks after Mary upon Jesus' death for that was their custom, the eldest was expected to look after the parents in their old age, but in return they received a bigger portion of the inheritance.

Do you accept there was an apostle called John? Do you believe he looked after Jesus' mother? But you don't accept that Jesus was real!

[Moontanman]

Yes true, it wasn't like the side of the wall had text on it, it definitely was within my head and I realise I can't show it to anyone or to show it to someone else, was it was like a dream, but it was of a different nature to my normal dreams. But I then set out to see if there was historical evidence to support it, and I gradually found there was a legend about Jesus having a twin brother, but no one had ever decisively pointed out who was Jesus' twin brother. To me it is absolute proof of why John looks after Mary upon Jesus' death for that was their custom, the eldest was expected to look after the parents in their old age, but in return they received a bigger portion of the inheritance.

Do you accept there was an apostle called John? Do you believe he looked after Jesus' mother? But you don't accept that Jesus was real!

Again, all you have is an assertion with no evidence, no better than people who report being abducted by aliens, at best you have had a delusion.

[Robittybob1]

Again, all you have is an assertion with no evidence, no better than people who report being abducted by aliens, at best you have had a delusion.

Sorry I'm a bit lost in you reasoning now. What is the assertion at this stage. Forget the vision (treat that just as a thought), are the research findings still just an assertion?

[Moontanman]

Sorry I'm a bit lost in you reasoning now. What is the assertion at this stage. Forget the vision (treat that just as a thought), are the research findings still just an assertion?

Yes, they are hearsay at best, not evidence of anything but what someone else believed..

[Robittybob1]

Yes, they are hearsay at best, not evidence of anything but what someone else believed..

Or knew in the case of the Gospel of John. I am certain it was written or dictated to a scribe by John in his later years.

What evidence do you have that John is/is not written by St. John?

Edited October 24, 2014 by Robittybob1

[yahya515]

Anything apart from demonstrate His own existence or so it seems.

Do you understand that making statements like that, without any evidence, on a science website makes you look a bit silly?

It's also very close to the logical fallacy called "begging the question".

Please explain why you do it.

it seems that you prefer to discuss about my way of discussion rather than the topic of discussion itself.I think nobody in this (scientific website) will benefit from such discussion . Edited October 24, 2014 by yahya515

[Robittybob1]

it seems that you prefer to discuss about my way of discussion rather than the topic of discussion itself.I think nobody in this (scientific website) will benefit from such discussion .

Are you Coptic Christian? I think there are varieties of Christians and even though we are all Christians we don't really understand each other, especially in the theology side of things. Like can you understand me?

[Sensei]

Earlier in the thread I saw comments made that after 2,000yrs anyone could be said not to have lived. That plus the argument that Jesus' having been real is the best explanation for Christianity feels empty. Julius Caesar lived over 2,000yrs ago and there is an enormous amount of evidence of his life. Much was written about him and art work created contemporarily to his life. Not only in Roman but all the areas he traveled and impacted like Egypt. Ceasar himself wrote things and fragments of those writings exist. No magical claims to dig though searching for cross references. Tons of contemporary work. Everything from portraits, cions that bore his face, to works made from his own hands.

one might argue that Caesar can not be compared to Jesus because Caesar was so powerful and influential; what was Jesus? Jesus had he lived was influential enough to convince people he was GOD and start a religion that has gone on to dominate the globe. Billions pray to Jesus today, not Caesar. Yet Caesar has for more documented? Caesar was obviously more important to his contemporaries?

 

Hundred millions people prayed to Caesar-god after his death for a few hundred years.

He has been deified at 42 BC (in the middle of article) by his grant-nephew Octavian August.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar

 

Cult of Caesar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_cult_%28ancient_Rome%29#Divus_Julius

 

If there would be no delegalization of ancient religions in Roman Empire, his cult could be continued.

[yahya515]

Are you Coptic Christian? I think there are varieties of Christians and even though we are all Christians we don't really understand each other, especially in the theology side of things. Like can you understand me?

I am a Quranic Muslim.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism

[Ten oz]

C'mon, Ten oz. You are really disqualifying yourself. Caesar fought a war, conquered France, got dictator of Rome, and was killed in the senate, etc etc.

 

And Jesus was a 'guru' of a small sect, that afterwards happened to grow out to a huge religion. A preacher having whatever pretensions (I don't think you find in the early gospels that Jesus calls himself God), why should a non Christian historian be interested in such a person?

 

I understand there is no real comparison that can be made between Caesar and Jesus. That is basically my point. Caesar was clearly a real person whose amazing feats were real as well. Being 2,000yrs old doesn't automatically mean there are question marks surrounding evidence of a historical figures life. Jesus is a questionable figure because no one during his life was particularly interested in him enough to write things down, produce art, or save relics. Even after he died only self professed followers wrote anything about his life. If we were talking about anyone else from 2,000yrs ago with zero evidence other than a book of magic everyone here would agree that there just isn't enough information to know one way or another. Because it is Jesus people error on his side.

You continually point out that historians practicing historical methods believe Jesus was real but truly it is just Theologians practicing biblical studies. The link you used early from wiki has a section outlining the methods of research and they are primarily biblical criticisms and nothing more. Beneath that are sections explaining that many scholars reject the methods. You lament that I don't accept the New Testemant but yourself refuse to acknowledge that the method is not perfect and has its scholarly critics.

Jesus may have been an charasmatic apocolytic preacher, an amalgamation of several charasmatic apocolytic preachers, or entirely made up. I am a rather cut and dry sort of person. Until things are known I consider them unknown. I don't not consider things unprovable but most likely. If Jesus is most likely to have exist than solid evidence should support such a belief. Otherwise it is just faith. I have no faith is the methods of Theologians' biblical critiques. The history I believe in is provable like Caesar.

[Moontanman]

Or knew in the case of the Gospel of John. I am certain it was written or dictated to a scribe by John in his later years.

What evidence do you have that John is/is not written by St. John?

I do not have the burden of proof in this, you are making a positive claim, an extraordinary one BTW and it's you that needs to provide proof, I simply do not believe you...

BTW the dragon this was just my attempt to explain critical thinking, I have a better story by someone else that might illustrate it better if you still have questions as to personal experience and evidence..

[Robittybob1]

I do not have the burden of proof in this, you are making a positive claim, an extraordinary one BTW and it's you that needs to provide proof, I simply do not believe you...

BTW the dragon this was just my attempt to explain critical thinking, I have a better story by someone else that might illustrate it better if you still have questions as to personal experience and evidence..

Well I'm still looking into the authorship of the Gospel of John. It is certainly different. Was the wrong guy given the glory? That is the question that goes through my head. It is bad enough with brothers let alone with twin brothers and who should get the birthright and inheritance.

How do you plan to tell me the other story? "I have a better story by someone else"

I am a Quranic Muslim.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quranism

Thanks. Well was Jesus real to you? Is it true that Jesus was not crucified? Tell me how you see it please?

[Moontanman]

Well I'm still looking into the authorship of the Gospel of John. It is certainly different. Was the wrong guy given the glory? That is the question that goes through my head. It is bad enough with brothers let alone with twin brothers and who should get the birthright and inheritance.

How do you plan to tell me the other story? "I have a better story by someone else"

It's late and night in your neighborhood, maybe 2 am and no one is but you have to take out the garbage, When you get the street you see a 30 meter sauropod walking down your street, you run up to it, you fell it's rough skin as it walks by, you can smell it and climb on it's back if you want.

 

You finally realize you have to get a video so you run inside to get your camera and the beast is gone, no trace of it anywhere to be seen. Weeks pass and evidence of the dinosaur is found, no destruction, no Volkswagen sized piles of excrement.

 

So other guy says he saw a dinosaur too but his was a theropod and could not be the same one you saw but he has no physical evidence for it either...

 

You know you saw it, it was real as anything you have ever seen but after much times passes and no trace of the dinosaur is ever found.

If you are honest you have to admit that it's likely the dinosaur was never there and you imagined it no matter how real is seemed to you at the time.

 

My apologies to Aron Ra for any misrepresentation of his story...

[Robittybob1]

It's late and night in your neighborhood, maybe 2 am and no one is but you have to take out the garbage, When you get the street you see a 30 meter sauropod walking down your street, you run up to it, you fell it's rough skin as it walks by, you can smell it and climb on it's back if you want.

 

You finally realize you have to get a video so you run inside to get your camera and the beast is gone, no trace of it anywhere to be seen. Weeks pass and evidence of the dinosaur is found, no destruction, no Volkswagen sized piles of excrement.

 

So other guy says he saw a dinosaur too but his was a theropod and could not be the same one you saw but he has no physical evidence for it either...

 

You know you saw it, it was real as anything you have ever seen but after much times passes and no trace of the dinosaur is ever found.

If you are honest you have to admit that it's likely the dinosaur was never there and you imagined it no matter how real is seemed to you at the time.

 

My apologies to Aron Ra for any misrepresentation of his story...

Firstly thanks.

Reading that I wonder if we don't all have personal stories like this, where we have seen something but have no explanation for it.

[Moontanman]

Firstly thanks.

Reading that I wonder if we don't all have personal stories like this, where we have seen something but have no explanation for it.

Our brains are quite capable of fooling us, it happens a lot and most people are medicated for those hallucinations or delusions if they can't tell the difference... unless of course it's religion...

[Robittybob1]

Our brains are quite capable of fooling us, it happens a lot and most people are medicated for those hallucinations or delusions if they can't tell the difference... unless of course it's religion...

That is a bit rough! So you have no unusual sightings in your long life. Yes and I'd say most people don't get medication simply because of that unless you are referring to something that happened to yourself.

[Moontanman]

That is a bit rough! So you have no unusual sightings in your long life. Yes and I'd say most people don't get medication simply because of that unless you are referring to something that happened to yourself.

The truth is often quite rough, I feel no obligation to hold your hand and tell you the universe cares about you or anyone else. People who hallucinate have problems, some are bad enough to be medicated. If you honestly thought that wine turns to blood and crackers turn to the flesh of someone long dead you would be labeled a kook unless of course you are talking about religion.

 

No other part of our society gets a pass on evidence except religion.

 

Whether or not I have unusual experiences in my life is only relevant if I believed it to be true despite a lack of evidence. I have sleep paralysis, yes with the little aliens and everything, I've had visions of red numbers and symbols float in my field of vision while completely awake, Both these things have explanations, if I had not been skeptical these things might have ruined my life..

[Robittybob1]

The truth is often quite rough, I feel no obligation to hold your hand and tell you the universe cares about you or anyone else. People who hallucinate have problems, some are bad enough to be medicated. If you honestly thought that wine turns to blood and crackers turn to the flesh of someone long dead you would be labeled a kook unless of course you are talking about religion.

 

No other part of our society gets a pass on evidence except religion.

 

Whether or not I have unusual experiences in my life is only relevant if I believed it to be true despite a lack of evidence. I have sleep paralysis, yes with the little aliens and everything, I've had visions of red numbers and symbols float in my field of vision while completely awake, Both these things have explanations, if I had not been skeptical these things might have ruined my life..

Well what is the explanation then, were the numbers answers or were the symbols your subconscious brain offering your conscious brain clues?

 

I don't think it would have ruined your life.

"Sleep paralysis"? I did read about that but I will have to refresh (from Wikipedia).

 

 

Sleep paralysis is a phenomenon in which a person, either falling asleep or awakening, temporarily experiences an inability to move, speak or react. It is a transitional state between wakefulness and sleep characterized by complete muscle atonia (muscle weakness). It is often accompanied by terrifying hallucinations (such as an intruder in the room) to which one is unable to react due to paralysis, and physical experiences (such as strong current running through the upper body). One theory is that it results from disrupted REM sleep, which normally induces complete muscle atonia to prevent the sleeper from acting out his or her dreams.

i like that bit about "preventing the sleeper from acting out his dreams". My friend tells me I awoke her and I was dreaming but I had my hands around her throat strangling her and I was saying "let me go".

Edited October 24, 2014 by Robittybob1

[Moontanman]

Well what is the explanation then, were the numbers answers or were the symbols your subconscious brain offering your conscious brain clues?

No it was Basler migraines blood pressure medicine made them go away.

 

I don't think it would have ruined your life.

"Sleep paralysis"? I did read about that but I will have to refresh (from Wikipedia).

i like that bit about "preventing the sleeper from acting out his dreams". My friend tells me I awoke her and I was dreaming but I had my hands around her throat strangling her and I was saying "let me go".

I don't know, running around believing that the thinks that happened during sleep paralysis would have been detrimental as far as I am concerned, they certainly were when I was a child.

 

The point is that your brain can fool you in many ways, that is why the dinosaur sighting was considered irrational...

[Robittybob1]

I don't know, running around believing that the thinks that happened during sleep paralysis would have been detrimental as far as I am concerned, they certainly were when I was a child. ...

 

 

Children with nightmares is certainly a problem for parents. That is not good. Sorry to hear it, it brings back memories of raising my kids. Every night at 10:30 -11:00 one of the three would have horrendous nightmares.

[Moontanman]

Children with nightmares is certainly a problem for parents. That is not good. Sorry to hear it, it brings back memories of raising my kids. Every night at 10:30 -11:00 one of the three would have horrendous nightmares.

I appreciate the sentiment, both my sons have sleep paralysis but because I knew what it was I was able to teach them how to deal with it. they are now both very successful, one is actually an academic, I guess that is the correct word, he speaks four languages fluently and works for UNC. My other son manages men's stores in three states and is working on a graduate degree at UNC. I am very proud of them..

 

But your stance in the discussion is still nothing but pure horse feathers...

[Robittybob1]

I appreciate the sentiment, both my sons have sleep paralysis but because I knew what it was I was able to teach them how to deal with it. they are now both very successful, one is actually an academic, I guess that is the correct word, he speaks four languages fluently and works for UNC. My other son manages men's stores in three states and is working on a graduate degree at UNC. I am very proud of them..

 

But your stance in the discussion is still nothing but pure horse feathers...

What did you teach them in order to cope with sleep paralysis?

My stance was I was going to see if I can prove who wrote Gospel of John, but I have had a day in the garden pulling weeds, so it has been out of my mind today.

[yahya515]

Thanks. Well was Jesus real to you? Is it true that Jesus was not crucified? Tell me how you see it please?

Jesus was a prophet with some of God characteristics ,he was not divine, he escaped from being crucified, putting the person who guided the soldiers on the cross as a revenge , in Islam the Romans crucified a person who had the shape of Jesus and not Jesus himself. this give the feeling that Jesus was a powerful man and this is more important fact about Jesus being the messiah than other things like raising people from death you perhaps know how God mentioned the power of Moses and what he did to the Egyptians, the power of Jesus was escaping from being crucified, getting revenge from the person who guided the Romans to him by putting his shape on him, and finally rising to heaven.