Soft "Science" and Evidence of Your Own Eyes.

[cladking]

I've been campaigning for many years to get these vases tested right along with the great pyramids but it has always fallen on deaf ears.  When some tests in 2015 showed exactly what i predicted they refused to release the results with the explanation that they didn't want to confuse the public.  Where I predicted it they lacked even hypotheses or speculation as to its cause.  

This time an object was found outside their control and it is not explicable in terms of modern beliefs about stone pounders and brutish force.  

Read the comments!  

[Bufofrog]

16 hours ago, cladking said:

When some tests in 2015 showed exactly what i predicted they refused to release the results with the explanation that they didn't want to confuse the public.  Where I predicted it they lacked even hypotheses or speculation as to its cause.

Do you have any evidence of these tests and what they showed.  If 'they' refused to release the results how do you know what the results are?

16 hours ago, cladking said:

This time an object was found outside their control and it is not explicable in terms of modern beliefs about stone pounders and brutish force.

Apparently there are many thousands of these stone vases owned by thousands of people and organizations, so I am not sure who these people are that you say are trying to control all of the vases.

I don't even know why you think someone would try to hide how they were 'really' made.

[cladking]

6 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

Do you have any evidence of these tests and what they showed.  If 'they' refused to release the results how do you know what the results are?

https://www.cnn.com/2015/11/10/africa/egypt-giza-pyramids-thermal-anomalies/index.html

The tests were so surprising to Egyptologists even though I had predicted them exactly that the initial reaction was to publish them and ask all Egyptologists for hypotheses regarding the causation.  Of course it quickly became more widely known that I had predicted them and there were no further stories released to the press.  There were several leaks as they tried to communicate outside the press which were sufficient to show my theory was probably accurate.  There were other goings on reported by visitors to he site including evidence that endoscopes were used and scientists were trying to devise a means to access this area.  It was all rather comedic.  

But the scientists didn't stop in 2015 and continued to gather more evidence that almost certainly corresponds to my theories and predictions but this is not certain since Zahi Hawass has refused to allow publication of more data even to Egyptologist for fear it might "confuse" people!!! 

There are continuing leaks and they still conform to my predictions.  They went looking for gold and spiral ramps and found neither and the failure to publish proves they found no ramps.  

6 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

Apparently there are many thousands of these stone vases owned by thousands of people and organizations, so I am not sure who these people are that you say are trying to control all of the vases.

I don't even know why you think someone would try to hide how they were 'really' made.

I'm sure no one knows how they were made.  But accessing these might be extremely difficult.  IMS there are fewer than 100 of them and there are UN laws now that essentially put the onus of proof on the owner rather than the countries of origin.  In other words if you own an ancient artefact you almost need to show a 4000 year trail of receipts to prove legal ownership.  Many items now are traded outside the eyes of the press, the foreign governments, and their agents.   There is a continual flow of objects out of the US especially from private collections.  Museums are usually supportive of both the Egyptian government and Egyptology.  

I agree that it shouldn't be overly difficult to get at least a few vases and other objects to check but Egyptology still controls the sites in Egypt and simply refuse the systematic application of  modern science to any of them.   

6 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

If 'they' refused to release the results how do you know what the results are?

It's not so much "they" as it is Dr Zahi Hawass who still calls all the shots.  No doubt he gets support from others, some of whom could be named.  He seems to believe he is the final authority and nobody has contradicted him.  

Egyptology is highly insular.  

[Bufofrog]

54 minutes ago, cladking said:

https://www.cnn.com/2015/11/10/africa/egypt-giza-pyramids-thermal-anomalies/index.html

The tests were so surprising to Egyptologists even though I had predicted them exactly that the initial reaction was to publish them and ask all Egyptologists for hypotheses regarding the causation.  Of course it quickly became more widely known that I had predicted them and there were no further stories released to the press.  There were several leaks as they tried to communicate outside the press which were sufficient to show my theory was probably accurate.  There were other goings on reported by visitors to he site including evidence that endoscopes were used and scientists were trying to devise a means to access this area.  It was all rather comedic.

This has nothing to do with stone vases as far as I can see.

 

55 minutes ago, cladking said:

But the scientists didn't stop in 2015 and continued to gather more evidence that almost certainly corresponds to my theories and predictions but this is not certain since Zahi Hawass has refused to allow publication of more data even to Egyptologist for fear it might "confuse" people!!! 

There are continuing leaks and they still conform to my predictions.  They went looking for gold and spiral ramps and found neither and the failure to publish proves they found no ramps.

What does that have to do with stone vases and vessels?

 

1 hour ago, cladking said:

I'm sure no one knows how they were made.  But accessing these might be extremely difficult.  IMS there are fewer than 100 of them and there are UN laws now that essentially put the onus of proof on the owner rather than the countries of origin.

Good we are on topic.  There are many ways the stone vessels could have been made.  It looks like the Metropolitan Museum of Art has about 115 ancient Egyptian stone vessels, so they don't seem as rare as you thought.

1 hour ago, cladking said:

It's not so much "they" as it is Dr Zahi Hawass who still calls all the shots.  No doubt he gets support from others, some of whom could be named.  He seems to believe he is the final authority and nobody has contradicted him.  

Egyptology is highly insular.

I don't see any big issues with obtaining any vases or vessels to test, but I also don't see burning reason to test them anyways, what do you expect to find?

If you would like to buy one of these ancient stone vessels to test it, here is where you can buy one:  Stone Vessels.

[cladking]

17 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

There are many ways the stone vessels could have been made.  It looks like the Metropolitan Museum of Art has about 115 ancient Egyptian stone vessels, so they don't seem as rare as you thought.

There are tens of thousands (if not more) of "Egyptian" earthenware, stone, and ceramic vases.  Egyptology has great expertise in most of this material.  But just as we fail to distinguish between the great pyramids which are huge and older and the tiny pyramids which are all in ruins there has been no differentiation between the older perfectly made vases and the later ones.  I believe most if not all of these were found in a single spot dating back before the end of the great pyramid building age.  I simply don't know how many were found and how many were mostly intact.  The initial report said a "cache".   

I know of no reason to believe that other vases and art objects share such characteristics. There are certainly more of these older artefacts that defy ready explanations as to their manufacture or use but none are known to have been made to such exacting standards.  As I've said many times, all the artefacts from the great pyramid building age should be subjected to systematic scientific testing.  Only this one, to date, have been.  

17 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

I don't see any big issues with obtaining any vases or vessels to test, but I also don't see burning reason to test them anyways, what do you expect to find?

Nothing has been scientifically examined systematically since Petrie at the end of the 19th century.  We have far more knowledge and instrumentation than we did a century and a quarter ago.  We have far more means to seek anomalies and so we can then study them to learn about the great pyramid builders and their lives.  

We can't see through the pyramids or see the characteristics of vases with our naked eyes.  We must use science and it is not being done!  The "Evidence of Your Own Eyes" does not extend into the ultraviolet or the specific gravity of ancient artefacts.  We must use instrumentation and knowledge to peer into the unknown and unseeable.  

[cladking]

This should help;

 

[Bufofrog]

2 hours ago, cladking said:

But just as we fail to distinguish between the great pyramids which are huge and older and the tiny pyramids which are all in ruins there has been no differentiation between the older perfectly made vases and the later ones.

I don't know what you are talking about.

2 hours ago, cladking said:

I believe

Your beliefs are not germane, evidence and citations are required.

2 hours ago, cladking said:

I know of no reason to believe that other vases and art objects share such characteristics.

What characteristics?

2 hours ago, cladking said:

There are certainly more of these older artefacts that defy ready explanations as to their manufacture or use but none are known to have been made to such exacting standards.

They don't defy explanation.

2 hours ago, cladking said:

Nothing has been scientifically examined systematically since Petrie at the end of the 19th century.

Evidence for this claim?

2 hours ago, cladking said:

We have far more means to seek anomalies and so we can then study them to learn about the great pyramid builders and their lives.  

We can't see through the pyramids or see the characteristics of vases with our naked eyes.  We must use science and it is not being done!  The "Evidence of Your Own Eyes" does not extend into the ultraviolet or the specific gravity of ancient artefacts.  We must use instrumentation and knowledge to peer into the unknown and unseeable.

What are you talking about?  Scientists and archeologist continue to study ancient Egypt.

[Ken Fabian]

 

On 1/31/2023 at 7:56 AM, cladking said:

is not explicable in terms of modern beliefs about stone pounders and brutish force.  

 

Precision doesn't always take advanced technology. The surface plate, that is (still) an important element of precision  engineering can be made with engineer's blue and a hand scraper. Hobbyists still grind telescope mirrors to very fine tolerances by hand. Having a reflective surface allows the human eye to detect minute variations of shape.

 

This is a real possibility, a simple, clever solution. Of course it uses ramps. This is another possibility -

And for moving the blocks to the site, these kinds of circle segments have been found and moving blocks by rolling them has been suggested as their use. The objection was there was no obvious way to secure them. I'd try wrapping with leather straps to see how they roll.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Ken Fabian

[cladking]

16 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:

Precision doesn't always take advanced technology. The surface plate, that is (still) an important element of precision  engineering can be made with engineer's blue and a hand scraper. Hobbyists still grind telescope mirrors to very fine tolerances by hand. Having a reflective surface allows the human eye to detect minute variations of shape.

Thank you.  I should have thought of this.  I'm not sure these capabilities would be transferrable to building vases however.  

16 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:

This is a real possibility, a simple, clever solution. Of course it uses ramps. This is another possibility -

I do not believe it was done this way.  The evidence of your own eyes suggests it was built in five steps and stones were relayed one step at a time up the 72 degree step sides.  Obviously one can argue the definition of "ramp" to include the 72 degree sides but the bottom line is that there was no team of stone draggers pulling them up and no teams of "ramp builders" as defined by modern beliefs.  

While I've delineated and pictured a great deal of evidence to show this is how it was built in this thread there is still a great deal more evidence which simply can't be pictured.  Most of the necessary evidence exists in ruins but not all of it can be pictured.  There is also a great deal of cultural context that supports this hypothesis including statements by the builders which state how it was built.  

I believe, because there is evidence, that almost no stone movement was made through muscles.  They used motive forces most of which were falling counterweights full of water.  I believe, again based on evidence much of which can be pictured, that the builders were a force of nature and masters of one moving piece machines. 

16 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:

And for moving the blocks to the site, these kinds of circle segments have been found and moving blocks by rolling them has been suggested as their use. The objection was there was no obvious way to secure them. I'd try wrapping with leather straps to see how they roll

I've never really cared much for this hypothesis for numerous reasons.  initially because it would be almost impossible to clad the structures and it should leave evidence in the stone work.  But it also flies in the face of the simple fact that the pyramid was stepped.  

The wooden cradles would make the stones more easily moved on level ground but uphill would be little easier and downhill a nightmare.   They are generally much too flimsy for most stones. 

22 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

I don't know what you are talking about.

Just as a 6' tall grasshopper couldn't even stand up there is a fundamental difference between a 50' pyramid ands a 500' pyramid.  It's not only the amount of stone and the work to lift it because more work has to be concentrated in a smaller area.  As ramps get longer there is not enough room to support the number of men who must work on them.  

22 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

Your beliefs are not germane, evidence and citations are required.

I believe these questions will never be answered without the use of modern science.  I believe they aren't using modern science because they believe the builders could have used nothing but ramps.  "Beliefs" very much are the issue when it comes to the great pyramids and the application of science.

22 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

What characteristics?

The perfection.

22 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

They don't defy explanation.

Nobody has come close to duplicating even the easiest of the vases.  

22 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

Evidence for this claim?

The evidence is the utter lack of evidence and published reports.  It's almost impossible to do anything on the Giza Plateau because it will not be allowed.  If you are willing to pay for it yourself AND entice a museum to return artefacts they might let you in but there's a five year wait. 

All technology that has been applied to the pyramid has been thrown at it to see hat sticks but very little has been done.  This is why you can't find any data about the pyramid or any of the artefacts.  When anomalies are found they are ignored.  Caves "known" to not exist are simply locked up when their existence is proven.  

But far worse is that there is no clearing house to record the many changes and extensive damage that is still occurring.  It is almost impossible to differentiate the original from modern changes.  Holes that are likely infrastructural are often filled with concrete for to accommodate tourists.  Holes are drilled everywhere in the search for gold and booty.  

Science applied systematically would measure everything and then it would investigate every anomaly.   None of this has been done since Petrie left over a century ago.  There would be stratigraphic microscopy and many other such results.  When infrared photography which has been commercially available for more than a century was finally applied the results were so stunning they not only refused to allow publication but never followed up on the dramatic anomalies.  

22 hours ago, Bufofrog said:

What are you talking about?  Scientists and archeologist continue to study ancient Egypt.

Allowing an isolated test from time to time does not constitute "study", I believe.  "Study" by definition must mean the usage of all applicable resources.  It must mean all science and all human knowledge coming to bear.  In reality not even the knowledge of a single individual has been brought to bear.  I've long said an engineering intern could solve how the pyramids were built on his summer vacation.  

Egyptologists are linguists.   

[Bufofrog]

2 hours ago, cladking said:

Just as a 6' tall grasshopper couldn't even stand up there is a fundamental difference between a 50' pyramid ands a 500' pyramid.  It's not only the amount of stone and the work to lift it because more work has to be concentrated in a smaller area.  As ramps get longer there is not enough room to support the number of men who must work on them.

I disagree.

2 hours ago, cladking said:

Nobody has come close to duplicating even the easiest of the vases.  

Don't be absurd, you don't actually believe that.

 

2 hours ago, cladking said:

The evidence is the utter lack of evidence and published reports.  It's almost impossible to do anything on the Giza Plateau because it will not be allowed.  If you are willing to pay for it yourself AND entice a museum to return artefacts they might let you in but there's a five year wait. 

All technology that has been applied to the pyramid has been thrown at it to see hat sticks but very little has been done.  This is why you can't find any data about the pyramid or any of the artefacts.  When anomalies are found they are ignored.  Caves "known" to not exist are simply locked up when their existence is proven.  

But far worse is that there is no clearing house to record the many changes and extensive damage that is still occurring.  It is almost impossible to differentiate the original from modern changes.  Holes that are likely infrastructural are often filled with concrete for to accommodate tourists.  Holes are drilled everywhere in the search for gold and booty.  

Science applied systematically would measure everything and then it would investigate every anomaly.   None of this has been done since Petrie left over a century ago.  There would be stratigraphic microscopy and many other such results.  When infrared photography which has been commercially available for more than a century was finally applied the results were so stunning they not only refused to allow publication but never followed up on the dramatic anomalies.  

A conspiracy theory is not evidence.

 

[cladking]

4 minutes ago, Bufofrog said:

A conspiracy theory is not evidence.

Then you have the results of testing that I've stated categorically has never been done!!!  

I didn't say that Egyptology is a 'conspiracy", I said they have never done great amounts of testing from chemical to microscopic and they've done no systematic testing except for stratigraphic work since the t9ime of Petrie 125 years ago.  There is probably no conspiracy, and I certainly don't believe one exists, there is merely the professional belief that the answers are already known so testing is superfluous.  

Before the infrared testing showed that there are all sorts of structures inside G1 the Egyptological position said that the pyramid is too homogenous to show any kind of detail.  

 

[Bufofrog]

1 hour ago, cladking said:

Then you have the results of testing that I've stated categorically has never been done!!!  

What is it that you think we're missing from our understanding of ancient Egypt?

[cladking]

39 minutes ago, Bufofrog said:

What is it that you think we're missing from our understanding of ancient Egypt?

Principally we are missing the simple fact that ancient Egyptians didn't think anything at all like Egyptologists.   

Egyptologists insist on parsing what they believe are incantations in order to understand them.   The reality is there are no incantations and they only seem to be because Egyptologists can't understand the writing that can not be parsed because it is like  bird's song, computer code, or a mathematical equation.  The meaning disappears when it is parsed in any way at all.  

Because they wholly misapprehend the people they misapprehend the artefacts and everything else about the culture and the physical evidence.  

45 minutes ago, Bufofrog said:

What is it that you think we're missing from our understanding of ancient Egypt?

Because the tests have never been done we are missing the reality of how pyramids were built.  Were the truth known that it was built with linear funiculars it would be be far easier to see this in the ruins and in the cultural context which said "Osiris tows the earth by means of balance and that it is "downward" that provides the motive force to build".  They virtually used these exact words but it is invisible to anyone who believes ancient people couldn't even manipulate a wheel and appealed to many gods in every sentence.  You can't parse any sentence correctly if you don't know the referents and this goes many times over for Ancient Language which was literal and could not be parsed.  It meant only exactly what it said but Egyptologists assumed from the very beginning that it was incantation.  

[Bufofrog]

1 hour ago, cladking said:

Principally we are missing the simple fact that ancient Egyptians didn't think anything at all like Egyptologists.   

Egyptologists insist on parsing what they believe are incantations in order to understand them.   The reality is there are no incantations and they only seem to be because Egyptologists can't understand the writing that can not be parsed because it is like  bird's song, computer code, or a mathematical equation.  The meaning disappears when it is parsed in any way at all.  

Because they wholly misapprehend the people they misapprehend the artefacts and everything else about the culture and the physical evidence.

You didn't answer the question, you just reiterated we are missing something.

1 hour ago, cladking said:

Because the tests have never been done we are missing the reality of how pyramids were built.  Were the truth known that it was built with linear funiculars it would be be far

Ok.  You think the pyramids were built using linear funiculars and not ramps.  There is no test that I can think that could prove it either way.

[cladking]

23 minutes ago, Bufofrog said:

You didn't answer the question, you just reiterated we are missing something.

What's missing is that words like "think", "believe", "ramp", and all abstractions didn't even exist in Ancient Language.   They had a mere handful of words and they were almost all nouns.   The language breaks Zipf's Law because they not only didn't think like Egyptologists they didn't think at all just like "all" non-human species.   

I didn't say this simply because I thought that saying they didn't think like Egyptologists would suffice and it is not my intent to take this thread off topic.  We can't imagine a metaphysical, digital, and representative language used by people who each thought exactly alike and didn't even experience "thought" at all. And since we can't my showing it it can and does exist will probably do very little good.  

I believe I answered your question very comprehensively in the last post but have elaborated only  little here because I'd like to keep this as clos4e as I can to pictures and things that can be seen.  

31 minutes ago, Bufofrog said:

Ok.  You think the pyramids were built using linear funiculars and not ramps.  There is no test that I can think that could prove it either way.

There are a virtually infinite number of tests that this can and has already appeared.  Hence the thread.   "Funiculars" make numerous specific predictions beyond what has already been delineated.  For example if chemical testing were done there would likely be several places that it is seen.  Protected areas on the north side should have copper hydroxide deposits cause by the chemical interaction of copper sulfate, sodium decahydrate, sodium chloride,  and calcium carbonate as described in ancient literature.  There is probably still significant CO2 dissolved in the water at the bottom of the Osiris Shaft.  There are numerous other ways this can show up.  Ultraviolet imaging will probably show returns under the chevrons on the north side.  The infrared imaging already showed most of the results I predicted but more extensive study will show many more.  Microscopic stratigraphy done inside the great pyramids will show none were used as a tombs and other data will appear.   There has already been vaterite found in the walls of the horizontal passage but i can't show a picture if this!!!  

There will be sand all through the walls here and it is the cause of many of the high density regions.  

All the testing needs to be done.  And then all the anomalies will need follow up.  Most of the work needed is the technical stuff that has never been done but there is also more mundane things like excavating the cave at the "Tomb of the Birds", and eventually clearing out the massive fissure just to the north of G1 in which  Vyse failed to get all the way.  

There are barometric readings that need to be undertaken in the great pyramids and especially the Bent Pyramid.  By this means the cause of anomalous air movements can be discovered.   I have little doubt we'd quickly find caves open to the atmosphere under them.  

Many of these tests would probably provide new pictures for this thread.  

[cladking]

This was quick.  there's already n update. 

 

 

[cladking]

On 9/29/2014 at 9:21 AM, cladking said:

There is some speculation of why the builders would import sand to a desert but it'd hard to imagine hauling sand from 150 miles away and then up 71' into the Great Pyramid for any purpose at all when it is already a desert. Certainly it's possible that they used this sand for some important purpose so they imported it. Certainly the high density at the entrance to the north could be caused by something other than this same sand just as the pockets of density variations along the horizontal passage might also be independent of the quartz sand. We don't know and there aren't even hypotheses to address these questions for the main part. This is considered simple irrelevancy but this is interpretation of evidence. Just because orthodoxy believes this sand is irrelevant, it does not cease to exist except to those who have their minds made up. There is still sand in the walls and quite possible this sand extends all the way to the entrance. This condition is "predicted" or explained by my theory so it becomes evidence for my theory. It is a means to test my theory.

Here I am referring to the horizontal section from the queens chamber to the chevrons above the entrance of the great Pyramid.  I believe this entire length has sand in the walls in some places with most of it near the exterior.  

Today they've announced I was right all along that there is at least a 30' section of passage that was previously unknown through here.  

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-36351-0

There's also a picture taken from a boroscope inserted at the chevrons;

[cladking]

It appears the precision involved with the ancient vases has been confirmed;

They have good provenance.  

Petrie himself said stones were fitted on the pyramid with "optical precision".  

The evidence of our own eyes says our interpretations of the ancient societies and what they left is all wrong.   

 

 

[cladking]

There have been a couple new developments very highly supportive of my hypotheses;

First is that Egyptology now recognizes something I've known for years; All of the so called "Valley Temples" which each great pyramid has lines up along the edge of an ancient arm of the Nile River.
 

https://researchers.mq.edu.au/en/publications/the-discovery-of-the-ahramat-nile-branch-a-hidden-ancient-waterwa

This is of critical importance since it describes the routes of casing stones and supplies up a long "ramp" straight to the very bottom of the pyramid. Since it is the bottom it strongly suggests there were no ramps to take stones up the side of the structure. Instead the "valley temple" is in actuality a "port" and the "Mortuary Temple" is actually a mason's shop that the builders called "The Great Saw Palace" because it made some half a million cuts through Tura Limestone using pendulum saws powered by water. There was no "Holy Walkway" down to the port but just a sloped surface they called "The Ladder of Set" and we call "The Causeway" and was used as a funicular run.

Second and perhaps more importantly is that a team of interdisciplinary scientists have found extensive evidence for the use of hydraulics to build Djoser's Pyramid.  Remarkably they even agree with me that the excavations around the enclosure was full of water and that a river flowed through what Egyptologists call the "Hypostyle Hall" on it's southern side!

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0306690

Furthermore they go on to suggest that water was removed in the same way from the catchment as I propose and is evident at the Great Pyramid:

"The excavations performed on the eastern wall of the Gisr el-Mudir highlighted a lower structural quality [45]. Its shape is similar to that of the western wall, with a distinctive parabolic profile (Fig 6, line C-D). Furthermore, it discloses two topographical singularities: first, its overall altitude is a few meters lower than the western wall (Fig 7A). Then, in the southern part of the eastern wall, a geophysics anomaly (G2 in Figs 4B and Fig 6) was found to be a series of massive, roughly cut, ‘L’-shaped megaliths [45, 66]. Before our study, these megaliths were thought to possibly be the remains of a monumental gateway–due to their similarities with the Djoser’s complex enclosure’s entrance–but their purpose was not specified [66]. According to our analysis, these megaliths could be the side elements of the water outlets, possibly slit openings [76] that were likely closed off by wood beams but could be opened to drain the basin. They are consistently found near a trench that is 2.2 m deep [45], which we believe is possibly the canal that guided outflowing water. In a nutshell, the eastern wall likely acted as a second check dam to the Abusir flows."