Clarifying the "Predestination of Fate by God" Paradigm

[taufiqhaque93]

Is life and everything that it stands for predestined? If so, what's the point of God granting its existence?

 

Common questions among atheists actually. It's something they will use to drive the belief that they are predestined to be atheists, so it's not their fault.

 

Truth: Our lives are predestined. At the same time, it's not predestined. Meaning, God has given us the free will to make our own choices in life. In this case, predestination essentially means that despite giving us the free will, God knows what we will be choosing.

 

So God ultimately knows well ahead whether we will be going to heaven or hell. It does not necessarily mean he has hand picked favorites among us to grant heaven and throw the rest to hell.

 

We all have the choice, the free will to choose our paths and God knows what it will be. He is responsible to give us the power to make the right or wrong choices. He is not, however, responsible for choosing our fate during our creation, that "he will go to hell" and "he will go to heaven".

 

Sincerely,

Biochemistry Graduate

[Strange]

So God ultimately knows well ahead whether we will be going to heaven or hell.

 

Then we how do we have any choice?

 

I decide to be a saint. God already knows I will be going to heaven.

 

But if I change my mind and go on a killing spree the, either:

 

a) God was wrong. Which is impossible.

b) I can't change my mind (because it would prove God wrong). Therefore I don't have a choice. Therefore I don't have free will.

[Syn5]

Let's use my formula:

 

God Alpha (Full Awareness) and Jesus (Matter) and Holy Spirit (Energy) and Father (Entropy) = Human Realm (Partial Awareness) and Jesus (Matter) and Holy Spirit (Energy) and Father (Entropy) = God Omega (Complete Awareness)

 

Where Alpha=Omega

Edited September 29, 2014 by Syn5

[Strange]

Let's use my formula:

 

God Alpha (Full Awareness) and Jesus (Matter) and Holy Spirit (Energy) and Father (Entropy) = Human Realm (Partial Awareness) and Jesus (Matter) and Holy Spirit (Energy) and Father (Entropy) = God Omega (Complete Awareness)

 

Where Alpha=Omega

 

Please stop polluting other threads with nonsense.

[Syn5]

 

Please stop polluting other threads with nonsense.

I'm coming up with a logical answer.

 

According to the Bible. God is both Alpha and Omega.

 

If God speaks truth, we know:

 

He's beyond time/space.

 

If he is beyond space/time he can be both right and wrong.

 

If you take away time and space you need not worry about being wrong or right. Those are concepts based purely on perspective.

 

Free Will is perfectly compatible with my formula.

[Moontanman]

I'm coming up with a logical answer.

 

According to the Bible. God is both Alpha and Omega.

 

If God speaks truth, we know:

 

He's beyond time/space.

 

If he is beyond space/time he can be both right and wrong.

 

If you take away time and space you need not worry about being wrong or right. Those are concepts based purely on perspective.

 

Free Will is perfectly compatible with my formula.

 

 

If frogs had wings they wouldn't bust their little slimy butt every time they jump....

[taufiqhaque93]

 

Then we how do we have any choice?

 

I decide to be a saint. God already knows I will be going to heaven.

 

But if I change my mind and go on a killing spree the, either:

 

a) God was wrong. Which is impossible.

b) I can't change my mind (because it would prove God wrong). Therefore I don't have a choice. Therefore I don't have free will.

You decide to be a saint, God knew. Then you decide to go on a killing spree, God also knew. You are free to choose whatever life you lead. God knows all your decisions you will make. That's the whole point.

[Strange]

You decide to be a saint, God knew. Then you decide to go on a killing spree, God also knew. You are free to choose whatever life you lead. God knows all your decisions you will make. That's the whole point.

 

So he doesn't really know because every time I change my mind, he turns out to have been wrong.

 

If he knows in advance all the changes I will make, then I don't have the freedom not to make them.

 

If he knows in advance all the choices I am going to make, but then I make different choices then I show that he is wrong. Which is impossible. Therefore I can't make any choices other than the ones God knows about. Therefore I don't have free will.

 

Or God doesn't know everything. Therefore he is not God.

[andrewcellini]

So God ultimately knows well ahead whether we will be going to heaven or hell. It does not necessarily mean he has hand picked favorites among us to grant heaven and throw the rest to hell.

 

We all have the choice, the free will to choose our paths and God knows what it will be. He is responsible to give us the power to make the right or wrong choices. He is not, however, responsible for choosing our fate during our creation, that "he will go to hell" and "he will go to heaven".

 

clarify then to what extent our lives are predestined. if you mean that the entirety of life is plotted out, birth to death with every event accounted for then this is in direct contradiction with having free will.

 

how can you build something to act one way and expect it to operate in another? seems like god has no idea what he's done.

[Strange]

You decide to be a saint, God knew. Then you decide to go on a killing spree, God also knew. You are free to choose whatever life you lead. God knows all your decisions you will make. That's the whole point.

 

Let's make this more concrete. Imagine we get God to write down a list of all the choices (good or bad) I am going to make.

 

Now, can I look at this list and decide that I will make different choices? Yes or No.

 

If "Yes" then God was wrong.

If "No" then I don't have free will.

 

So which is it?

[taufiqhaque93]

 

So he doesn't really know because every time I change my mind, he turns out to have been wrong.

 

If he knows in advance all the changes I will make, then I don't have the freedom not to make them.

 

If he knows in advance all the choices I am going to make, but then I make different choices then I show that he is wrong. Which is impossible. Therefore I can't make any choices other than the ones God knows about. Therefore I don't have free will.

 

Or God doesn't know everything. Therefore he is not God.

Did I not say, "God has given us the free will to make our own choices in life. In this case, predestination essentially means that despite giving us the free will, God knows what we will be choosing."?

 

In essence, God is all-knowing. You change your mind about something then he knows. He didn't cause that change, he just knows. Because him causing that change would mean he is taking away your free will, which is not the case!

 

 

clarify then to what extent our lives are predestined. if you mean that the entirety of life is plotted out, birth to death with every event accounted for then this is in direct contradiction with having free will.

 

how can you build something to act one way and expect it to operate in another? seems like god has no idea what he's done.

It is in no way a contradiction. What is free will? The power to do whatever you want. Well, we have that as God has given it to us. Life is not plotted out. From our birth to death, whatever situation we face can be caused by God and his creation, ie, your environment. But what we choose to do in that situation is completely upto us. The fact that God knows what choices we will make throughout our life span in no way means that we don't have free will.

 

 

 

Let's make this more concrete. Imagine we get God to write down a list of all the choices (good or bad) I am going to make.

 

Now, can I look at this list and decide that I will make different choices? Yes or No.

 

If "Yes" then God was wrong.

If "No" then I don't have free will.

 

So which is it?

No offence but that kind of sounds ridiculous. This life is merely a multiple (more like infinite) choice test. I'm sure we have all gone to school and we know what an examination is like.

 

What you're essentially doing is asking God for the answers to all the questions. (which you're actually supposed to do through supplication, not the topic though)

Why would he show you, a human under examination, the list? God is powerful beyond rational thought. But even when thinking rationally, your question doesn't make sense.

 

Which moves us to your answer, "No". But does that really mean you don't have free will? Taking us back to the examination analogy, if the examiner doesn't tell you the answers to the question paper, does it mean you don't have the free will to try and choose the right answer? Or get the wrong answer? Or give up and leave the classroom? So on?

[Strange]

Which moves us to your answer, "No". But does that really mean you don't have free will? Taking us back to the examination analogy, if the examiner doesn't tell you the answers to the question paper, does it mean you don't have the free will to try and choose the right answer? Or get the wrong answer? Or give up and leave the classroom? So on?

 

Your dogma is making you irrational. It isn't about whether you know the answers or not.

 

Let me rephrase and simplify the problem.

 

Tomorrow Mr Smith is either going to save someone's life or kill someone. He hasn't decided yet.

 

According to you God knows what he will do. Let us make sure that God doesn't cheat by making him crave the decision on a block of stone. Imagine he writes "John Smith will decide to kill. (Note to self, make space in Hell)"

 

Now. John Smith has free will. So in the morning he can decide to either save a life or kill someone, yes? There is no restriction. So lets say he decides to save a life. Therefore God was wrong.

 

"Ah!" You say. "God knew he would do that." So what God actually wrote on the tablet was "John Smith will decide to save a life. (Note to self, make space in Heaven)"

 

But. John Smith has free will. So in the morning he can decide to either save a life or kill someone, yes? There is no restriction. So lets say he decides to kill. Therefore God was wrong.

 

You can't have it both ways. Either God is omniscient and knows what we will decide and therefore we have no free will. Or we have free will and he can't know what we will do.

[andrewcellini]

Did I not say, "God has given us the free will to make our own choices in life. In this case, predestination essentially means that despite giving us the free will, God knows what we will be choosing."?

 

In essence, God is all-knowing. You change your mind about something then he knows. He didn't cause that change, he just knows. Because him causing that change would mean he is taking away your free will, which is not the case!

 

 

It is in no way a contradiction. What is free will? The power to do whatever you want. Well, we have that as God has given it to us. Life is not plotted out. From our birth to death, whatever situation we face can be caused by God and his creation, ie, your environment. But what we choose to do in that situation is completely upto us. The fact that God knows what choices we will make throughout our life span in no way means that we don't have free will.

well then we don't have free will because we don't have the power to do whatever we want.

 

but assuming we have free will, how is it meaningful to have such a property seeing as god knows the outcome anyway and in fact is the origin of the outcome and the situation you face. this scenario is essentially indistinguishable from hard determinism when looked at from the outside.

 

god is omniscient by your definition correct? god must know when we're about to change minds besides when we actually change them. if he only knows when we've changed our minds then he isn't all knowing.

Edited September 30, 2014 by andrewcellini

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Perhaps the predestined part prefers to order and laws of nature, in that way predestination is factual. For Man his choices don't really matter much, because at some point it diverges into natures order and laws, so your life is indeed predestined. The real question here is what of life is independently important, to the calculator we go, lets see............... outside of whats relevant to mankind, and all of mankind and his particulars will diverge into natures law and order, Nothing really.

[taufiqhaque93]

 

Your dogma is making you irrational. It isn't about whether you know the answers or not.

 

Let me rephrase and simplify the problem.

 

Tomorrow Mr Smith is either going to save someone's life or kill someone. He hasn't decided yet.

 

According to you God knows what he will do. Let us make sure that God doesn't cheat by making him crave the decision on a block of stone. Imagine he writes "John Smith will decide to kill. (Note to self, make space in Hell)"

 

Now. John Smith has free will. So in the morning he can decide to either save a life or kill someone, yes? There is no restriction. So lets say he decides to save a life. Therefore God was wrong.

 

"Ah!" You say. "God knew he would do that." So what God actually wrote on the tablet was "John Smith will decide to save a life. (Note to self, make space in Heaven)"

 

But. John Smith has free will. So in the morning he can decide to either save a life or kill someone, yes? There is no restriction. So lets say he decides to kill. Therefore God was wrong.

 

You can't have it both ways. Either God is omniscient and knows what we will decide and therefore we have no free will. Or we have free will and he can't know what we will do.

You were heading towards the write direction until the part where you said God writes down what we will do beforehand. It doesn't matter much though, considering we will be making the choice that God knows (not causes, mind you) anyway. Him knowing our every step doesn't mean we don't have free will. Him knowing our choices and him causing them are 2 separate things. The beauty of his mercy is that he doesn't write anything down until and unless we actually do it, with a little exception (see end note).

 

Everyone here seems to have the idea that if we suddenly change our mind from what we were supposed to do, then God would be wrong. Thing is he knows that we would change our mind in the first place. He didn't cause it, thus we did have our choice to do what we wanted. He knew what we will choose and what we will avoid. And should we change our mind, he would know that as well.

 

Allah is a timeless being with no before or after. When it comes to creation, he says "be!" and it is. When someone has such infinite power, you cannot be surprised that he knows all the outcomes of all his creations. Even the angels asked him when he created Adam, the first man, what his plan is. His reply would always be, "I know that which you do not". So, who in this puny world are we to question his plan?

 

We are merely irrational children with more theories than facts of this universe. Really. How did we learn about this universe? Through observation. This and all the laws that it follows is one of the infinite possibilities from which God have created. And he has encouraged us to learn about it. Go ahead and read the Quran, he has actually given us a head start.

 

 

The Quran says about Allah's mercy: Do a good deed, Allah will consider it a good deed. Think of doing a good deed but you're stopped in your tracks from doing it, Allah will consider it a good deed. Think of doing a bad deed but you stop yourself from doing it, Allah will consider it a good deed. Do a bad deed, Allah will consider it a bad deed. Repent and ask for forgiveness (and never do it again), and Allah will turn all your earned sins into sawab (reward for good deed).

[Strange]

Him knowing our every step doesn't mean we don't have free will. Him knowing our choices and him causing them are 2 separate things.

 

Agreed. I didn't say he causes it. That is not the point. Neither is it relevant whether he writes it down or not. (And this is not even a religious argument, just one of pure logic.)

 

The point is, IF he knows in advance all the choices we will make; then we WILL make those choices. (Otherwise he would be wrong, which is unthinkable.)

 

Do you agree with that?

Edited October 1, 2014 by Strange

[Delta1212]

 

Then we how do we have any choice?

 

I decide to be a saint. God already knows I will be going to heaven.

 

But if I change my mind and go on a killing spree the, either:

 

a) God was wrong. Which is impossible.

b) I can't change my mind (because it would prove God wrong). Therefore I don't have a choice. Therefore I don't have free will.

Or God knew you were going to change your mind all along.

[Strange]

Or God knew you were going to change your mind all along.

 

But then I was always going to change my mind. Therefore it wasn't a choice; it was predestined.

[Delta1212]

 

But then I was always going to change my mind. Therefore it wasn't a choice; it was predestined.

I knew you were going to say that.

[Strange]

I knew you were going to say that.

 

OMG

[harshgoel1975]

Is life and everything that it stands for predestined? If so, what's the point of God granting its existence?

 

Common questions among atheists actually. It's something they will use to drive the belief that they are predestined to be atheists, so it's not their fault.

 

Truth: Our lives are predestined. At the same time, it's not predestined. Meaning, God has given us the free will to make our own choices in life. In this case, predestination essentially means that despite giving us the free will, God knows what we will be choosing.

 

So God ultimately knows well ahead whether we will be going to heaven or hell. It does not necessarily mean he has hand picked favorites among us to grant heaven and throw the rest to hell.

 

We all have the choice, the free will to choose our paths and God knows what it will be. He is responsible to give us the power to make the right or wrong choices. He is not, however, responsible for choosing our fate during our creation, that "he will go to hell" and "he will go to heaven".

 

Sincerely,

Biochemistry Graduate

 

our destiny is written every moment.. as we act..... it's like a karma- time frame of working... we get what we do.. and the ripple of our doing echo in the future...i.e destiny.....so by doing a act.. we write out destiny .. so determine the outcome ( chance of happening a particular event ) .. "so as we act.. we write our destiny as well"....we are free to choose our act... but as we co-exist with others...it is the vector sum that form the resultant... hell and heaven are undefined in science ... but as per my understanding... everything is here and you have to live your acts ( karma) here itself....it's like a autonomous working like physical law of nature ...no need of o a controller entity so called GOD.....

[MigL]

You do realize, Strange, that you are using logic and scientific methodology to disprove a belief or faith, which by definition has no requirement for proof.

Just bang your head against the wall.

It'll be less painful and more useful.

 

Not that I have a problem with people of faith.

[Strange]

You do realize, Strange, that you are using logic and scientific methodology to disprove a belief or faith

 

I am not trying to disprove a belief or faith. Just pointing out that omniscience is incompatible with free will. As I have no particular opinion on God or gods, nor on the existence of free will, I am not really interested in disproving anything.

[Delta1212]

 

I am not trying to disprove a belief or faith. Just pointing out that omniscience is incompatible with free will. As I have no particular opinion on God or gods, nor on the existence of free will, I am not really interested in disproving anything.

I think omniscience is only incompatible with free will if the definition of free will presumes an actor that is somehow separated from the mechanics of reality making the choice.

 

i.e. My brain runs in a very complex but theoretically predictable way. Given enough information on the current state of my brain and the sensory inputs, my brain's reaction would be predictable. However, because the decision is being made by my brain, and because I am my brain, I am still making the decision. There may only be one decision that I can make in that scenario, but it is still my decision because it was arrived at by processing the situation through my brain. Making a different choice would have required a different brain configuration and, consequently, a different person making the decision. There is only a difficulty with calling this free will if we're insisting on defining free will as a choice made by some entity that rides in the brain but isn't directly affected by its processes. I don't really believe in a "soul" as such, so this doesn't really present me with any difficulty.

 

I just don't think that being predictable in your choices means that you didn't make them. Someone who knows me quite well can predict what I'm going to order at a particular restaurant with near certainty. Someone who knows me better than anyone alive currently does and keeps careful track of my moods and general mental states while making decisions could probably predict what I was going to order off any many at any given restaurant given the full circumstances surrounding that order. That doesn't mean I didn't actually pick what I wanted.

 

Now, I'm arguing from the perspective that our choices could be pre-destined based on who we are without violating our free will (because of who I am, this is the choice I would always make in this circumstance, etc). You could conceivably argue that we don't get to choose who we are, which in this scenario is the determining factor in our choices, but since if you were someone else, you would obviously not be you and we'd then just be discussing somebody else, I personally treat that line of discussion as a bit of a non sequitur.

 

Keep in mind, I don't think that omniscience is actually possible, nor do I know how closely reality actually hews to the "clockwork brain" since we don't know enough about how the brain works and do know enough about how reality works to say that it's entirely possible that there's a bit of randomness in there.

 

I just don't think that omniscience and free will are logically mutually exclusive in all cases as generally gets argued, and actually find most of the arguments trying to get around what I feel is a non-existent problem tend to wind up weakening free will in order to make it mutually exclusive with predictability.

[MonDie]

^OP

 

So what? God's still punishing me when he's actually the one to blame.