Ten oz Posted October 21, 2014 Author Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Yet you provide no evidence, my invisible dragon has just as much evidence. There is no proof your Dragon is real but there are "hints". As a first hand account you affirm that your Dragon is real. Theoretically your claim could be sarcasm but the easiest explanation is that it is true. After all I have no "hints" that it is untrue or a working theory for why you'd make it up........ Edited October 21, 2014 by Ten oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 There is no proof your Dragon is real but there are "hints". As a first hand account you affirm that your Dragon is real. Theoretically your claim could be sarcasm but the easiest explanation is that it is true. After all I have no "hints" that it is untrue or a working theory for why you'd make it up........ Did Moontanman start off saying his pet dragon was invisible? It is high-time he took his pet to the vet to get lab tests and cat scans performed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I think you have followed my story from the start in this thread, how I refused to work till I knew the truth, and then I had the trouble with the paranoia of being abducted by aliens, but at Easter that year I had the vision of the book. I said "God if that is true let me find some evidence of this in ancient books", and over the years the evidence has been revealed but at that time in 1991 no one would ever say that "Mary the mother of Jesus had twins". But now the internet is full of references to Jesus having a twin brother. So I believe for I have seen it myself. But I have never seen frogs that fly or dogs with wings .... I have never seen a vision that indicates Jesus was real much less a twin... If you can't show it then you don't know it, really really believing something is not knowledge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) I have never seen a vision that indicates Jesus was real much less a twin... If you can't show it then you don't know it, really really believing something is not knowledge... What would you say; if that is the case I ask Jesus that you too receive the same vision so you are no longer without the knowledge? Edited October 21, 2014 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 What would you say; if that is the case I ask Jesus that you too receive the same vision so you are no longer without the knowledge? If Jesus did that i would be impressed to say the least... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) If Jesus did that i would be impressed to say the least... Have you studied the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas? There are a couple of sayings that could be applied to this thread. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/thomas-fifth.html (17) Jesus says: "I will give you what no eye has seen, and what no ear has heard, and what no hand has touched, and what has not occurred to the human mind." (108) Jesus says: (1) "Whoever will drink from my mouth will become like me. (2) I myself will become he, (3) and what is hidden will be revealed to him." It is when things like that happen you will know that Jesus was/is a real person. Edited October 21, 2014 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Have you studied the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas? There are a couple of sayings that could be applied to this thread. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/thomas-fifth.html It is when things like that happen you will know that Jesus was/is a real person. Seriously ... EEWWW! This on the border of proselytizing, probably not a good idea to continue quoting scripture if for no other reason scripture is meaningless as evidence as is personal experience. I don't believe the stories about Jesus for the same reasons i don't believe in bigfoot, alien abduction, or the lockness monster... Remember and this is important, that which can be asserted with no evidence can be dismissed with no evidence. I truly would not be surprised if there was an apocalyptic preacher at the time from what i understand there were many and one could have been named Jesus but as Eise has said at least a couple of times. The evidence for the supernatural part is non existent, to me that is the only meaning full part of the story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) .... proselytizing ..... What is the definition of proselytizing? (That not an easy word to spell) If I said "you need to study the Gospel of Thomas for your salvation" then I'd agree. Above I only asked you "have you read the Gospel of Thomas?" So that is simply a question. It is like if you were ever to show me your invisible dragon I'd know you were telling me the truth. And besides it was you who started proselytizing first! http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/85759-was-jesus-a-real-person/page-9#entry832814 Even I said "EEWWW" when I read that! Edited October 21, 2014 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 What is the definition of proselytizing? (That not an easy word to spell) If I said "you need to study the Gospel of Thomas for your salvation" then I'd agree. Above I only asked you "have you read the Gospel of Thomas?" So that is simply a question. It is like if you were ever to show me your invisible dragon I'd know you were telling me the truth. And besides it was you who started proselytizing first! http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/85759-was-jesus-a-real-person/page-9#entry832814 Even I said "EEWWW" when I read that! Proselytizing is trying to sell others on your belief, not buying it and telling you why is not Proselytizing... I didn't accuse you of Proselytizing I said we were getting close to that level and we should stop, well you were any way... just trying to be helpful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Proselytizing is trying to sell others on your belief, not buying it and telling you why is not Proselytizing... I didn't accuse you of Proselytizing I said we were getting close to that level and we should stop, well you were any way... just trying to be helpful... You had crossed the line. You were actively promoting atheism in the post I quoted. I am very conscious of the accusation of proselytizing so I always step back from it. Why would you believe something so outrageous as a god, lets cut to the chase that is what this conversation is about, why would you believe such a thing with no evidence? I can give better evidence for aliens visiting the earth than you can for a god, son of god or any other supernatural thing... That is what you said and I was deeply offended by it. Edited October 21, 2014 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) You had crossed the line. You were actively promoting atheism in the post I quoted. I am very conscious of the accusation of proselytizing so I always step back from it. I disagree, if you think I was actively proselytizing you should report me. That is what you said and I was deeply offended by it. And your point would be? You nor me have the right to not be offended because of differing points of view, your religious opinions are not sacred to anyone but you. If you think my lack of belief in magical sky fairies is offensive i suggest you join a club, I'm quite sure you can get many members and i would still not profess respect for your beliefs, just your right to hold them... Edited October 21, 2014 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 I disagree, if you think I was actively proselytizing you should report me. And your point would be? You nor me have the right to not be offended because of differing points of view, your religious opinions are not sacred to anyone but you. If you think my lack of belief in magical sky fairies is offensive i suggest you join a club, I'm quite sure you can get many members and i would still not profess respect for your beliefs, just your right to hold them... Read your words that I quote again. I don't care what you believe but you were kicking my beliefs in the guts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Read your words that I quote again. I don't care what you believe but you were kicking my beliefs in the guts. Again, your beliefs are not immune to a good "kicking in the guts" in fact if your beliefs cannot stand the criticism then your beliefs might need to be looked at a little closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Again, your beliefs are not immune to a good "kicking in the guts" in fact if your beliefs cannot stand the criticism then your beliefs might need to be looked at a little closer. Proselytizing again! Would you let me turn that around pulling down your lack of belief? But being a good Christian following the real Jesus, I will allow you to offend me seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22 The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Edited October 21, 2014 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Proselytizing again! Would you let me turn that around pulling down your lack of belief? But being a good Christian following the real Jesus, I will allow you to offend me seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22 Knock your self out, my lack of belief does not define me, it is not in anyway possible to defame my lack of belief. In fact if you could do that you would win me over... I do not insult you I respect you as a human being but your beliefs are only as vulnerable as they are unsupported. It is impossible for you to insult me be belittling my lack of belief in magic sky fairies, if only your belief was backed by enough evidence to be as invulnerable as my lack of belief... My lack of belief in no way offers an alternative to belief, I have nothing to sell you, I simply am not buying what you are selling. Only a poor salesman requires faith, my lack of belief requires no faith... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Knock your self out, my lack of belief does not define me, it is not in anyway possible to defame my lack of belief. In fact if you could do that you would win me over... I do not insult you I respect you as a human being but your beliefs are only as vulnerable as they are unsupported. It is impossible for you to insult me be belittling my lack of belief in magic sky fairies, if only your belief was backed by enough evidence to be as invulnerable as my lack of belief... My lack of belief in no way offers an alternative to belief, I have nothing to sell you, I simply am not buying what you are selling. Only a poor salesman requires faith, my lack of belief requires no faith... Well that takes us back to where we started, waiting till you receive the vision you desired, and when I quoted those verses from Gospel of Thomas that seemed to imply what we were discussing, that it is possible by the power of Jesus to receive such visions and knowledge. http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/85759-was-jesus-a-real-person/page-10#entry832904 Edited October 21, 2014 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) Well that takes us back to where we started, waiting till you receive the vision you desired, and when I quoted those verses from Gospel of Thomas that seemed to imply what we were discussing, that it is possible by the power of Jesus to receive such visions and knowledge. http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/85759-was-jesus-a-real-person/page-10#entry832904 They might imply that, they might imply almost anything you want but the proof is in the pudding. If Jesus is really god then yes that would be possible but I don't expect it to happen and until it does it remains speculation at best right up there with you telling me that aliens abduct you every night and that they are going to abduct me to prove your abductions are real. While this remains in the realm of possibility until it happens it's just horse feathers... Edited October 21, 2014 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 They might imply that, they might imply almost anything you want but the proof is in the pudding. If Jesus is really god then yes that would be possible but I don't expect it to happen and until it does it remains speculation at best right up there with you telling me that aliens abduct you every night and that they are going to abduct me to prove your abductions are real. While this remains in the realm of possibility until it happens it's just horse feathers... So what do we do in the meantime? God took 18 years to answer one of my questions before, patience will be a virtue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 (edited) So what do we do in the meantime? God took 18 years to answer one of my questions before, patience will be a virtue. Well you get to be pissed that i make light of your belief and I get to keep demanding evidence... Since i am 60 years old I think that if god exists and wanted me to know it he would know exactly how to convince me and done it by now.. Edited October 21, 2014 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Well you get to be pissed that i make light of your belief and I get to keep demanding evidence... Since i am 60 years old I think that if god exists and wanted me to know it he would know exactly how to convince me and done it by now.. Well you should listen to your elders, I'm turning 61 in a few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 Well you should listen to your elders, I'm turning 61 in a few days. As soon as one of my elders or anyone else produces empirical evidence i will listen... Well you should listen to your elders, I'm turning 61 in a few days. BTW why is your dream of Jesus any more relevant than an alien abductees dreams, which BTW they claim are not dreams... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 As soon as one of my elders or anyone else produces empirical evidence i will listen... BTW why is your dream of Jesus any more relevant than an alien abductees dreams, which BTW they claim are not dreams... I'm not saying anything about those that "experience" alien abductions. I evaded my paranoid "abductions" but had I not succeeded I wonder how different I'd be. Do alien abductions get discussed on the forum? Maybe you need to start a thread on the subject and see if anyone claims they are real. What is empirical evidence? Someone else explained that many years ago but I forget now. Empirical evidence (also empirical data, sense experience, empirical knowledge, or the a posteriori) is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation. So a vision is a sense experience and it is just a matter of you waiting now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 I'm not saying anything about those that "experience" alien abductions. I evaded my paranoid "abductions" but had I not succeeded I wonder how different I'd be. Do alien abductions get discussed on the forum? Maybe you need to start a thread on the subject and see if anyone claims they are real. What is empirical evidence? Someone else explained that many years ago but I forget now. So a vision is a sense experience and it is just a matter of you waiting now. No, for it to be empirical you have to be able to demonstrate it to someone else, really really believing something does not equal knowledge. My analogies with alien abduction is just to show that people can claim experience of anything but if you can't demonstrate it then its not evidence of anything but what you believe. And yes BTW we talk about aliens here from time to time but that is not part of this conversation except that it has better evidence than your god... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 No, for it to be empirical you have to be able to demonstrate it to someone else, really really believing something does not equal knowledge. My analogies with alien abduction is just to show that people can claim experience of anything but if you can't demonstrate it then its not evidence of anything but what you believe. And yes BTW we talk about aliens here from time to time but that is not part of this conversation except that it has better evidence than your god... So what evidence do you think God could produce that you would agree was empirical evidence? YouTube of me walking on water, would that be proof? Could you list 10 empirical proofs that would satisfy you please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 So what evidence do you think God could produce that you would agree was empirical evidence? YouTube of me walking on water, would that be proof? Could you list 10 empirical proofs that would satisfy you please? I think we have taken this thread off topic, if you really want to discuss this in detail i suggest you start your own thread. I have to say that if god is real and he wants me to know he is real then he knows exactly what would convince me. I could say something flippant like move planets or raise the long dead but technology could conceivably do these things, I have no idea how and see no reason to speculate in that direction. But the burden of proof isn't on me, I simply do not buy what theists are selling so proof would depend on what god you are selling. If you take a literal translation of the bible as factual then the god of the bible is demonstrably not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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