Jkemp Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 The universe creates energy by creating life. Regards, Jason Kemp -3
Acme Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Please don't waste our time by creating noise. Disregards, Acme
swansont Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Where does the energy to create life come from?
Strange Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 The universe creates energy by creating life. This is an unsupported assertion and, as such, can be ignored. Please disprove this statement There is nothing to be disproved. Will that do? If you want to present an idea with either some theoretical or evidential support so that it can be discussed, then please feel free. But coming up with random, unfalsifiable statements like this ("there is a family of baby dragons in the Oort cloud", "the insides of black holes are solid chocolate", "electrons smell of vanilla", etc.) is just a waste of time.
Jkemp Posted October 22, 2014 Author Posted October 22, 2014 The assertion is based on the following: Human free will is an illusion.p31 Ridicules free will under the presumption that it had to arise by evolution alone. "Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets." "It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is an illusion." source: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Nave-html/faithpathh/hawkingpres2.html By creating life, the universe creates energy and life plays the same role as any other energy source. Sorry for the unclear post, it's my first one... shocker.
sunshaker Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) The biocentric universe, without life there is no energy. So life creates the universe, which in turn creates life? consciousness must exist and that without it “matter dwells in an undetermined state of probability. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biocentric_universe energy and time, are unknown, except by probabilities. Edited October 22, 2014 by sunshaker
John Cuthber Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Disprove "The universe creates energy by creating life." OK Energy was here first.and thus it can not have been created by life. QED.
swansont Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 That quote does not come from the link. What is the supposed connection between energy and free will?
Jkemp Posted October 22, 2014 Author Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) Swan, The quote does come from the link, you'll need to scroll down. John, I would argue you can't prove energy came before life, and I'm not on some jesus or god trip here. Simply put and objectively looking at the universe; life is a product of the universe and it creates energy. It had never occurred to me that life is, governed by a specific set of laws or rules, no different than a comet, or a star or any particle in the universe. Thus this is the origin of the question. So to clarify, or amend, my original question; and at the risk of creating "noise"; Given the laws of physics is it acceptable to say that the creation of life is the creation of energy? Edited October 22, 2014 by Jkemp
Strange Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 The quote does come from the link, you'll need to scroll down. But the existence or otherwise of free will still has nothing to do with your claim. life is a product of the universe and it creates energy There is no evidence for that and it contradicts conservation laws. Given the laws of physics is it acceptable to say that the creation of life is the creation of energy? No.
John Cuthber Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 John, I would argue you can't prove energy came before life, and I'm not on some jesus or god trip here. Simply put and objectively looking at the universe; life is a product of the universe and it creates energy. It had never occurred to me that life is, governed by a specific set of laws or rules, no different than a comet, or a star or any particle in the universe. Thus this is the origin of the question. So to clarify, or amend, my original question; and at the risk of creating "noise"; Given the laws of physics is it acceptable to say that the creation of life is the creation of energy? "I would argue you can't prove energy came before life" Really? OK the only life we know about is here on Earth. We know roughly how old that life is. We also know how the Earth's elements came into being- for example, anything further along the periodic table than iron was made in a supernova. We also know that the very early universe was very hot- it had plenty of energy, but any life would have been destroyed. "Given the laws of physics is it acceptable to say that the creation of life is the creation of energy?" no. The process we call life is driven by energy so the energy has to be there first. Just out of curiosity, do you plan to accept that you are wrong, or are you going to ignore any and all evidence so you can go on believing your idea?
Jkemp Posted October 22, 2014 Author Posted October 22, 2014 Swan, The conservation law applies to isolated systems. I don't think the universe is an isolated system. The fact is life is created from particles in the universe, and like any other matter it serves a purpose. I do understand the question is similar to the question "where does time begin" or "where does space begin/end" to a certain extent. Although it seems life can/should be framed or observed in the same manner as other particles. We like to think we are more special than we are. John, I'm not ignoring anything, and I could very well be wrong. I think perhaps you could concede that we have observed very little (source below) f you were to be very generous with labeling what we've explored so far, and take the volume of a sphere with the centre at the Sun and the radius equal to how far Voyager 1 has reached(about 125 AU), it would encompass the volume equal to 0.032 cubic light-years.The observable universe's radius is estimated at about 45 billion light years, so its total volume would be 3.7*10^32 cubic light years, or 37 with 31 zeroes. This makes our solar system as 'explored' by Voyager be a whooping 0.00000000000000000000000000000001 percent of the observable universe.But, as mentioned earlier, it's a very generous number. We don't have probes around every planet. We had probes fly by every planet, if that counts. We've landed probes on just a few, and they rarely remained operational for long.Bottom line: Earth is a tiny speck in the mind-boggling vastness of space.Read more: http://www.physicsforums.com So perhaps there are different forms of "life" out there in the small portion we haven't observed. But clearly you know a lot.
Strange Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 The conservation law applies to isolated systems. I don't think the universe is an isolated system. You don't have to treat the universe as an isolated system to prove conservation laws. You can take a subset of the universe, isolate it and prove that you are wrong. The fact is life is created from particles in the universe, and like any other matter it serves a purpose. What evidence do you have that any matter has a "purpose"? But perhaps you need to define what you mean by purpose. And then explain how your idea of purpose is relevant to the violation of physical laws. I think perhaps you could concede that we have observed very little (source below) I don't know where that quote is from or who it is by or how it is relevant. Similarly, you still haven't explained the relevance of free will (or what you mean by free will). You seem to think that throwing another non sequitur into the conversation every time you are shown to be wrong is a productive way of discussing things. It isn't.
Unity+ Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 The universe creates energy by creating life. Regards, Jason Kemp Disprove the existence of unicorns.
Acme Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 ... So to clarify, or amend, my original question; and at the risk of creating "noise"; Given the laws of physics is it acceptable to say that the creation of life is the creation of energy? Noise is as noise does. To what end do you make your noise?
Jkemp Posted October 22, 2014 Author Posted October 22, 2014 Strange, Point taken on non sequitur, I will focus on this. What evidence do you have that any matter has a "purpose"? But perhaps you need to define what you mean by purpose. And then explain how your idea of purpose is relevant to the violation of physical laws. Newtons 3rd law is where I'm coming from -- Life is an equal and opposite reaction. -4
Strange Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) Newtons 3rd law is where I'm coming from -- Life is an equal and opposite reaction. Newton's third law is about force, in the very specific sense used in physics. It says nothing about life, karma, love, interior design, the optimum cooking time for turkey, or any of the other irrelevant nonsense people try and relate it to. This appears to be yet another non sequitur. Edited October 22, 2014 by Strange
Delta1212 Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Strange, Point taken on non sequitur, I will focus on this. Newtons 3rd law is where I'm coming from -- Life is an equal and opposite reaction. An equal and opposite reaction to what?
Jkemp Posted October 22, 2014 Author Posted October 22, 2014 I will take my ball and go home. Thank you very much for the time and effort.
Strange Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 I will take my ball and go home. Thank you very much for the time and effort. Why not stay and actually answer some questions?
Jkemp Posted October 22, 2014 Author Posted October 22, 2014 I would be happy to answer some questions but in the end it's just noise. I'm confident inside a black hole there is no chocolate... but you never know. I'm just learning and had a very juvenile idea.
Delta1212 Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 I would be happy to answer some questions but in the end it's just noise. I'm confident inside a black hole there is no chocolate... but you never know. I'm just learning and had a very juvenile idea.I think it might be worth your time to examine the specifics why creating life doesn't create energy for your own benefit and education. I'm sure plenty of people here would be willing to help in a patient and friendly manner. Just be a little but more careful about how you pose questions, because "disprove this statement" is less of a question and more of a command, and it's a command that is very difficult to fulfill because "disproving" something is, strictly speaking, physically impossible outside of demonstrating that something is mathematically inconsistent with itself (which does not apply to a whole host of wrong ideas), so the closest we can come is with a preponderance of evidence to the contrary, which is quite a lot of work to assemble even when it's all already known, and can still be dismissed as "not absolute proof" by someone who really wants to. And a very large number of people want to, so anything that looks like someone setting up to do that tends to be regarded with an extra degree of suspicion. It's far better to say "Here is my idea. Is there anything wrong with it and, if so, what?"
Jkemp Posted October 22, 2014 Author Posted October 22, 2014 Thank you very much for the feedback. If I had it to do over I would. 1
swansont Posted October 22, 2014 Posted October 22, 2014 Swan, The quote does come from the link, you'll need to scroll down. According to my computer's "find" function, the only instance of "universe creates" comes from "One of the presumptions of The Grand Design is that the universe creates itself." Maybe you could mention the title of the tile (there are six) where the quote appears? Swan, The conservation law applies to isolated systems. I don't think the universe is an isolated system. The universe is — by definition — an isolated system.
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